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Deductions from Wages - Allowed or Not!


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Hello all you Caggers out there.

I have a small problem and I'm wondering if it is legal or not.

What has happened is that I have received a PCN (Penalty Charge Notice) from the City of London for driving my National Express coach in a Bus Lane(!). Whether this is actually allowed or not I am actually contacting Transport For London and the Traffic Commission about . . .

 

But my actual problem is - when I asked my boss about the penalty charge of £65.00 he said, and I quote - "Oh, we'll do what we usually do and pay it, and then take it out of your wages".

 

Now, when I enquired about this with other NX drivers, a Union Rep told me that my employer is only allowed to deduct 3 things from my wages -

1 = Tax, 2 = NI, and 3 = anything from a Court Order.

Is this true? If so, they have been charging me £1.00 each week (as an "Admin Fee") for a Court Order charge out of my wages for 16 weeks now! Is that allowed?

 

Hope you can help, Thanks Leofric.

Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian.

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Just to clarify a couple of things first of all...

 

Who has received the PCN? Is it you personally, or the company who owns the coach you were driving?

 

Is there any contractual provision between you and your employer, or have you given your prior written agreement, that they may deduct money from your wages in this circumstance?

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Now, when I enquired about this with other NX drivers, a Union Rep told me that my employer is only allowed to deduct 3 things from my wages -

1 = Tax, 2 = NI, and 3 = anything from a Court Order.

Is this true? If so, they have been charging me £1.00 each week (as an "Admin Fee") for a Court Order charge out of my wages for 16 weeks now! Is that allowed?

Leofric.

 

I am presuming that this is for an Attachment of Earnings order? If so, then yes, the employer is allowed to charge a £1 administration fee per payment in respect of the order and this is a permitted deduction which goes hand in hand with the Order itself.

 

As for the point about the Bus Lane fine, then as Rachel says, we need to know specifically what your contract says relating to deductions in respect of fines incurred during the course of doing your job. Most driving jobs and company car policies do contain clauses which enable an employer to recover such things.

Any advice given is done so on the assumption that recipients will also take professional advice where appropriate.

 

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Thanks for the quick reply folks.

RachelMD - The PCN is addressed to my employer ( and even states clearly across the top "Do not pass on to the driver"), only the envelope that my copy was in had my name written upon it. Also, if it is a Company Fine and not a personal one, then they should not deduct anything from me. I have also contacted TFL (Transport For London) about this too.

RachelMD & Sidewinder - There is nothing in my contract about the deduction of monies for fines or whatever, and I never gave them permission to deduct monies for the admin fee.

 

So, if my employer IS allowed to deduct monies for the admin fee, then that person who taps a couple of keys and the deduction is applied, is actually getting paid twice to do the job! Lucky them.

Leofric.

Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian.

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Just to be clear, Leofric, the admin fee matter, where you say the empployer has been taking money from your wages for the past 16 weeks, is a seperate matter to the PCN?

 

With regards to the PCN, if there is no contractual provision allowing the employer to deduct money from your wages in this situation then they can't legally do so.

I'd imagine you could be disciplined though for incurring fines whilst driving.

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Presumably what your employer has is a Notice To Owner? That being the case, there should be a section where the owner can pass liability to the driver, but the charge remains with the owner (or something like that....). The peculiarities of Bus Lane penalties, NTOs etc might be one where you would benefit from asking the question in the Parking & Traffic Offences Forum, but just from reading around it does not seem that coaches can use the majority of bus lanes in London as they are for TFL routes only.

 

As far as deducting this from your wages is concerned they can only do this where there is either a contractual or statutory provision to do so. The £1 admin fee is contained within the statutory provision with regard to Court orders (to cover processing and posting the cheque which needs to be sent to the Court every month), and if you don't challenge this PCN successfully and then don't pay it, it would presumably end up with a Court imposed fine which could then allow them if still unpaid and an attachment imposed, to also deduct this from wages.

 

It shouldn't be automatic though and you should have the option of paying this yourself, or reimbursing your employer in full if they pay the charge on your behalf.

Any advice given is done so on the assumption that recipients will also take professional advice where appropriate.

 

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What gets me about the PCN is that is says clearly across the top 'DO NOT PASS THIS ON TO THE DRIVER', and is actually addressed to my employer and not me. I understand that this is a Company Fine not a personal one. I think CAB advice may be required too.

 

RachelMD - yes, the 'admin fee' is in regards to an unpaid Council Tax Court Order.

Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian.

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What gets me about the PCN is that is says clearly across the top 'DO NOT PASS THIS ON TO THE DRIVER', and is actually addressed to my employer and not me

 

But why would it say anything else? The Regs in London mean that the liability for PCNs rests with the Registered Keeper, not with the Driver unless the RK makes representation that the vehicle concerned was not owned by him at the time of the offence, or was not being used with his permission. The RK may consult with the driver in order to establish whether there are grounds to challenge the contravention, but liability for the charge remains with the RK, therefore the PCN, or at least responsibility for paying it may not be passed on to the driver.

 

Although the RK is responsible for paying the charge, as in your case, providing that he has a means of doing so, he then recovers the amount from the driver. In some circumstances that may be asking him very nicely for the money, but where this is unsuccessful, the employer may choose to deduct it from the employee's wages providing that there is a contractual right to do so. Therefore you should still have the options available of either challenging the grounds for the PCN being issued, or paying the charge and sorting out with the employer how this will be reimbursed.

 

It's a pain, I know, but if you feel thee are grounds to dispute the contravention, then you had best hurry up.

Any advice given is done so on the assumption that recipients will also take professional advice where appropriate.

 

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I have checked my contract, there is NOTHING in it about the paying back of fines, none whatsoever!!!

 

PS - I have contacted TFL about this as well, but surprise, surprise, the response is not exactly forthcoming. ;o)

Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian.

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It would suggest that if the liability for the fine lies with the registered keeper, then the driver (employee) would not be the subject of the court order, and therefore it would be an unlawful deduction.

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It would suggest that if the liability for the fine lies with the registered keeper, then the driver (employee) would not be the subject of the court order, and therefore it would be an unlawful deduction.

 

Yes Cyberprog, it seems that I should NEVER pay this fine.

The PCN, on page 1, next to my employer's address, it says "YOU ARE LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR DEALING WITH THIS NOTICE. DO NOT PASS IT ON TO THE DRIVER". And, on page 2 it also says "DO NOT PASS THIS NOTICE TO THE DRIVER OR HIRER. As the registered owner/keeper of the vehicle. you are legally liable for the PCN even if you were not the driver at the time.".

 

What really galls me is the fact that yesterday (the 23rd July) I went in to work as usual to find my wage packet on the side waiting for me, but it seemed a bit bulkier than normal, so, I opened it to find a letter attached to my wage slip. This letter is a document authorising my employer to deduct the £65 from my wages, but I had to sign it!!! I didn't, I just threw it back saying 'no way!'.

I then checked my wageslip to discover that they had already deducted the money!!! So, they took the money and then asked for my permission! Grrrr!

(I would like to point out that I now have a photocopy of this dated letter of authorisation, without my signature!)

Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian.

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Presumably what your employer has is a Notice To Owner? That being the case, there should be a section where the owner can pass liability to the driver, but the charge remains with the owner (or something like that....). The peculiarities of Bus Lane penalties, NTOs etc might be one where you would benefit from asking the question in the Parking & Traffic Offences Forum, but just from reading around it does not seem that coaches can use the majority of bus lanes in London as they are for TFL routes only.

 

As far as deducting this from your wages is concerned they can only do this where there is either a contractual or statutory provision to do so. The £1 admin fee is contained within the statutory provision with regard to Court orders (to cover processing and posting the cheque which needs to be sent to the Court every month), and if you don't challenge this PCN successfully and then don't pay it, it would presumably end up with a Court imposed fine which could then allow them if still unpaid and an attachment imposed, to also deduct this from wages.

 

It shouldn't be automatic though and you should have the option of paying this yourself, or reimbursing your employer in full if they pay the charge on your behalf.

 

Sidewinder - there is nothing on the PCN which allows the employer to pass the charge on to the driver, I checked!

What annoys me is the fact that I haven't even been given the chance to contest the PCN, they have just paid it.

Just for reference, the road in question comes up from the Embankment onto London Bridge, and as you turn off the Embankment onto the road in question there is absolutely nothing warning about the LT Bus Lane at the top! Other vehicles may be able to turn around on Arthur Street but a 15 foot bus is another matter! ;o)

Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian.

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So they've made an unauthorised deduction from your wages.

Formal grievance time. Do you know what to do?

Yep, a deduction BEFORE my approval!

No, I have no idea what to do next, but I have told them to put it back in to my wages. Also, just for reference, I am actually leaving the company this Sunday (the 30th), would this affect my chances of suing them or whatever?

The reasons are many-fold, but primarily it is due to the fact that our wages are so low the toilet attendants at London Victoria Coach Station are on more money than us and they don't have the responsibility of carrying 40-odd passengers in and out of London on a daily basis!!! I can actually earn more Night Filling at my local Tesco's.

Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian.

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Send a letter by recorded delivery. Headline it LETTER BEFORE ACTION

 

State that their deduction is an unlawful deduction of wages, contrary to Section 13 Employment Rights Act 1996.

Calculate any losses you have incurred and add that to the amount owed. So bank charges, DD's etc.

Also add 8% interest p.a.

Give them 7 days to pay.

 

Leaving won't affect this at all.

Bear in mind, were they to subsequently give a bad reference because you're claiming this money back from them, you'd probably have a claim against them at employment tribunal.

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Just a little update.

I waited a week to see if my employer's would put the money back into my wages, and as per my latest wage slip of today (the 28th July 2011) they have not.

I have also (today) contacted my local Employment Tribunal group(!).

Let's see what happens next!

(I haven't done the 'letter before action' yet either.)

Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian.

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What do you mean by 'local employment tribunal group'? Your regional office of employment tribunal?

 

You need to make every effort to resolve this matter with your employer before making an application to employment tribunal.

If you don't, you could well end up having to pay your employers legal costs.

You could also reasonably lose your job.

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When we get notice of fines for any of our drivers it usually does say "do not give to the driver" but there is a section where the company has to fill in the driver's details and then send back to the issuing body. They then send the notice to the driver who has to pay the fine. Was there anywhere on the form for your company to fill in your details ?

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When we get notice of fines for any of our drivers it usually does say "do not give to the driver" but there is a section where the company has to fill in the driver's details and then send back to the issuing body. They then send the notice to the driver who has to pay the fine. Was there anywhere on the form for your company to fill in your details ?

There is nothing on the PCN paperwork giving my employer the option to pass it on to me anywhere. If there was, they would have done it at the drop of a hat!

 

Also, as of today (29-07-11), I have in my hand right now the Letter Before Action I have written, and I will be handing it in by hand when I go into work this morning! (I'll also get a photocopy of it too). ;o)

Then we'll see what happens.

 

I also forgot to mention that my 7 days notice finishes this Sunday (the 31st July), and yesterday I received a text from the office asking if I would finish on Saturday. This is because on the Sunday I was supposed to be doing an overnight in Cambridge, returning home in the evening of Monday. Now they have to pay someone extra to travel light to Cambridge to begin where I will finish off.

Just for the record I said no!

Edited by Leofric1313

Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian.

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Surely a Bus is a bus, no matter what? Even when it's a posh Bus that we call a Coach...

 

No it depends on the TRO that establishes the bus lane... some bus lanes are only for 'local' buses and others are only for 'scheduled services ' ...

 

it appears the OP may have fallen foul of a 'local buses only' bus lane ...

 

as for whether they can deduct for the PCN depends on the contract the OP works under

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No it depends on the TRO that establishes the bus lane... some bus lanes are only for 'local' buses and others are only for 'scheduled services ' ...

 

it appears the OP may have fallen foul of a 'local buses only' bus lane ...

 

as for whether they can deduct for the PCN depends on the contract the OP works under

 

 

As previously mentioned, there is absolutely no provision in my contract for the recovery of traffic fines or similar.

Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian.

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UPDATE -

I have received a letter from my employer basically saying that they are NOT going to give me the money back, and that they seem to compare the incident with a speeding fine!

I am picking up my last payslip today (4th Aug) and will see if they have put the money back! . . . and then it's a trip to the local CAB!!!

Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian.

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Hello all you Caggers out there.

I have a small problem and I'm wondering if it is legal or not.

What has happened is that I have received a PCN (Penalty Charge Notice) from the City of London for driving my National Express coach in a Bus Lane(!). Whether this is actually allowed or not I am actually contacting Transport For London and the Traffic Commission about . . .

 

But my actual problem is - when I asked my boss about the penalty charge of £65.00 he said, and I quote - "Oh, we'll do what we usually do and pay it, and then take it out of your wages".

 

Now, when I enquired about this with other NX drivers, a Union Rep told me that my employer is only allowed to deduct 3 things from my wages -

1 = Tax, 2 = NI, and 3 = anything from a Court Order.

Is this true? If so, they have been charging me £1.00 each week (as an "Admin Fee") for a Court Order charge out of my wages for 16 weeks now! Is that allowed?

 

Hope you can help, Thanks Leofric.

 

Hi,

 

dont know how you can access my comments or submitted script but i raised this issue last week,i have been caught by camera and the fine sent to my company head office then deducted out of my wages without prior warning or notice.

I have done some research into this and so far nothing is 100% clear,its true that an employer can only take the three things you mentioned,however if your contract states (as mine does) that unpaid fines can be deducted then they are entitled to do so.

However as you have union representation you can approach your employer and claim that as they have paid the fine without informing you they have in effect removed your right to appeal the penalty (as in most cases payment of the penalty removes your right to appeal with most London Boroughs),and believe me appealing any penalty is worth while as i have had a 60% success rate in doing so, not quite sure i understand the latter part of your comments regarding the admin fee and charges your employer is making but re: the ticket go through your union rep,i am sure we are not alone in this instance.

I did contact ACAS who stated that i could take my employer to an industrial trib',even if my employer has a contract to deduct my wages for PCN and i am considering doing so,

 

Good Luck.

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