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eBay: Item sold, buyer claims fault but not immediately - Private sale.


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More fun from the auction site!

 

In May I sold a laptop computer, it was listed with Windows XP installed and advertised as working 100%, which it was indeed. It was suitable for upgrade to Windows Vista, and had a Vista key on the base, but I never used Vista on the machine.

 

I advertised the machine as 'Guaranteed to work out of the box ONLY, no ongoing warranty or support provided'.

 

The buyer then installed Windows Vista / 7 on the machine. He emailed me 21 days after the machine was purchased saying there was a fault with the graphics card, due to the card having a 'low power state' within Vista / 7 it would crash when resuming to full power, when 3D applications were launched. The laptop was fine during any other task.

 

I've researched the problem and it does NOT apply to Windows XP, only the Vista / 7 drivers can use this low power state.

 

Anyway, on the 40th day the buyer launched a dispute. I have had my PayPal balance subtracted back to negatives due to the money being placed on hold, and I've submitted a counter case back to the buyer.

 

My argument:

- It was a private sale, Caveat Emptor

- The laptop worked fine under XP, and as it was sold with XP the item did work out of the box as warranted

- I have not misrepresented in any way at all, as I've never used Vista / 7 on this machine.

 

I have already cancelled the card associated with PayPal and cancelled the bank Direct Debit so no payments can be taken.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

By day, computer and mobile phone technical support... by night home mechanic and Rover / MG enthusiast!

 

Cars: 1998 Rover 620ti

Computers: HP nc8430 Business Notebook, Apple iPhone 3GS 16GB

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I would assume that if the computer will not handle the software update then it is the buyers bad luck! just state it was fine brfore uodate!

You need to convince buye/ebay that is the case though!

good luck.

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If it had a Windows Vista product key on the laptop then that shows that the laptop is both upgradeable from XP and capable of running the Vista O/S. What was actually installed after the sale? if it was Windows 7 then this would have been a fresh install as there is no upgrade path from XP -> Windows 7. In my opinion the hardware is not capable of running Windows 7 and should never have been installed. Do you have the DVD's that came with the laptop, the buyer could re-install XP from those to the "out of the box"

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His argument is that he doesn't want to use Windows XP, he always intended to use it with Windows Vista / 7.

 

The laptop is very high specification. :)

By day, computer and mobile phone technical support... by night home mechanic and Rover / MG enthusiast!

 

Cars: 1998 Rover 620ti

Computers: HP nc8430 Business Notebook, Apple iPhone 3GS 16GB

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Xp is much more stable tham vista ( crap ); w7 is much better but uses huge amount of memory!

what is spec of machine, how old?did it have an integrated grahics card or seperate. not many laptops can handle games etc

what sort of money we talking about here- laptop games machines > £900+

If that was his intention he should of checked machine would be ok for it.

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It was for around £350, and has 'proper' offboard graphics. It was more than up to the job in hand.

 

My reasoning is that it DOES work fine under Windows XP and the buyer has confirmed this, and this is how I sold it. How was I meant to know it would not work under Vista / 7 if I have never used those operating systems?

 

As I'm a private seller, surely Caveat Emptor would apply here as I did not misrepresent the item.

By day, computer and mobile phone technical support... by night home mechanic and Rover / MG enthusiast!

 

Cars: 1998 Rover 620ti

Computers: HP nc8430 Business Notebook, Apple iPhone 3GS 16GB

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As I'm a private seller, surely Caveat Emptor would apply here as I did not misrepresent the item.

 

Think again.

 

Far from being private, sales on eBay are public, available to any member subject to the eBay User Agreement, hence the consumer protection legislation.

 

In particular, for instance, a trader must identify himself and provide a geographical address, the omission of which is a strict liability criminal offence.

 

A "business" includes "any undertaking in the course of which goods or services are supplied otherwise than free of charge". This is defined by Section 210 of the Enterprise Act.

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His argument is that he doesn't want to use Windows XP, he always intended to use it with Windows Vista / 7.

 

The laptop is very high specification. :)

 

Tell him that you bought a new car and put water in the petrol tank and it wont run. Unless drivers etc are availiable for a specific O/S an upgrade is not reccomended

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tell the buyer and paypal to swivel

 

ignore any threats from paypal referring to debt collectors as they would never get a court order.

 

An order to what effect?

 

The seller already undertook to allow eBay to reimburse when a dispute is resolved in the buyer’s favour, and to have a reimbursement method on file with eBay at all times. This is a part of the User Agreement that every member subscribes to before the event.

 

Wouldn't wish to endorse a flagrant breach of contract, a misleading commercial practice, nor any suggestion to the effect that the seller is a criminal, deliberately devious or dishonest, would we?

 

:roll:

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As I'm a private seller, surely Caveat Emptor would apply here as I did not misrepresent the item.

When you sell on ebay you are agreeing to ebay's T&Cs and take the risk that they will find against you in any dispute. Being a private seller means you are not subject to Distance Selling Regs, not that you are exempt from ebay's own rules.

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I feel you may lose this case because ebay/paypal always find in favor of the buyer. It's their stupid rules that screw people over. Remove any direct debits and cancel any cards you may have linked to paypal because if they refund, and they normally do, they will try and steal your money to get back what they stupidly hand out.

 

Ignor all debt collection letters, they will eventually give up.

 

You won't be able to sell again on ebay using your name.

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This is a myth, repeated so often that it is hard to believe that it is demonstrably not what the law has to say:

 

Being a private seller means you are not subject to Distance Selling Regs, not that you are exempt from ebay's own rules.

 

:roll:

 

The Regulations clearly do apply to a private person because

 

“operator of a means of communication” means any public or private person whose business involves making one or more means of distance communication available to suppliers;

:cool:

 

According to section 4:

 

These Regulations apply, subject to regulation 6, to distance contracts other than excepted contracts
so a party to the contract is bound by the Regulations.

 

As to whether or not a sale on eBay is a distance contract, the OFT's Guide for Businesses on Distance Selling confirms that

 

How do the DSRs apply to auction sites on the internet?

 

2.19 This depends on specific circumstances, for example:

 

• the contractual relationship between the website provider and

the seller

• whether the seller is acting as a supplier within the meaning of

the DSRs

• whether the seller is operating under an organised distance sales

or service provision scheme, and

• whether the buyer is a consumer within the meaning of the DSRs.

Point by point:

 

— The contractual relationship between the website provider and

the seller is exactly the same for every eBay member, the User Agreement.

 

— All the sellers on eBay act in the same way, by listing their items to sell.

 

— All the sellers on eBay operate under an organised distance sales

or service provision scheme, the service that eBay provides.

 

— The buyer is a consumer within the meaning explained by s.210 of the Enterprise Act, according to which a reference must be construed: an individual supplied to by an undertaking in the course of which goods or services are supplied otherwise than free of charge.

 

I have yet to see a seller's defence, a reasoned explanation of how they intend to prove an exemption in the face of that, nor do I expect to. In legal terms, it's a non starter.

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Its not clear whether this problem is actually a physical fault with the card or just that the drivers dont work with Vista/7 (which is quite likely).I would state to Paypal that everything was checked working fine, unfortunately Paypal/Ebay do sometimes make wierd decisions and certainly do tend to favour buyers.However as also mentioned above, they are unlikley to ever recover any money from you shou,ld they decide in the buyers favour, but you will be stuck with a negative balance Paypal account. It is possible (as I and many others have found out) to set up another Paypal (and even Ebay account) but this may be against tgheir T & C's and sometimes involves using a different email/bank account, etc.You are not alone, its a pity, becuase Ebay/Paypal is great for buying used PC bits n bobs but as a seller you almost inevitably run into the problem you have described..I know I have !The best you can do is to describe items honestly, but you appear to have done that !Andy

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It does all depend on the description. If the seller stated on the ebay listing as he did here that

It was suitable for upgrade to Windows Vista, and had a Vista key on the base

or if it's an accepted spec for that particular machine then it's no surprise for ebay to find in the buyer's favour.

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This appears to be the gist of the issue:

 

The laptop is very high specification. :)

 

Were it rather to be declared that it fails to cope with Windows Vista / 7, that is not what I would call a high specification.

 

Without the item description to see, it is reckless to say what was reasonably to be expected, but if you rather pretend that there is nothing at all to answer for, the sooner you are banned from eBay, the better, which will of course happen if they reimburse the buyer and you fail to cover that.

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But almost any PC (with the exception of very old slow PC's) can be upgraded to Vista or 7, it doesnt really mean anything.

That's what I'd have thought but I'm no expert - exactly the opposite. As a technophobe, if I saw mention of Vista in a listing in any context other than obviously negative I would assume it meant it would be OK. If it wasn't mentioned at all then fine but if it was and it shouldn't be installed (which is what seems to be the opinion of those who know) then the buyer has not been unreasonable.

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True, he advertised it as being capable of an update to Vista, but the buyer hasn't installed Vista, they've installed Windows 7, which from what I'm reading was never advertised as compatible.

It seems to me that the buyer has no case for returning the item and getting a refund, especially from a private seller, but as has been said, eBay and Paypal don't always tend to use common sense when making these decisions, they take a very American attitude towards things.

 

It sounds to me like this isn't a physical problem with the machine, but more an issue with the graphics drivers. Has the buyer tried getting the latest driver from the website of the laptop manufacturer rather than the graphics card manufacturer? Sometimes the drviers need to be tweaked by the laptop manufacturer to work with the machines.

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Its worth mentioning that sometimes in grey areas, Paypal will refund the buyer themselves and not take any money from the seller, Ive had this happen and it leaves everyone happy..except maybe Paypal..but they can afford it ! :)Andy

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One may alternatively opine that Paypal are that much more likely to favour a regular trader with a lot of business (i.e. profit) to offer to Paypal.

 

A casual seller who according to his own account is not so keen to play along with Paypal would have to be mad to expect them to fork out to tide him over.

 

:roll:

 

 

P.S.

 

In the mean time

 

It seems to me that the buyer has no case for returning the item and getting a refund, especially from a private seller, ....

 

The User Agreement, i.e. exactly the same terms and conditions apply to every eBay member.

 

Which part of that is so hard to get?

Edited by perplexity
P.S.
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