So I have my ET hearing date...

[withallmyhart]

Hi, sorry to keep banging on about them but when I used the CAB when representing my partner in a tribunal they were fantastic, May isn't that far away when it comes to the difference between sorting out this matter correctly or rushing into it and getting it wrong. Like I said, when I used them they were fantastic, always there to help after the first appointment and gave brilliant advice and best of all it was free, oh and we won the case out right. Bide your time and wait for your appointment.

[Warbeard]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I've got another legal company that is looking at it now, but I have to wait for the appeal process to finish. And as all good and honourable employers do, this will be delayed for the longest possible time. I calculate that I will have approximately 2 weeks to get the ET1 form in if I want to get solicitors to help. I'm still going to get the CAB's help too, and anyone else who offers, but I am determined to win this case and must do everything I can to max my chances. Just the fact that they have not only cost me my job and clients, but they have also tried to damage my reputation in such a nasty way means I cannot walk away.

[withallmyhart]

Good luck with it. Maybe if more people were like you companies wouldn't feel they could get away with some of the things they put their employees through.

You give them what for and I hope you get suitably compensate and your reputation is repaired.

[Atlas01]

Hmn, don't know whether to agree or disagree with the others, it's quite apparent you popped your head above the parapet and it got knocked off.

 

Bottom line is can you PROVE there was a breach of haswa in relation to the "recommended" temperatures clearly being under the "recommended" limits. H&S leg is clear that employees should not suffer detriment, can you show it and not just say in my opinion because unfortunately your opinion is irrelevant.

 

When the employer dismissed the grievance over this how did they do so, did they ignore it? state temps were within limits etc?

 

My concern here is that your not an amateur at this from what you have written, if this was me i'd have called in the EHO/HSE after the first grievance being rejected if i was so sure i was correct, by not doing this i lean towards it being borderline or there is a possible remedy given you didn't like (i'm in pure guess country here)

 

 

 

If you can show the request was unreasonable then you may be able to defend it, if not and the employer cannot be proven to have ignored H&S guidance it think your screwed.

 

In addition failure to leave was not very good looking at it, the employer if you appeal this will do their upmost to paint you as a nutter to the extent that they had to call the police, you have a huge papertrail that has gone around your issue, can this be skewed to make you at best look confrontational (employment wise) at worst aggressive.

 

Add the threat to a 6 year old girl to this and you can see what they are trying to make you

 

Where are your witnessess for any appeal to back up the heat/cold issues and clothing, remember the average time a worker in your situation is regarded as a martyr for their workmates is 1.2 milliseconds, the time they are usually prepared to testify for you is half this!

 

was your extra clothing/hat appropriate, eg it didn't have **** you written on it, was it customer facing, why did you have aircon constantly on your head

 

My final query, had you been telling your workmates how you were "fighting" the establishment and such, i'm just looking for the missing pieces of the jigsaw.

[Warbeard]

I'll answer best I can

 

-the grievance from july 2010 was dismissed, no action or remedy. The grievance from nov 2010, no action or remedy. I appealed that, the result from that listed courses of actions like uniform review, additional risk assessments etc all while dismissing my grievance.

 

-the clothing I wore had some random brand names on, nothing offensive.

 

-I didn't leave because they were docking my pay if I left. The police were threatened to be called almost immeadiately.

 

-I'm not sure what to say about not being an amateur, I've done alot of reading! In hindsight I shouldve called EH, but I did not know this at the time.

 

-I know staff won't help, but I have lots of client witnesses.

 

-The reason for the ac is it is a gym.

[employmenthelpplz]

Not sure if this is relevant, but I am going through an ET claim for detriment for a protected disclosure and on meeting with my solicitors last week he advises that a recent case at the appeal tribunal stage involving an NHS hospital ruled that it is upto the employer to show that there has not been a detriment and not for the employee to show that there has.

The solicitor stated that this goes against other rulings, but its the most upto date one about detriments and therefore very important.

As I said, not sure if it relates only to protected disclosure detriment or other detriments that are protected like hsa

[employmenthelpplz]

Here is some information on it:

http :// www .thompsons.law.co.uk /ltext/lelr-weekly-201-detrimental- effect. htm

 

 

(remove spaces)

[Warbeard]

I realise I didn't answer all of Atlas' questions. Sorry about that.

 

-THe incident that happened in Nov 2010 with the hat, it was acknowedged that the temperature was 13C (I was able to measure this using equipment at the club). This was eventually covered in the grievance appeal for that incident as they mentioned new risk assessments in case the temperature drop happened again. However I did not see evidence of this, remarkably enough the appeal letter was dated 29/01/11. The date I was escorted out by the police for not removing a top? 29/01/11. The incident that happened in Jan 2011 I was unable to measure the temperature as since the Nov 2010 all the thermometers had gone missing. They have stated that they measured the temperature that day and that it was 16-18C, yet I believe this is a flat out lie.

 

I know that my opinion doesn't count for much, but there is also the gov guidelines on thermal discomfort, which list reasons for needing further risk assessments. Many of these reasons (just 2 is enough to warrant further assessment) include if there is cold air being blown onto staff, seasonal variance of temperature and quite importantly, staff complaining of thermal discomfort.

 

The ONLY time a remedy was even slightly appraoched was the Nov 2010 incident, when by the time I was already being kicked out, they had told a different member of staff to put a coat in the gym and then say to me "I've brought your coat", to which I had no idea what he was talking about. I think they hung the coat up on a door.

 

They have also tried to say that they 'issued' me with a fleece, when in actual fact the fleece I wore was part of the old uniform which I kept hold of and then wore when cold, as the new uniform does not have any warm layers.

 

At no point have they officailly tackled the problem, other than to single me out and punish me for doing what everyone in the whole department is doing.

[Atlas01]

Hmn, i think your not in a good position, without clear evidence of blatant disregard of H&S your starting position is very weak, add to that the fact they will say they have given clothing (fleece) the employer will argue they considered and had measures in place.

 

I took the time last week to speak to a colleague who managed a gym in a previous life over this issue, his initial appraisal was that not only would the gym not be under this temperature because the users would complain but also that if his staff were standing under air con he'd be telling them to move around and not stand in one spot, he stated that this wasn;t for a H&S reason (cold air on the head) but becuase in the main the staff he managed who did this were "work shy"

 

add that to the conduct issues they have cited (police/threats) and your case ends up in tatters in my book

 

This may have no relevance to your case but i'm pointing it out because it may well be part of your employers defence down the line!

 

Good luck but i'm afraid i really don't fancy your chances.

[Warbeard]

I totally understand you saying this Atlas. All I can say is that I'm not work shy. The air con would blow in spots stronger than others, but can be felt pretty much anywhere, as it's designed to keep people cool. The users DO complain. I have a large list of people who will attest to the cold in the gym. Problem is, complaints tend to fall on deaf ears as the problem lies in the nature of the air con and temperature regulation and that it requires a complete replacment. They are just not willing to spend the money. I have proof they have ignored staff complaints of cold for over a year, so however much weight that has I don't know.

 

The police issue is easily proven to be blown out of proportion, along with obvious lies in statements regarding the police and evidence. I just need to be able to convince someone who doesn't know that this is the case.

[peatdog]

I would take them for unfair dismissal at a tribunal, the judges do want to know what led up to the events, I know this as I have just been to tribunal. I won my constructive dismissal case and represented myself. getting all your documents from the under data protection would be the best move but dont let them know why incase some go missing as in my case. What the judges want are facts and especially where evidence can be provided. In my judgement they stated "the tribunal has rarely seen a case as clear cut for constructive dismissal" i was so badly treated by the managers that it was unbelivable, but they were not so confident when in court giving evidence.

Anyway best of luck, remmeber facts that are relivent, and in order no jumping dates when telling your story

[Warbeard]

I'm just going through the CAB at the moment, as others have said they are very helpful.

[withallmyhart]

They are fantastic at helping you get everything ready for you to represent your self, if you don't feel comfortable talking for yourself find a friend that could help.......... I would help but I'm sure you would find that strange seem as though I'm not much mo

re experienced in this than you, plus you'll be better at getting your own point across than any one else.

Have you had your meeting with CAB yet? If so how did it go?

[Bigredbus]

Hi,

 

At what stage are you in your proceedings now?

 

Your post raises some questions:

 

a) What position do you occupy which needs wearing uniform?

b) Is it a customer facing position?

c) What is the company's policy in terms of uniform?

d) What kind of temperatures are we talking here?

e) Have you been contacted by the Police in relation to the alledged offences?

[jackieandwayne]

you get some time to take your revenge and its a dish best served cold with plenty of planning

 

Very very true, I am in the middle of something with my former employers which doesn't involve a tribunal, but a massive personal injury claim. I may win or I may not, but I really don't care. The former employer are goingto go through the mill and I am going to enjoy it.

 

Like your fears of your career being damaged, my career was ended when I expected to have another 18 years. So for that reason I am going to enjoy this just that little bit more. If Iget compnesation then that is a plus. If someone is prevented from having the same happen to them as happened to me, because oif what I am doing, that would be a bigger plus.

 

I don't care what they say, what they do or what they threaten. Sometimes real wrong is done against you and it just has to be put right.

 

You keep going with help from here.

[Warbeard]

Hello all

 

The CAB have looked at the dismissal letter and said that it is very well written, and that if a tribunal looked at that and nothing else the tribunal would see nothing wrong. Pretty much as people on here have suggested already. I don't think I'm going to get any more free help (apart from you guys!) so now I'm looking at lawyers. I've been given some names and numbers, I guess it depends if they think it's worth pursueing.

 

Obviously I feel it's worth pursueing, as the position this has put me in is back to the wall.

 

To answer bigredbus's questions:

 

a) What position do you occupy which needs wearing uniform?

-Working in a commercial gym

b) Is it a customer facing position?

-Yes

c) What is the company's policy in terms of uniform?

-The uniform is to be worn at all times in completion. This in itself is quite silly, as part of our job role is teaching classes like spin or kick boxing. None of the gym staff wear their uniform for teaching these classes, it just isn't practical. In the summer when it's hot, all the staff (including the gym manager) wear only one layer of the uniform (there are two visible layers of different colour) and in winter when it's cold all the gym staff wear extra non-uniform layers.

d) What kind of temperatures are we talking here?

-I recorded them in November 2010 as low as 13C, that doesn't take into account the extra wind chill factor provided by cold air from the a/c.

e) Have you been contacted by the Police in relation to the alledged offences?

-No. I contacted the police to find out more, the Sgt in question then phoned me to answer my questions. He told me that he was taking no action.

[Warbeard]

Oh and in terms of where I am now, I have my dismissal appeal meeting finally set for next week. Only two months after I was dismissed! They know how to delay someone...

 

I have no doubt that they will not give me the appeal decision until after the ET1 deadline has passed.

[Bigredbus]

Hello all

 

The CAB have looked at the dismissal letter and said that it is very well written, and that if a tribunal looked at that and nothing else the tribunal would see nothing wrong. Pretty much as people on here have suggested already. I don't think I'm going to get any more free help (apart from you guys!) so now I'm looking at lawyers. I've been given some names and numbers, I guess it depends if they think it's worth pursueing.

 

Obviously I feel it's worth pursueing, as the position this has put me in is back to the wall.

 

To answer bigredbus's questions:

 

a) What position do you occupy which needs wearing uniform?

-Working in a commercial gym

b) Is it a customer facing position?

-Yes

c) What is the company's policy in terms of uniform?

-The uniform is to be worn at all times in completion. This in itself is quite silly, as part of our job role is teaching classes like spin or kick boxing. None of the gym staff wear their uniform for teaching these classes, it just isn't practical. In the summer when it's hot, all the staff (including the gym manager) wear only one layer of the uniform (there are two visible layers of different colour) and in winter when it's cold all the gym staff wear extra non-uniform layers.

d) What kind of temperatures are we talking here?

-I recorded them in November 2010 as low as 13C, that doesn't take into account the extra wind chill factor provided by cold air from the a/c.

e) Have you been contacted by the Police in relation to the alledged offences?

-No. I contacted the police to find out more, the Sgt in question then phoned me to answer my questions. He told me that he was taking no action.

 

Let's take it point by point...

 

a) Uniforms are provided and must be worn at all times, as you work in a customer facing environment.

b) 13 Celsius is an uncomfortable temperature to work in for 8 hours.

c) No action is to be taken by the Police.

 

1) How unreasonable is it to wear a hat and/or 'extra layer' on top of your uniform if this one doesn't protect you from the cold temperatures in your workplace? and how appropriate and sufficient is it in such temperatures? (when others add 'layers' to their on uniform)

2) How disproportionate that manager's actions were when she asked you to leave the premises when she requested that you take your hat off?

3) What threats did you expose her daughter to?

4) In your experience of this all situation, what do you think is, or would be, the underlying reason for your company to want you out/dismissed?

[Warbeard]

Hello bigredbus

 

I'm not sure how to answer those questions.

 

1)The extra layers were not sufficient enough to stop my hands from being so cold that I found it hard to write.

2)When the manager asked me to remove the clothing at only one point in the first incident was I made aware of them offering any clothing themselves, and that was when I was already leaving after being threatened with the police. I in no way believe that police involvement was needed, suggested or otherwise. They were telling me to leave the building and forfeit pay, which does not seem reasonable at all.

3)I allegedly said to a member (this member apparantly organises cleaning for the manager's house. Go figure) that I would get Sally back for the way she has treated me and my friend through her daughter. However, the 'witness' cannot remember when this conversation took place, and has given two different versions of events only three days apart in her statements.

4) The underlying reason for all this is because I was being subjected to some bullying type treatment from one of the other managers, I had put in complaints of his behaviour and reported him forging h&S paperwork. I also lodged a complaint how the manager had sacked someone in my department. The suspensions began just a couple of weeks after I filed these complaints. Everyone is terrified of the general manager because she has such a rep for sacking people just for not liking them, so people will lie and tread on egg shells around herr so as to not incur her wrath.

[Bigredbus]

Hello bigredbus

 

I'm not sure how to answer those questions.

 

1)The extra layers were not sufficient enough to stop my hands from being so cold that I found it hard to write. [point to argue]

2)When the manager asked me to remove the clothing at only one point in the first incident was I made aware of them offering any clothing themselves [point to argue], and that was when I was already leaving after being threatened with the police. I in no way believe that police involvement was needed, suggested or otherwise. They were telling me to leave the building and forfeit pay [point to argue], which does not seem reasonable at all.

3)I allegedly said to a member (this member apparantly organises cleaning for the manager's house. Go figure) that I would get Sally back for the way she has treated me and my friend through her daughter. However, the 'witness' cannot remember when this conversation took place, and has given two different versions of events only three days apart in her statements (do you have copies of statements?) [point to argue].

4) The underlying reason for all this is because I was being subjected to some bullying type treatment from one of the other managers, I had put in complaints of his behaviour and reported him forging h&S paperwork. I also lodged a complaint how the manager had sacked someone in my department. The suspensions began just a couple of weeks after I filed these complaints. Everyone is terrified of the general manager because she has such a rep for sacking people just for not liking them, so people will lie and tread on egg shells around herr so as to not incur her wrath. [point to argue]

 

You here, by yourself, found out the points you need to argue with your ex-employer. Those are the points you need to argue in your appeal.

[Warbeard]

Hello again

 

I had my dismissal appeal meeting today. I was expecting it to be a bog standard reading of letters and answering questions, but instead it has opened a whole new can of worms.

 

One of the major points in my defence is that all the staff in my department have worn extra layers when it is cold, yet I am the only one being treated in this manner. They told me at the hearing today of new statements from staff that basically said that nobody wore extra layers except me. I was a bit upset as one of the people I'm still good friends with. So I gave them a phone call after the meeting....

 

Turns out they said no such thing, and are willing to provide me with another statement saying the truth and refuting the version given by the employers hr people. In fact, I have never seen any of these statements made by other staff in my department, yet they have been referanced by the hr people for some time now. I am quite shocked to be coming away from an appeal meeting with NEW evidence in my favour, this late into the case. I've requested the statements that have been allegedy used against me, while I am currently building a portfolio of staff and customers statements telling the truth that support my side of the story.

 

Interesting stuff! (for me)

[Warbeard]

Hello everyone, just chiming in again.

 

Still waiting for my appeal decision, and now I have just two weeks to file my ET1. I am not going to use a lawyer just yet, as it is an expense I really can't afford right now (that's not an excuse, life is crazy at the moment with a new baby on the way and a new expansion to the business).

 

I'm going to start filling in the ET1 form this week, are there any tips or guidelines from experienced peeps on here for that job? The main thrust of my arguement will be unfair treatment, is there a term for this, as 'victimisation' means something else in employment law? (Although I will be including that angle also)

 

Cheers in advance

[Warbeard]

Hello all

 

I have sent my ET1 and it has been accepted, the hearing is on 7th October (fast!) I have the list of things to do from the ET judge and I was just wondering if I could get some advice on some aspects please?

 

The original thread was titled 'how strong is my unfair dismissal claim?'

 

I got my dismissal appeal decision letter approximately 3 days after my ET1 deadline, co-incidence? I waited until the very evening of the deadline to give them as much time as possible to give me the result, but I never expected them to get it to me before. Typical behaviour really.

[rebel11]

Thread merged.

[honeybee13]

Hello again. Are you able to tell us what kind of things to do have been requested please?

 

My best, HB