Software return

[woolfie]

About two years ago I bought a piece of software from PC World. I cant remeber the exact name but it was something like 'DVD Bunrner' After reading the blurb on the back of the box I decided it was exactly what I was looking for (i wanted to back up my DVD film collection!! (wink)) Anyway took software home and tried for three hours to install it but it wouldnt install.

 

Went on the net and discovered a forum with over 200 complaints. Infact only one person had managed to install it. So took software back, not fit for purpose it was sold blah blah, but PC World told me that I could have another one the same no refund!! They said the software was fine at which point i told them i was an IT engineer and they were talking nonsense!

 

One manager was sent for and duly arrived. He told me that the software was intended for back up of home movie dvds made on dvd camcorders. But the box says any dvd's i whined! Anyway they wouldnt budge so i went home with usless software! Phoned trading standards and they said they would investigate. They agreed with me and couple of days later got a call from PC World manager (now it was Sir and Mr G*****) about how sorry he was and how he had been concerned and had re-read the box. Yeah whatever!! Got refund and appology with assurance they were going to remove the software.

 

My very long winded point i STICK TO YOUR GUNS. They will try to fob you off. They will try to confuse you with science and legal jargon but remember you can always do the same. There are very few managers who fully understand the sale of goods act so even if your not 100% sure if your in the right dont back down. the worst that can happen is you dont get what you want but if you dont ask you definately wont!!

[gothicf0rm]

yeah. well done if you want to back up dvds then just get dvd shrink. its completely free and does the job nicely even with simple reauthoring tools.

[seylectric]

"Stick to your guns" is very much my way of thinking.

 

It's always worth remembering that managers and staff of banks, companies or whoever almost certainly have no more idea of the law than we do. Their first trick is always to try and fob you off, but probably because they don't know any different in most cases and are simply following company guidelines rather than deliberately trying to outdo you.

 

It's my belief that they often give in quite easily because it's simply easier to do so rather than make life any harder for themselves than it otherwise would be. The bosses who draw up the company guidelines know this, and know that most people will probably give up.

[Whisperwolf]

Salesmen never like goods returned for whatever reason.

 

If a piece of software refuses to install, then I would take it back to the shop you got it. If they give problems, insist on them installing it IN FRONT OF YOU on a shop machine. If they can't install it on a shop machine, you then have grounds to say "Well, you can't install it either so it's obviously faulty - money back please".

 

If they DO manage to install it, then you can investigate whether its a setting on your own machine.

 

A lot of companies try to minimize losses by refusing to refund on opened software because there's a chance that the customer bought it, pirated it and returned it. Insisting that they try installing it on one of their own machines removes any argument if the software won't install on their systems.

[seylectric]

Actually although this is too late for the original poster, it's worth bearing in mind that installation problems can be caused by other programs being open whilst trying to install the software, and by anti-virus software that may be running at the time.

 

"Burning" or "authoring" software is one type that is often affected by AV software, and it may also be affected if you also have another type or brand of similar software installed on the machine. It's generally unlikely that software on general sale will be faulty, it's far more likely to be a compatibility issue or a problem caused by one of the above.

[Whisperwolf]

Additionally, some games won't run if they detect copying software. A good example of this is "The Sims 2" which refuses point blank to run if certain copying software is present on the machine. This is not a defect per se, and could be a grey area when it comes to returning such software.

[cooldrums]

I work in retail in one of these stores mentioned in the main header in fact and having seen this quote. "(I wanted to back up my dvd collection!! (wink))" you know as well as I do there is intent there to break copyright law.

Not defending any of my collegues or wishing to offend anyone here but...

 

*DID YOU READ THE F***ING MANUAL 9 out of 10 people never read the manual before starting to load the software or using electrical equipment. Here is how.

 

Right click you cd rom icon then click explore then find the Read me file or Install notes.How can you work it if you have never read the manual.

 

*Normally there is a support line to call or email to help resolve loading issues.

 

* There is no such thing as faulty software.The programmes are written and tested before even put onto cd other wise there would be a 100% return rate did you try using the licence on the cd and downloading it from the website, if it doesnt work from there its gotta be your machine spec or otherwise your mahine is faulty. A good IT engineer would know this.

 

Ps. Never tell a sales person you work in IT unless you either write software or produce/manufacture equipment. Especially an expreienced sales person, if you get something wrong he automatically knows you are a **** who changes the ink cartridges or fills paper in printers or even help someone find the delete button.

You may have the title of IT manager on yer badge but you DO NOT work in IT.

You work with pcs.

I sell computers I work with them every single day I AM NOT AN IT ENGINEER.

 

*Remember If you do get the sales person or even the techincal guys in pc world to load the software on a pc in store remember you will look stupid if it works.

ECPECIALLY IF YOU SAY YOU ARE IN IT......................

 

Sorry for my litte rant but these are the facts.......

In over 13 years in electrical sales and over 10 years with computers I have NEVER had a piece of software that was faulty or that could not be loaded its normally user error. RTFM

 

MOD: EASY ON THE SWEAR WORDS, PLS.

[Whisperwolf]

While I take on board much of what you say, I do have to take issue with a few points.

 

Firstly, manuals. I *DO* do technical support and work as an engineer with computers professionally, and let me tell you as a reviewer I mark down up to 25% of the total score on bad documentation alone, and there is a LOT of it out there. It's no good saying "read the manual" if the manual is written in pigeon-english or doesn't mention important points. Case in point, I went to a call this week at which the people had purchased a wifi extender. They couldn't get it to work, took it back to PC World, got another one and that wouldn't work either. When I got there, I realised that a tiny sentence listed deep in the instructions that read "Make sure the firmware on your router is up to date" was the key to the problem. Updated the firmware, and hey presto suddenly everything worked - but it DID NOT SAY in the manual how to update the firmware in the router, or even where to check which version. RTFM, fair enough - but that doesn't always provide the answers.

 

Support lines: In an attempt to avoid paying me a fee this very customer had called Belkin (the manufacturer) who had as it turned out not only given bad advice on the setup, telling the people to do something which would actually CAUSE more problems than it solved, and then when it didn't work actually telling them to take the equipment back to PC World because "it must be faulty". Yes, they too missed the firmware update, unsurprisingly considering it only merited ONE sentance in a 43 page manual. Support call centres, particularly those located in different continents, are very much hit and miss, and tend to employ people who will take low wages to work from a script, rather than people who know what they're doing. Moral of the story: Sometimes support lines aren't anywhere as good as they should be. While this isn't the retailer's fault, it's worth bearing in mind when dealing with a customer who has been wound up by a hopeless call centre bod that the combination of an unhelpful salesman and a bad support call can test the patience of a saint. Factor this into dealing with irate customers.

 

Costs: Many support lines are premium rate lines, which when combined with bad manuals can cost the customer a fortune. Many will go and ask the retailer to save money, and whether it's fair or not they WILL expect you to know the answers. Again while not exactly the retailers fault, they're available whereas the phone voice isn't. PC World doesn't exactly help this by also operating a premium rate support line. It makes people feel they're being ripped off, especially if they ring and get the script monkey who doesn't have a clue.

 

Software: Sadly, there IS such a thing as faulty software. Windows is a prime example. So is the game X3: The Threat, which had so many bugs on launch it was unbelievable. Some people still don't have fast internet at home, and can't afford the dial up fees to download 60Mb patches, so, they return the software. In an attempt to meet deadlines and make money, more and more software houses are releasing software too early, still with bugs in it. Some of them will manifest during installation, some will manifest at a later point - but to just say "there's no such thing as faulty software" is naive. NO software will work 100% of the time with the millions of possible combinations of motherboard, memory, processor, graphics card etc etc. Expect faulty software to increase as the greedy houses use ever more draconian anti-copy software, some of which will clash with other draconian anti-copy software. Case in point, The Sims 2 will NOT work on most systems that have Nero 5 or above on, because the software believes if you have the high level drivers you obviously intend to pirate the game, but this does NOT manifest itself until the installation is complete. People getting the game home will be able to install it fine - it's only when they come to play it that it'll all go bad.

 

Salesmen: Not all of them are experts. I had several asking one another where they could get another LED bulb for a torch I brought back. Eventually I was told that the LED had gone (nigh on impossible with LEDs) and given some excuse that sounded good but was intended to get rid of me. What was actually wrong with the torch? One of the batteries was in backwards. Deliberately. They didn't spot it. Moral: yes, there are incompetant customers, but there are also incompetant salesmen.

 

When all said and done, if you buy something from a shop, the contract of purchase is between you and the shop. The shop does not have to sell, and the customer does not have to buy. By making the deal, both parties agree to try and make sure at the end of the day the customer has a working product. There will be some customers who are as thick as the two preverbial planks, but that's life. Blame it on the software, the hardware, the manuals or the customer's lack of expertise - but at the end of the day it still falls to the retailer to make it right.

[Bookworm]

BRAVO!!!

PS to previous poster: Judging people who plan on using copying software which is available for sale legally and profitably everywhere, is, IMO, as bad as bank managers telling us it's OUR fault getting charges when THEY apply them and profit by them.

[seylectric]

Inaccurate or unclear documentation is often the key to software failing to install or work properly. I had no end of problems trying to install my LAN despite following the instructions to the letter. It took quite a bit of research to find out the default settings were inaccurate for my system, but there was nothing in the documentation to suggest that this might be the case.

 

That's a problem solely caused by inaccurate information. I'm not an IT expert either but have considerable experience in installing software and correcting installation problems over the years, and this sort of thing is by no means unusual. The point is many novices would see this as a fault with the software and that's down to poor product support even though the software may not technically be faulty.

 

But to state that there is no such thing as faulty software unfortunately simply proves that the author is indeed no more than a salesman with not even basic technical knowledge. The comment borders on farce. You only need to look at the number of hotfixes issued and the size of Service Pack 2 for XP to realise just how many flaws there must have been in XP when it was released. Why are updates made available for just about every piece of software on the market? To correct bugs and errors of course! (don't confuse updates with upgrades which are usually and enhancement to the previous version of the program).

 

As for the opinion on the buyer's use of the software, get yourself out one day especially in a holiday area and see just how many people are using video cameras. software that comes installed with these devices is often basic or inadequate, especially with older machines and owners often buy Video and DVD copying/authoring software for no other reason than to burn their memories to DVD.

 

I make copies of many of my CDs often to make my own customised discs which I can play in my car. The thought of copying and selling them on has never crossed my mind. Quite frankly how you can sell DVD copying software then have a go at the buyer because he is using the software to copy DVDs with is quite disgraceful. What is he supposed to do with it, use it as a frisbee?

[mcuth]

Software: Sadly, there IS such a thing as faulty software.

 

Indeed - as someone that's been working in tech support for 2 major multinational software companies over the last 6 years, I can fully concur with this......

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[moonie]

I had to take a piece of software back to PC world, I thought it would run on my pc, but I had failed to notice something written in microprint on the box which said 'doesn't support blah blah blah'.

 

When I took it back to customer services and pointed this out, I was told .. "sorry if it isn't faulty I can't replace it and you've opened the wrapping and broken the security seal"

 

So I asked if I could just exchange it for something else.

 

"no sorry you can't, we can't run the risk that you've opened it, copied it and you're now returning it"

 

Talk about make you feel like a criminal. So I stuck to my guns and eventually after alot of haggling the customer service advisor picked up a pen, scratched the cd with it and smiled and said,

 

"now you can return it as it's faulty".

 

I think I'll remember that good advice for next time.

[Rich44]

Although most companies would then say here you go heres another one

 

As for no such thing as faulty software so that'll be why theres no patches or updates ever released for Windows then ffs.

 

Cooldrums can I suggest you remove your head from your backside before having a go at people for buying a legitimate piece of software, wanting to backup your OWN DVDs although technically naughty is a very sensible thing to do esp for things such as Baby Einstein DVDs as theyre £20 each and the amount they get used theyre bound to end up destroyed so its protecting your investment.

 

Faulty software is released all the time its now common place to release sw that still has bugs in it and let your customers beta test it for you.

 

How many support lines have you called that are either 090 numbers or they dont even have a UK presence and you need to call a US number?

 

The programmes are written and tested before even put onto cd other wise there would be a 100% return rate did you try using the licence on the cd and downloading it from the website, if it doesnt work from there its gotta be your machine spec or otherwise your mahine is faulty.

 

Rubbish theres low return rates because shops refuse to take them back AND when you call theyre more likely to say go to our website and download the latest patch for it. It does not mean its his machines spec or his machine could be faulty there could be many issues involved there could even be a hardware and software combination that the manufacturer had not planned on or .net framework could be missing or any number of other things than just your machine could be faulty

 

We try to help each other out here rather than simply swear at each other

[seaweasel]

I returned a DSL router and USB adapter to PC World not long ago without any problems (Linksys told me they had Mac drivers for the adapter, they didn't). I think what other people have mentioned about them is true (I used to work there a long time ago), if you know what you're talking about then they're not too bad, in fact you can sometimes get a good deal (e.g. I got my current Mac from them cheap as it was a display machine). The danger is for people who need help in buying stuff, then they'll either get missold things, or fleeced, or both.

[stewy0_uk]

maybe a little late but here is my two penny's worth.

 

with reference to cooldrums he says..... There is no such thing as faulty software.

 

way back before I had a cd player on my puter I purchased a game form pc world that came on two 1.44mb disc's.... disc A and disc B..

 

the information on disc B was the same as disc A.

 

I returned the game to pc world the same day. After being accused of re-writing disc B. and being told I didn't know what I was doing/talking about, they refused a refund but did give me another copy of the game. Again the same fault (ffs)

I took it back (again) refused a refund (again) was given another copy which I refused to take until they checked the contents of boths disc's (not wanting to be accused of coping disc A to disc B again). OH surprise it was the same as the other two copies......I got a refund since that day I have never purchased ANY software from PC WORLD.

[woolfie]

Cooldrums you are wrong. We bought the expansion packs for The Sims for my daughter and when installed on the pc they wouldnt run. After much internet searching it turned out that this was due to a conflict with Nero 6 which has to be removed before the software will run. There is no mention of this in the instruction book.

 

While you are quite right saying that the software is tested it cannot ever be tested with every combination of software so there are often conflicts which can cause problems.

[yellowplum]

I have to say after reading this thread, I have to concur that PC WORLD, or really ANY part of DSG (Dixons Stores Group) are a COMPLETE PAIN in the proverbial when it comes to support and returns regardless of what the item is.

There is one problem with software; you do not have per se faulty software, just incompatible software. It does not matter how much testing you produce before the item is released to manufacturing there is bound to be someone out there in the world that cannot run the software for various reason. It may be hardware or software issue, regardless of this it is not humanly possible to test it.

Unlike manufacturing hardware/white goods which are easy to test, they either work or they don’t.

The reason Stores in general do not like taking back OPEN BOX software is because it has been used, cannot be resold, and more often than not cannot be returned to the manufacturer for credit as most will not accept returns. Hell we don’t!

I would suggest to anyone who purchases software to READ the EULA (End User License Agreement) as more often than not, you can obtain your money back from the manufacturer directly because the item is not working as it should.

It’s very difficult to prove that software does not function as it should.

Regarding DVD COPY tools, unless you live in a country (such as Canada) that allows CSS decryption technology to be sold with the DVD Copy Software than you will be unable to purchase software from a retailer that has the module inbuilt in the store. However, most reputable manufacturers will state this on the packaging.

[seylectric]

From the point of the consumer, it's very easy indeed to prove that software doesn't perform as it says on the tin. Just pop it back to PCW and ask them to try it in one of their machines!

 

They don't like refunding opened software for the simple reason that they believe you have probably copied it. Plenty do!

 

Personally I think you are better off downloading a trial version of any software you plan to buy first. Most stuff is available in trial versions online.

[blacksheep1979]

From the point of the consumer, it's very easy indeed to prove that software doesn't perform as it says on the tin. Just pop it back to PCW and ask them to try it in one of their machines!

 

 

 

And what happens when it works? Which it probably will do 90% of the time.

[yellowplum]

Exactly, being that the software doesn't work on your machine doesn't mean it wont work in a stores machine - therefore you have not proved the item is faulty.

 

Hence why stores do not take open box software as a return, and why you obtain your refund from the manufacturer directly. READ YOUR EULA!

[patdavies]

But your contract is with the retailer.

 

It's the same as when you have a piece of hardware that is faulty, there is a tendency to try to fob you off with "you need to send it back to the manufacturer"

[petrolhead]

that cracks me up. If you WERE of the mind to buy the software, copy it, then return it for a refund surely you would just download it off a P2P site and cut out the middleman. Most, not all but most PC world staff i`ve dealt with are fairly clueless apart from the basics, they just rely on BS and fake banter, some good deals on laptops sometimes though. The thing is if pc world had knowledgable staff who really knew PCs and IT inside and out the prices would go up as their wage bill would be horrendous. Most people who have the necesarry skills wouldn`t work for the wages pcworld pay just now, so they get the BS merchants or the part timers who are studying for the proper IT jobs, plenty of enthusiasm but not enough real-world experience yet.

If you want a laugh go to pc world with a wad of cash, tell them youll buy an expensive laptop there and then if the unistall for you that godawful norton antivirus/internet security trial crap they come preinstalled with. I had 4 of them scrathing their heads saying it cant be done.

[kennyc5150]

The issue seems to be that "the software" is faulty...if that were the case the software (being the only common feature if installed on various systems) would fail to run as expected.

If the software works on other pc's, you could therefore assume that the software itself is in fact fault free.

If it works on other systems but not on YOUR system, then logic would indicate that it may well be YOUR system, YOUR windows install or an incompatability with any of the other applications or drivers on YOUR system.

PS not sticking up for PCW, just using the most logical, fault finding i can.

as this is the route i went down MANY times.if it didnt work on other systems then offer the refund coz it aint worth the argument!

[StudentInDebt]

How does the Sale of Goods and Serivces Act cover sealed software? Does it make a special exemption to the "Must be fit for purpose and free of defects" rule?

 

Surely if the software doesn't work on your machine then you can get a refund regardless of the state of the packaging?

[blitz]

You should be able to compare the system requirments on the box, with the specification on your own computer. If it doesn't work then they are providing misleading information (it doesn't working on something that it should), and breaks the contract.

If it doesn't work on a system that isn't listed on the back then its your own fault, and won't be entitiled to a refund, as its your responsibility to check, and you in a sense, are given information about a 'defect' which exempts you from refund under the SOGA.

 

Though I assume if you want your money back, within a reasonable amount of time, its up to you to show that it doesn't work on the compatable system. (Full refund the burden is on you, repair/replacment within 6 months burden is on the retailer, after 6 months burden is back on you)