Ingeus

[trebormoinet]

2) Yes, a MAN should give some indication of how long an activity/appointment is expected to last. This should be covered by Chapter 3a of the provider's guidance.

 

 

The requirements to follow the mandate template to the letter only applies if you live in the contract package area 3, for all other areas there is no requirement to include start and end times for a mandatory appointment/ activity. in other areas apart from 3 the template is just for guidance.

[Skyro]

I'll try to answer your couple of questions (all three of them )

 

1) If you think an activity is inappropriate to your circumstances/needs, the first port of call is the adviser issuing the MAN. If that falls on deaf ears, you can ask (insist) that it is looked at by the manager. Final stage is to ask for a reconsideration by a DWP Decision Maker. However, the last option would take time, so the activity may already have taken place by the time a decision is passed down. The option to request a MR of a MAN is primarily in place for the benefit of ESA and lone parents/carers, but there is nothing that says a JSA claimant can not use the same process.

 

2) Yes, a MAN should give some indication of how long an activity/appointment is expected to last. This should be covered by Chapter 3a of the provider's guidance.

 

3) Attachment fees are no longer payable. From the inception of the Work Programme, these fees were scheduled to be phased out as outcome payments came on stream. I don't recall seeing any guidance being issued as to how attachment payments should be used.

 

Thanks for your quick replies...to all three!

 

So, on point 2, in the Annex of Chapter 3a of the Provider Guidance, example (JSA) MANs are given for both appointments and activities. Both these examples include a start and finish time. However, it appears that the guidance only lists them as examples and does not seem to mention that start and end date/times must be included, expect where an activity would run over more than one day, e.g., a training course or workshop.

 

Thoughts

Edited July 7, 2016 by Skyro
Added quote

[trebormoinet]

No they are not required to include an end time, it helps if they did, but some wont.

[Skyro]

The requirements to follow the mandate template to the letter only applies if you live in the contract package area 3, for all other areas there is no requirement to include start and end times for a mandatory appointment/ activity. in other areas apart from 3 the template is just for guidance.

 

Interesting, is this info documented somewhere? I'm guessing "contract package area 3" is a London area?

[trebormoinet]

While I am where here has been a seismic shift in the way Ingeus in my area are operating.

Since the voluntarily redundancies has significantly reduced the work force they have started whats called "Flexi Time" where instead of being called in weekly we can now choose monthly appointments that are not mandatory.

 

My first monthly appointment was to discuss the new arrangements which lasted 2 minuets and my next monthly appointment I decided to test how flexible they was and cancelled at the last minute, lo and behold no problem and received a new appointment in four weeks time, again not mandated.

 

Things might be looking up, while on the work program we do fortnightly drop and go signing and as far as they are concerned it is the work program who acts as the whipping boy and so are very hands off, they occasionally glance at my job search but I never get any grief off them like I did before the work program, so basically I am happy to stay on the work program at present.

[trebormoinet]

Interesting, is this info documented somewhere? I'm guessing "contract package area 3" is a London area?

 

My apologies the area where they must use the template is contract package 18 which is north east and humber run by G4s and maximus.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/505554/wp-provider-guidance-chapter-3a-cpa18.pdf

 

If you scroll down to the template letter it is highlighted in red that they must not deviate from the template, all other areas it is only guidance so they do not have to include an end time.

[Skyro]

My apologies the area where they must use the template is contract package 18 which is north east and humber run by G4s and maximus.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/505554/wp-provider-guidance-chapter-3a-cpa18.pdf

 

If you scroll down to the template letter it is highlighted in red that they must not deviate from the template, all other areas it is only guidance so they do not have to include an end time.

 

Thanks for that.

[Apple19]

Well I've officially been off there books for a few weeks now! Thank god no more letters or demands from them... it was honestly the most depressing time.

 

Yet low and behold I sent my 'removal of consent' letter on my last week of attendance with them. Not so much for removing consent as for them to take the hint to NEVER freaking contact me again. The office wasn't open, so the letter got sent back to the depot. Waited a week and sent re-delivery notice with Royal Mail and it go there singed for... curious they were supposed to be shutting up shop and moving to an inner city location... the amount of letters I got saying 'we need to talk with you about the move to blah blah'... proves it was just MORE LIES! If I was a violent person I'd be down there with a baseball bat ready to pan in the windows... these people are just the rats of our society.

 

If I had to do it all over again - the 2 years of hell - I'd be recording all meetings, keeping every scrap of evidence I had of their misconduct & reporting the two "advisors" who lied repeatedly to me. One of whom had the laughably inept thought of saying - 'Did you see that man coming in here! that man called me a liar! WHY would he do that?!'.... I stared them blankly in the face with a wry smile... thinking 'well sweetie, because you ARE a ****ing liar...'

 

I'm so sorry for anyone still in their clutches, it's so depressing & horrific to be held under these conditions. In short : Believe nothing they tell you, it's 99.9% made up ****e.

 

I was also reading the employee reviews for INGEUS on Glassdoor and oh boy there are some bad ones! My favourite one was titled : 'Yipppeee I've escaped, crack open the champers!' - That's just how I feel now too

[Mr.P]

Well I've officially been off there books for a few weeks now! Thank god no more letters or demands from them...

 

Did you have your exit review and receive a copy of the report ?

 

If not, make a formal request via your local JCP next time you go in. If Ingeus didn't do a review, that will be one more bad mark in their book.

[Apple19]

I've read it's someone who hasn't even met you while on the work Programme that does the exit report... I'm not bothered tbh.

 

They are out of my life & hopefully soon go bust. The Scottish firm I was with have a very shady reputation... they were trying to get people already in work to sign up with cash bonus of £100 - then use their employment details to gain a government payout...

 

I actually only started to research their shady activities after my last "advisor" let slip - 'I know no-one likes this company...'

 

Here's what I've found:

 

(I) They fiddle their books to make it look as if they are getting the required amount of people back into employment. Their true success rate is dismal...

 

(II) They have been investigated for fraud, Insulting the sick and disabled, lifting clients signatures from the sign-in book, claiming bogus outcome payments. Bogus sanctions raised. Also investigated for "parking" disabled & mentally challenged people as their deemed too difficult to place.

 

(III) Repeated cases involving clients rights to remove consent being denied/withheld with threatening remarks/letters about future benefit sanctions...

 

(IV) Many clients complaining of lies being told to them about new DWP "rules" - I've seen this in action! One guy made up new stuff every time I attended ie: JCP & DWP say Client MUST apply for a role that xxx pimpo have available. As you can imagine at first this caused havoc at group sessions with people signing up to any old tosh job they had going... then after a few weeks people just sat there quiet, saying nowt as this same "advisor" went through their "specially selected" roles.

Clients were asking at their local JCP offices about these changes and were obviously told the truth straight from the organ grinder... if in doubt ask the boss, not the whipping boy!

 

(V) Lying advisors, another one I've had the misfortune of having. Cases where phantom jobs appear, fake appointment letters being sent out, told to dumb down CVs & that giving them one is mandatory, told consent to share is mandatory, told that courses are mandatory, told all future appointments are mandatory, told you have to attend 3 times a week! - bloody big fat lie that one was.

The DNA Accessor, who you see at the beginning of your time with xxx pimpo - said to me: 'we'll get you in 3/4 times a week for help and support...' Erm ok but I have a faster PC at home, printer,scanner, email access etc? Can't I just do it there? They say no. WELL I printed off all my email contacts, job sites I was registered with, email partners & such. Took these along to my first meeting with JCP advisor week after induction WP meeting. Asked if it was mandatory to attend unto 4 times in a week. She was embarrassed and said yes sadly...

After showing my 2 page list of contacts/registered sites she quickly changes her tune, started to type furiously and puts a note on my file 'attendance once every two weeks!' - ha ha result! These are the tactics to watch out for early on with your xxx pimpo - they always test clients to see how much you'll kick up a fuss, especially this pimpo I was with!

 

That's the stuff I've ready/seen thus far. Honestly with the staff's attitude, barebones supplies and dingy office... not to mention redundancies gallore! they really do belong in the toilet bowel....

 

I'm gonna keep an eye on them as it's only so long before they get swallowed by a bigger fish...

[Skyro]

Interested in what peoples interpretation of this paragraph from Chapter 3a of the Work Programme Provider Guidance. Chapter 4 paragraph 101 :

 

‘.... must ensure that, as a minimum, participants have access to all ongoing mandatory requirements in a

single document

that is available to them at their request. This should include a clear explanation of what each activity is, when it occurs, when it must be completed by and what evidence is required to demonstrate completion of the activity.’

 

Also, mentioned in Chapter 3b– Action Planning :

 

'all ‘live’ mandatory requirements must be held in a

single document

.

This should include a clear explanation of what the activity is, when it

occurs, when it must be completed by, and what evidence is required to

demonstrate completion of the activity'

 

My question, is it right for us to expect a single document detailing all ongoing mandatory requirements, or do these paragraphs merely refer to how they should record details internally?

 

EDIT: ...kind of answered my own question on reading that first paragraph again, I guess it is the 'at their request' bit which is important. Not sure what others experiences have been, but I have never received a consolidated list of mandatory activities, just the individual MANs.

 

Cheers

Edited July 19, 2016 by Skyro
additional info

[Mr.P]

My question, is it right for us to expect a single document detailing all ongoing mandatory requirements, or do these paragraphs merely refer to how they should record details internally?

 

I think you will find that this refers to the activity mandated in the MAN that is issued to a participant. Ideally, each MAN should be for a single activity, and the victim^Wclaimant has the right to see a document detailing exactly what the activity involves. For example, you are mandated to attend a five day course on basic numeracy. You would be entitled to a detailed description of what the "course" covers and what mandatory requirements there are after the "course" finishes. It goes without saying, that once you have this document, you are in a position to challenge the suitability, especially if you already hold a recognised qualification in the subject (e.g. GCSE. O level, Ph.D...).

 

Yes, I got offered a four week "course" on basic English literacy. Nipped that one in the bud by pointing out that the adviser and some of his colleagues would benefit more from doing the course themselves.

[jasta11]

Yes, I got offered a four week "course" on basic English literacy. Nipped that one in the bud by pointing out that the adviser and some of his colleagues would benefit more from doing the course themselves.

 

Amen to that! I write the odd article for one of the international modelling mags (model planes not fashion models!) and I always keep a copy in my job folder. Anyone suggests I should go on a basic literacy course I show them a 3 page magazine article and say 'In what way can the course improve me then?'

 

Standing up for yourself is paramount, can't be stressed enough. Always remember that 99.9% of the time we''re smarter, more literate, more sensible and more decent than the WP bods.

 

My dad has a saying 'He/she couldn't get a job anywhere else, that's all they're fit for'.

[adambrown123]

Hello everyone, I have four questions which I’d like to get answers to. If anyone can help I would be really grateful.

1) Can you be sanctioned if you don’t come in for an appointment that was made on the phone, text, email or face to face?

2) Does anyone know what activates work programmes can mandate you to do? Been told I have to go in 3 times a week to do job search at their premises, do I have to go when I’ve already got a laptop and internet at home?

3) Also can they mandate me to show them evidence of my job searches?

4) Lastly does anyone have a template letter of me withdrawing my personal information (Telephone number and email address) from their systems?

[Apple19]

The DNA Accessor, who you see at the beginning of your time with xxx [edit]- said to me: 'we'll get you in 3/4 times a week for help and support...' Erm ok but I have a faster PC at home, printer,scanner, email access etc? Can't I just do it there? They say no. WELL I printed off all my email contacts, job sites I was registered with, email partners & such. Took these along to my first meeting with JCP advisor week after induction WP meeting. Asked if it was mandatory to attend unto 4 times in a week. She was embarrassed and said yes sadly...

After showing my 2 page list of contacts/registered sites she quickly changes her tune, started to type furiously and puts a note on my file 'attendance once every two weeks!' - ha ha result! These are the tactics to watch out for early on with your xxx [edit] - they always test clients to see how much you'll kick up a fuss, especially this [edit] I was with!

 

Please see the above for my tactic to avoid number 2. I wouldn't be surprised if they have "changed" the rules , might be worth reading through posts by Mr.P or antone as they always have great advice.

 

Good luck, thank god I've escaped now - I'd be suicidal if I still had to attend that hell-hole!

Edited July 30, 2016 by honeybee13
Pejorative remarks removed.

[Mr.P]

Seeing as my name was mentioned....

 

1) Can you be sanctioned if you don’t come in for an appointment that was made on the phone, text, email or face to face?

2) Does anyone know what activates work programmes can mandate you to do? Been told I have to go in 3 times a week to do job search at their premises, do I have to go when I’ve already got a laptop and internet at home?

3) Also can they mandate me to show them evidence of my job searches?

4) Lastly does anyone have a template letter of me withdrawing my personal information (Telephone number and email address) from their systems?

 

1) If a Mandatory Activity Notice was not handed to you or posted in good time, then you should avoid a sanction for Failing to Attend. However, some Work Programme providers consider all appointments to be mandatory and will raise a benefit doubt regardless of how the date & time of an appointment was notified.

 

2) You can be mandated to participate in any activity if they think it suitable to your needs and improves your chances of securing employment. If you consider the activity to be unsuitable, you can insist on a reconsideration.

 

3) Probably. However, if you have refused permission to store & process personal information, they would be on a sticky wicket with the Data Protection Act if they wanted copies.

 

4) Best to write your own. If you need help, post a draft here for review and comment.

 

Background info: I avoided being mandated to participate in any "activity". Perhaps it was because they thought I might be a disruptive influence, or that some of their own staff would benefit more from some of the "courses" on offer.

My job searches were always presented as (poorly) written logs, littered with abbreviations and terse, cryptic comments. Was never asked to produce further evidence such as emails or copies of applications.

[adambrown123]

Thanks for the advice Apple19 and Mr.P.

 

I haven't signed anything during my work programme even on induction. Can they still force you to do certain activities such as doing speculative calls and speculative letters, I don't wanna send my cv to random companies that don't have any vacancies.

 

Tell me ways I could annoy these people.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Mr.P
Edited derogatory term.

[Mr.P]

The danger of annoying these people is that it could make you a target for sanctions. So unless you have alternative means of supporting yourself, I would always advise treading carefully. I deliberately set out to push all the wrong buttons on my final visit to A4e. For my efforts, I got a hissy fit from the "adviser" and two benefit doubts raised. A nugatory exercise on her part as I had closed my claim for JSA an hour later.

 

In my opinion, speculative letters and telephone calls rarely succeed in securing employment and I have yet to see any research that proves it is worth the effort. Having been on the other end of the telephone fielding calls from the unemployed, all it does is waste time and annoys any prospective employer.

 

If you wish to challenge the activity of speculative calls & letters, ask for a statistical analysis demonstrating that it is an effective method. I doubt they would be able to provide any data on the subject.

[adambrown123]

If you play it within the rules they can't sanction you. I feel these work programme people try to annoy us by doing certain things and most people are scared to do anything incase they get sanctioned.

[trebormoinet]

Ingeus is broken, if you have shown no ability to find work they will leave you alone, they have no financial motivation to waste resources on commodities that will show no return.

 

Ask about monthly flexi appointments they are rolling out, they are non mandated and a quick phone call if you decide to not attend the next appointment will just result in another appointment being made for the following month.

 

I am on this new system and the appointment last not much longer than the time it takes to get my travel costs refunded.

 

Show them you have a chance of finding work......well......you will have value and that is like a red rag to a bull.

[tanner1975uk]

Hi all

 

I removed my consent back in February for which i have proof of receipt, since then they repeatedly text and phone (which i ignore) however now they seem to have discovered where i work and are sending emails to my manager and various other workers at my place of employment, would love to know how they even got hold of their email addresses..........

 

I have emailed the CEO (no response yet) was just wondering where i stand with this and what action i should be taking if any?

[Mr.P]

I removed my consent back in February for which i have proof of receipt, since then they repeatedly text and phone (which i ignore) however now they seem to have discovered where i work and are sending emails to my manager and various other workers at my place of employment, would love to know how they even got hold of their email addresses..........

 

Do you have samples of these emails ?

 

If you have refused/revoked permission to contact your employer, then this amounts to harassment. If it is causing distress, it becomes a criminal offence.

 

First stage is a complaint to their CEO (which you have done), then follow it up with an official complaint to the DWP via your MP. That should get a few wrists slapped. If you can evidence any distress caused, you could try contacting the police, although you might have to be forceful with them when the front desk staff dismiss it as a civil matter.

 

A complaint to the ICO might also be in order if you feel that Ingeus is processing your personal data above and beyond any reasonable need... As you are in employment, you have no obligation to maintain contact or be subject to the demands of Ingeus. On that basis, it sounds as if they may well be processing your data unfairly.

 

If you lose your job as a result of their harassment, you may even have grounds for legal redress.

[tanner1975uk]

Do you have samples of these emails ?

 

If you have refused/revoked permission to contact your employer, then this amounts to harassment. If it is causing distress, it becomes a criminal offence.

 

First stage is a complaint to their CEO (which you have done), then follow it up with an official complaint to the DWP via your MP. That should get a few wrists slapped. If you can evidence any distress caused, you could try contacting the police, although you might have to be forceful with them when the front desk staff dismiss it as a civil matter.

 

A complaint to the ICO might also be in order if you feel that Ingeus is processing your personal data above and beyond any reasonable need... As you are in employment, you have no obligation to maintain contact or be subject to the demands of Ingeus. On that basis, it sounds as if they may well be processing your data unfairly.

 

If you lose your job as a result of their harassment, you may even have grounds for legal redress.

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, i have recieved an email response today (not from CEO) stating that my records have been updated and no further contact will be made........i'm not holding my breath but we shall see.

[Finalemusic]

Hi! First time posting here so hopefully it all formats right and I'm not doing anything wrong

 

I've been with Ingeus a while and honestly it's getting me really down. Just patronising advisors and making me feel awful ('i can't believe you're not working yet' etc). I want to sign off from them as I really think I'd have a better chance like others here just applying at home with better internet etc and putting effort into serious applications rather than quick clicks for numbers. It's got to the point where I'm dreading going in. What happens if I lie and tell them I've got a job, even if it's just a seasonal Christmas temp thing to get them off my back? At this point I don't even mind if they stop the JSA, i just want out from them. They're so belittling and it's really knocking my confidence.

 

Thanks, sorry for being depressing

[Mr.P]

What happens if I lie and tell them I've got a job, even if it's just a seasonal Christmas temp thing to get them off my back? At this point I don't even mind if they stop the JSA, i just want out from them. They're so belittling and it's really knocking my confidence.

 

If you tell them you have a job, they will want employer name, address, and contact details so that they can claim their "off benefits" bonus payments from the DWP. If you actually have a job, even a short Christmas casual one, just close your claim at the Job Centre citing "personal reasons" and ignore any further contact by Ingeus.

 

How long have you been on the Work Programme ?