Ingeus

[LazyToucan]

Royal Mail delivered some 14 billion items in the 2014/15 year (1). In the same period, they received around 260,000 compensation claims and a further 230,000 complaints about lost mail. However, if one looks at the tabloids (the most recent one I can find is dated 2012), mail losses were running at around 0.07% (2). In other words, the likelihood of a letter failing to reach its destination is fairly low.

 

Asking Ingeus to provide proof of posting (i.e. Post Office receipt) should be enough to kill any claim that they sent the letter.

 

1) http://www.royalmailgroup.com/sites/default/files/annual%20complaints%20report%20for%202014%2015.pdf

2) http://www.standard.co.uk/news/fewer-letters-lost-more-parcels-pinched-6958454.html

 

Since my original post, something has come to light which I'll not mention in an open forum, but which leads me to strongly believe they never sent the appointment letter.I have written to them (DWP) to explain the situation and will be following up with Ingeus also.

 

Following on from the "Good Reason" letter I received regarding this non-appointment, I have now received a "We are reviewing your benefit claim" letter, which I believe from the wording and what they're asking for is from the compliance team, although it does not state that. Anyway, they want me to attend an appointment (at the JCP) for that one, along with bank statements, proof of ID etc.

 

I suspect these two things have both been triggered by Ingeus raising a doubt on my claim. Either way, it is a pain, and unnecessary stress!

[speedfreek]

Royal Mail delivered some 14 billion items in the 2014/15 year (1). In the same period, they received around 260,000 compensation claims and a further 230,000 complaints about lost mail. However, if one looks at the tabloids (the most recent one I can find is dated 2012), mail losses were running at around 0.07% (2). In other words, the likelihood of a letter failing to reach its destination is fairly low.

 

Asking Ingeus to provide proof of posting (i.e. Post Office receipt) should be enough to kill any claim that they sent the letter.

 

1) http://www.royalmailgroup.com/sites/default/files/annual%20complaints%20report%20for%202014%2015.pdf

2) http://www.standard.co.uk/news/fewer-letters-lost-more-parcels-pinched-6958454.html

 

Right reason but wrong thing to ask for.

 

Both the DWP and Ingeus have internal postal logs. iirc the dWPs also hold an actual copy of the letter sent whilst the Ingeus one doesn't. So asking for a proof of postage as above is pretty pointless.

 

The postal log is worth requesting via a SAR as it proves or disproves they sent something. But even if they did sent something the lack of what that was can be used to cast doubt.

 

The rub is; the process to obtain these will take over 30 days! You have less than that time to submit the mandatory reconsideration request. You should still request these now as they will come in handy if/when you take this to full appeal.

 

You not receiving a letter is a negative..... you can not prove a negative only cast doubt that it was sent or that it got lost on the way.

 

So the only 2 defences initially at the mandy stage are;

1, I have well documented issues with receiving post at this address

or

2, I didn't receive the letter for reasons unknown..... given the fact I've received and complied with all other letters it is out of character if I did receive this letter not to have complied with it.

[antone]

The "Good Reason" letter would have been triggered by the missed appointment. The Compliance letter was not - that isn't how it works.

[jason2723637]

i thought if a letter is posted under contract law it is as good as received? I doubt though this would work in regards to curtailing someone's benefit cause it got lost

[LazyToucan]

The "Good Reason" letter would have been triggered by the missed appointment. The Compliance letter was not - that isn't how it works.

Call me cynical! I've stopped believing in coincidences with these lot

[speedfreek]

i thought if a letter is posted under contract law it is as good as received? I doubt though this would work in regards to curtailing someone's benefit cause it got lost

 

A sanction can only be up held if it is considered 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

 

Both those arguments introduce a very reasonable doubt.

 

The DWP might no go for it when they do the mandy but the tribunal panel @ appeal stage will consider it and if you come across as believable give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

You want the postal logs and copy of the letter to prove both exist as if one or both don't exist or the postal log doesn't say what the letter sent is/was then you can use the not sent argument at appeal stage. As well as which of the 2 original arguments you used.

 

Edit:

The DWP have been handing out dodgy sanctions like confetti @ a wedding for a long time now. Plus the whole mandy system is designed to put you off appealing because of this. The majority of these sanctions would be over turned at appeal stage on the doubt and reasonableness grounds if people just stuck with it all the way.

[LazyToucan]

Thanks you for the replies so far guys.

 

The general feeling I get, is that a sanction is almost inevitably going to be the outcome, regardless of what I have written in response to their "Good Reason" letter? Would that be right/fair statement, or not?

[Mr.P]

A sanction may be imposed, in which case you should follow the appeal process. If you do have to go down that route, have a quick look at this thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?437927-Tribunal-for-a-JSA-sanction-for-not-receiving-a-MWA-letter

[antone]

Call me cynical! I've stopped believing in coincidences with these lot

 

The team that sends out Compliance letters doesn't talk to the people that make sanction decisions - they're two completely different functions. Heck, it was hard enough for us mere processors to get in touch with the Compliance and Fraud guys when we had a question for them.

 

I understand cynicism on this, I really do, but the processors and DMs don't get to decide which cases Compliance looks at.

[LemonNews]

Hi guys,

 

Just a quick question...does my Ingeus advisor have any rights to look at any form of my job search? as my job centre Advisor does all that every 2 weeks.

[sillygirl1]

Yes, they are there to help you find work. Stop trying to make things difficult for yourself by questioning every action they do.

 

The harder you make it for them the more likely they are to sanction you.

[trebormoinet]

Yes, they are there to help you find work.

That is debatable.

Stop trying to make things difficult for yourself by questioning every action they do.

How do you know this is not the first action he has questioned ?

The harder you make it for them the more likely they are to sanction you.

 

Ingeus do not sanction people that is the DWP, also they lose the chance of a pay day when people are sanctioned and have less resources to find work, so its not really in their interest to do so.

[LemonNews]

I haven't questioned them about, I just wondered about if it was all legit.

Good luck to all on Ingeus.

Cracking site with people helping each other.

[Mr.P]

The harder you make it for them the more likely they are to sanction you.

Ingeus do not sanction people that is the DWP, also they lose the chance of a pay day when people are sanctioned and have less resources to find work, so its not really in their interest to do so.

 

Whilst Ingeus and all other Work Programme providers can not impose sanctions directly, they can raise benefit doubts. These can be for the flimsiest of reasons which then cause considerable anxiety for the claimant.

 

In response to LemonNews' question: No, Ingeus do not have a lawful right to see your job search records. However, they could raise a benefit doubt on the catch-all excuse of "failing to participate". In addition, if they have mandated you to apply for a particular vacancy, you should be prepared to provide evidence if/when required.

 

You could do what I used to do with A4e (be warned, a high risk strategy) and provide badly hand written notes littered with abbreviations and cryptic notes.

[LemonNews]

Very good points trebormoinet and Mr p.

It's just one long hard slog with ingeus, I've had a raised doubt defeated before but it's not a pleasant experience being in limbo.

On a positive note, my local Centre has nearly halved in staff and I'm getting a new Advisor (old one let go I guess)...also in a workshop the guy running it was openly talking about applying for jobs and having 3 interviews already set up.

Beggar's belief sometimes.

[Apple19]

I have an issue with Ingeus, apparently all their client's are being transferred to another branch. They sent a letter saying I have a mandatory appointment to find out about these changes. I've not been in weeks, yet they have hounded me with app letters to find out about 'current circumstances'. WTH does it have to do with them? It's my personal/health information - why should I tolerate this fishing expedition?!

In any case they seem rather desperate to get me into the office when typing a letter with all the information that's required for me to know would do...

 

I know my rights and I think it maybe possibly a 'try on' as they have listed all the jobseekers stuff on the reverse of the letter & DWP sanctions etc... I'm not on JSA!!

 

Please can you advise the best course of action? any help at all would be appreciated - they have driven me nuts!

[whovian]

I am sick to the back teeth of Ingeus.

 

I did used to attend the appointments in my hometown for a little while. Not bad, twenty or so minute appointments with a pretty nice lady. Then I received a letter in February saying my hometowns Ingeus offices were closing and we were being transferred to other offices (over 5 and a half miles away)

 

My first appointment at the other offices seemed to go okay. I spoke with my new advisor and told her which day of the week was my signing on day (JSA) and that I do two full days of voluntary work each week (which I'm gaining the experience needed and also some recent references as I had none)

 

She told me she would want me to travel there twice a week and insisted I attend on my signing on day. Her exact words were, "We'll work around it" Fair enough.

 

When my second appointment arrived, I'd been up since the early hours of the morning with a vomiting child. (I am a single parent of two children)

 

I managed to get my other child to school and then called Ingeus and spoke with a lady on Reception. Informed her I could not attend and was told that was alright and the message would be passed on to my advisor.

 

The following week, after finishing my voluntary work for the day, I receive a text message saying my appointment was for the following morning (my advisor knew I was also working that day) it had gone 5pm by the time I got home and saw the message, so I called Ingeus and left a message saying I had only just got the message, couldn't attend because I had work. (I volunteer in a school as a teaching assistant and the class teacher specifically has my duties set out, I couldn't just call into school the next day and say I wouldn't be in that day. Above it being inconsiderate and rude, it's not good ethics when these are the people who will be giving me my references)

 

I receive a letter from Ingeus for my next appointment. I attend that appointment but was ten minutes late because the bus ran into trouble. My advisor was pretty awful to me.

She claimed I never called Ingeus when my child was sick and put me down as a 'Failed to Attend'

Then she berated me for not attending the following appointment (when I was in school working/volunteering) and said, "We don't work around you, you work around us"

 

She was very vocal about what little free time I had during the week to attend her 'job searching clubs' and used the term my "other commitments" aside from voluntary work - which I perceived as she meant my children by that.

 

She then got me to open my Universal Jobmatch history and said she didn't think I was applying for enough jobs. I've never had that issue raised before. I believe I apply for enough each week and JCP have never questioned it either. She also questioned the types of jobs I apply for.. Which I thought strange. I am qualified in Childcare but I do apply for other roles.. Retail, admin, waitressing.. I pretty much apply for all types if I believe I can do it.

 

I was then made to stay and jobsearch for over two hours.

Since that last appointment, I have not attended. Not because I didn't want to, but because I have had a very serious personal problem going on.

 

The father of my children took them as usual for a weekend, but refused to return them to me.

I spent the best part of two weeks liasing with the police, courts and social services to get my children returned. (They were taken 25 miles away from where my children and I live)

 

I received a text from Ingeus saying my appointment was set for the Monday at 10.30am - the same day as my signing on day and the time for that was 10.50am.

 

I physically couldn't be in two places at once, over 5 miles apart, so I called Ingeus and explained it was my signing on day and also gave them information on what was happening in my personal life, asked for some discretion regarding appointments with everything I was going through.

 

My JSA has been stopped. I had no payment almost two weeks ago now and I'm meant to be signing on on Monday morning.

Everything is a mess right now

 

The only good thing is that I have my children back now!

Edited June 4, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras.

[ripples]

There will be other people along whovian who are much knowledgeable than I am. First of all I just want to say sorry about your personal issues regarding custody. You have no obligation to show igneus your universal job match account and they have no right to demand to see it. You don't even have to allow your jobcentre adviser to view it. As long as you can prove you have looked for jobs that is all they can ask for. Have you appealed your sanction yet for failure to attend? I would consider making a complaint about ingeus and the way you are being dealt with by your advisor. I would actually dispute that they are not there to work around you. If they have your commitments on record and when you are signing on etc. I am glad I have never had to experience ingeus as I can be pretty vocal and I am sure I would get sent home for being obstructive.

Edited June 4, 2016 by ripples
Typo

[Mr.P]

I received a text from Ingeus saying my appointment was set for the Monday at 10.30am - the same day as my signing on day and the time for that was 10.50am.

 

Mandatory appointments must be made in writing and the letter either handed to you or posted to arrive in good time. Text messages, emails, and telephone calls are insufficient: This is from section 28 of the DWP guidance: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/505310/wp-pg-chapter-3a.pdf

 

Note: Your signing on appointment takes priority over any/all activities arranged by Ingeus regardless of what an "adviser" tells you. If they insist you attend one of their appointments that clash with your signing on time, attend the Job Centre as normal and show the appointment letter to a line manager. Get a note made on the JCP computer and make a formal complaint.

[Apple19]

I am sick to the back teeth of Ingeus.

 

I did used to attend the appointments in my hometown for a little while. Not bad, twenty or so minute appointments with a pretty nice lady. Then I received a letter in February saying my hometowns Ingeus offices were closing and we were being transferred to other offices (over 5 and a half miles away)

 

My first appointment at the other offices seemed to go okay. I spoke with my new advisor and told her which day of the week was my signing on day (JSA) and that I do two full days of voluntary work each week (which I'm gaining the experience needed and also some recent references as I had none)

 

She told me she would want me to travel there twice a week and insisted I attend on my signing on day. Her exact words were, "We'll work around it" Fair enough.

 

When my second appointment arrived, I'd been up since the early hours of the morning with a vomiting child. (I am a single parent of two children)

 

I managed to get my other child to school and then called Ingeus and spoke with a lady on Reception. Informed her I could not attend and was told that was alright and the message would be passed on to my advisor.

 

The following week, after finishing my voluntary work for the day, I receive a text message saying my appointment was for the following morning (my advisor knew I was also working that day) it had gone 5pm by the time I got home and saw the message, so I called Ingeus and left a message saying I had only just got the message, couldn't attend because I had work. (I volunteer in a school as a teaching assistant and the class teacher specifically has my duties set out, I couldn't just call into school the next day and say I wouldn't be in that day. Above it being inconsiderate and rude, it's not good ethics when these are the people who will be giving me my references)

 

I receive a letter from Ingeus for my next appointment. I attend that appointment but was ten minutes late because the bus ran into trouble. My advisor was pretty awful to me.

She claimed I never called Ingeus when my child was sick and put me down as a 'Failed to Attend'

Then she berated me for not attending the following appointment (when I was in school working/volunteering) and said, "We don't work around you, you work around us"

 

She was very vocal about what little free time I had during the week to attend her 'job searching clubs' and used the term my "other commitments" aside from voluntary work - which I perceived as she meant my children by that.

 

She then got me to open my Universal Jobmatch history and said she didn't think I was applying for enough jobs. I've never had that issue raised before. I believe I apply for enough each week and JCP have never questioned it either. She also questioned the types of jobs I apply for.. Which I thought strange. I am qualified in Childcare but I do apply for other roles.. Retail, admin, waitressing.. I pretty much apply for all types if I believe I can do it.

 

I was then made to stay and jobsearch for over two hours.

Since that last appointment, I have not attended. Not because I didn't want to, but because I have had a very serious personal problem going on.

 

The father of my children took them as usual for a weekend, but refused to return them to me.

I spent the best part of two weeks liasing with the police, courts and social services to get my children returned. (They were taken 25 miles away from where my children and I live)

 

I received a text from Ingeus saying my appointment was set for the Monday at 10.30am - the same day as my signing on day and the time for that was 10.50am.

 

I physically couldn't be in two places at once, over 5 miles apart, so I called Ingeus and explained it was my signing on day and also gave them information on what was happening in my personal life, asked for some discretion regarding appointments with everything I was going through.

 

My JSA has been stopped. I had no payment almost two weeks ago now and I'm meant to be signing on on Monday morning.

Everything is a mess right now

 

The only good thing is that I have my children back now!

 

I'd like to say I'm shocked but nothing they do would shock me, these people are just parasites leeching off already vulnerable members of society... it's disgusting!

 

Tell them you want all appointments & MAN's in writing, delivered in good time by post or handed over at meetings... if they want you to attend. No texts, emails or voicemails. If they start with those threats of sanctions, tell them you're perfectly inclined to ask for this and it's within the DWP guidelines.

 

Signed the consent to share form? Type up a letter saying you wish to remove consent. They'll say something about it being "mandatory"... ignore this and don't back down! Keep on insisting, if they start to become aggressive, which they well might I'd mention you are well within your rights to remove access to personal data sharing under the Data Protection act. All of which is true. You do NOT give them consent to share/pass on any of your personal information for their gain.

 

Personally I'd say above all else is to keep clam. With you sitting there engaging them, keeping your composure & staying within all the DWP rules to which they are bound... it will inevitably drive them to anger or threats/intimidation. I've seen this happen & honestly it's not pretty, but they always ended up looking like the crazy/unhinged person... the targets they have are unreal & many offices are now under closure.

 

Please don't let them get you down. It's hard I know. I hope thing work out ok for you Whovian, stay strong & come here for any further advice & support. The people here are fantastic!

[Mr.P]

Personally I'd say above all else is to keep clam. With you sitting there engaging them, keeping your composure & staying within all the DWP rules to which they are bound... it will inevitably drive them to anger or threats/intimidation. I've seen this happen & honestly it's not pretty, but they always ended up looking like the crazy/unhinged person...

 

If you are in the position to, I would recommend recording all conversations either openly or covertly. I used to record meetings with A4e (one dictaphone on the desk switched off, a second in my top pocket running). Proved useful when I was accused of verbally threatening and swearing at staff. Also got a hissy fit from a very unprofessional "adviser" on tape after spending some 90 minutes pushing all the wrong buttons

[Chester6]

Theyare meant to respect your work so that's something you can report them for

You could tell the person who sent you there but it's typical for the sanction centre to abandon you to these places

[LazyToucan]

On going through some documents obtained via a SAR, I find that Ingeus have sent out an abridged version of my CV or to be more precise, used it as the basis to create a badly put together cover letter in response to job opportunities.

 

I did sign the "How we use your information" document (the one which you sign to allow them to send your CV out) on being attached to Ingeus, however I had an additional clause added to it before I signed which said all positions to be discussed with me prior to my CV being sent out.

 

They have never discussed these positions with me.

 

What is the position regarding revoking consent on this? And also, is it worth kicking up a stink about it?

[Skyro]

Couple of questions regard Ingeus/work programme in general, if anyone can help.

 

1) If a mandatory activity has been scheduled, are there any means by which we can ask for it to be reconsidered, e.g.., if I don't think it is an appropriate activity in my circumstances. I'm really talking about anything which can be relied upon in the DWP provider guidance etc., not merely arguing the point with the "advisor". I seem to recall reading something about mandatory actives with regard to single parents on JSA, but not sure if the rest of us have any recourse in this situation?

 

2) Am I right in thinking that MAN letters should include a duration and not just a start time? None of my letters give any indication as to how long each appointment will last. Again, looking for something concrete really. written down in DWP or other guidance.

 

3) This one is a long shot,but, I remember reading somewhere some guidance on what the attachments fee earned by work programme providers should be used to cover, or what portions of it should be set aside to cover, e.g., interview clothes, training materials for the "customer"...my memory might be failing here, but I'm sure I remember reading something, somewhere!!

 

Thanks

Edited July 7, 2016 by Skyro

[Mr.P]

I'll try to answer your couple of questions (all three of them )

 

1) If you think an activity is inappropriate to your circumstances/needs, the first port of call is the adviser issuing the MAN. If that falls on deaf ears, you can ask (insist) that it is looked at by the manager. Final stage is to ask for a reconsideration by a DWP Decision Maker. However, the last option would take time, so the activity may already have taken place by the time a decision is passed down. The option to request a MR of a MAN is primarily in place for the benefit of ESA and lone parents/carers, but there is nothing that says a JSA claimant can not use the same process.

 

2) Yes, a MAN should give some indication of how long an activity/appointment is expected to last. This should be covered by Chapter 3a of the provider's guidance.

 

3) Attachment fees are no longer payable. From the inception of the Work Programme, these fees were scheduled to be phased out as outcome payments came on stream. I don't recall seeing any guidance being issued as to how attachment payments should be used.