Ingeus

[jasta11]

Hi,

Been referred to the dreaded ingeus scheme.

 

Has anyone used this template on / refuted.org.uk/2013/10/12/withhold/

 

It seems to address the main issues I have with these people but I fear getting a sanction if I kick up a fuss before I even begin, would it be easier just biting my tongue and keeping my head down ?

 

It really is important for you to start as you mean to go on and show Ingeus that you're clued up on ALL the current guidance and won't hesitate to complain if they fail to comply...and believe me, they'll fail to comply a lot Everything they do should be for your benefit, for which they're paid and quite rightly so, but they'll also try and do a lot of things which won't benefit you at all, such as trying to get you on courses you're already over-qualified for, just so they can claim a payment for 'helping' you. They're a business first and foremost and generating money is their main concern; helping clients comes a definite second.

 

Read up on the Work Provider Guidance - especially the chapter on mandatory appointments and smile nicely as you tell them 'You're not allowed to do that and I'll have to report you to the DWP monitors if you persist'. As I found myself, they'll definitely tread more carefully with you if you know the rules. Also, record ALL conversations with them; no need to tell them you're doing it either as it's your right under Section 36 of the DP Act.

 

I hope you get decent advisers - there are one or two but they're sadly outnumbered by the 'make money and reach targets at all costs' types. Good luck!

[trebormoinet]

I am going to explain that I have decided to become self employed by creating a new industry

 

"Work program competency and quality control officer"

 

I plan to monitor and report dubious, unlawful and incompetent practices within the work program regime .

 

I plan to operate covertly using the same methodology as a "secret shopper" would in the retail industry, acting out the roles of the myriad of personalities and problems they will encounter when dealing with clients.

 

If a provider fails to satisfy its requirements the DWP can recover past payments and impose sanctions on a sliding scale for periods between 4 weeks and 3 years for any future payments.

 

My income will be based on a percentage of the savings made by the DWP due to sanctions of work providers.

 

I will help ask ingeus for help in drawing up and securing a contract with the DWP for my business which they have vast experience preparing.

 

And my time spent with ingeus over the next 2 years would be an excellent opportunity to learn my craft and give me valuable experience to hone my skills I hope they will do everything they can to help me achieve my goal.

[essexmat]

I am going to explain that I have decided to become self employed by creating a new industry

 

"Work program competency and quality control officer"

 

I plan to monitor and report dubious, unlawful and incompetent practices within the work program regime .

 

I plan to operate covertly using the same methodology as a "secret shopper" would in the retail industry, acting out the roles of the myriad of personalities and problems they will encounter when dealing with clients.

 

If a provider fails to satisfy its requirements the DWP can recover past payments and impose sanctions on a sliding scale for periods between 4 weeks and 3 years for any future payments.

 

My income will be based on a percentage of the savings made by the DWP due to sanctions of work providers.

 

I will help ask ingeus for help in drawing up and securing a contract with the DWP for my business which they have vast experience preparing.

 

And my time spent with ingeus over the next 2 years would be an excellent opportunity to learn my craft and give me valuable experience to hone my skills I hope they will do everything they can to help me achieve my goal.

 

[Belfaster]

I am going to explain that I have decided to become self employed by creating a new industry

 

"Work program competency and quality control officer"

 

I plan to monitor and report dubious, unlawful and incompetent practices within the work program regime .

 

I plan to operate covertly using the same methodology as a "secret shopper" would in the retail industry, acting out the roles of the myriad of personalities and problems they will encounter when dealing with clients.

 

If a provider fails to satisfy its requirements the DWP can recover past payments and impose sanctions on a sliding scale for periods between 4 weeks and 3 years for any future payments.

 

My income will be based on a percentage of the savings made by the DWP due to sanctions of work providers.

 

I will help ask ingeus for help in drawing up and securing a contract with the DWP for my business which they have vast experience preparing.

 

And my time spent with ingeus over the next 2 years would be an excellent opportunity to learn my craft and give me valuable experience to hone my skills I hope they will do everything they can to help me achieve my goal.

 

Remember to claim travel expenses!

[trebormoinet]

Before I was sent to ingeus I had to sign on weekly and fill in a paper diary showing I had spent 35 hours job searching.

 

They always refused to accept my job search activity which I used to fill on the UJM,, the reason being it does not have a section to include number of hours.

 

Now I have to sign on fortnightly and fill in a diary where I have to show that I have applied for 10 actual vacancies a week.

 

So its not 35 hour job search any more......well confused !!!!!!

 

When they set out my job seekers agreement I always refused to have apply for X amount of jobs per week as a condition as I was not in control of the jobs market and there might not be X amount of vacancies.

 

Is this practice particular to my job centre or is this way of doing things country wide if so, I cannot find any mention of this applying for 10 jobs per week in any government info ?

[Tj rodgers]

Yes they do that at most jobcentres i was asked to apply for 14 a week

[essexmat]

I had many arguments with both JCP and INGEUS over job searches as they seemed to think that quantity was better than quality.

 

I am sure most of you have applied for jobs that you do actually want and if you have then like me you will understand that some applications can take 4-5 hours of work as you are reading the JD and PS, doing the application form, composing and proofing the covering letter, researching the organisation and so on. Realistically for a job you REALLY want you can do ONE application a day at best.

 

At one point INGEUS said I had not applied for enough jobs and when I argued that most I searched for were too far away as travel costs would be high, part time or not what I am skilled at I was told "apply anyway" so I turned up one week with a spreadsheet with 55 applications using the same CL and CV and they said "wow, well done" I said "I won't get any of them though as they were all identical applications so only these 3 were properly done"

 

It is a case of doing what they ask to avoid sanction and not doing what SHOULD be done so let them have their way as you won't get ANY help from them. God, when I first started at INGEUS they wanted to re-do my CV and dumb it down - they are clowns, end of

[essexmat]

May as well ask this as I am on line.

 

Started INGEUS Feb-14 - stayed until Aug-14 (6 months) Since Aug-14 been on ESA so 14 months since I started INGEUS have gone. Does that mean I only have 10 months left or does my sentence start with another 18 months if I go back to JSA?

[Tj rodgers]

No you have until feb 2016

[essexmat]

Good-o - so not much of that painful waste of time when back on JSA

[think about it]

I am sure most of you have applied for jobs that you do actually want and if you have then like me you will understand that some applications can take 4-5 hours of work as you are reading the JD and PS, doing the application form, composing and proofing the covering letter, researching the organisation and so on. Realistically for a job you REALLY want you can do ONE application a day at best.

 

At one point INGEUS said I had not applied for enough jobs and when I argued that most I searched for were too far away as travel costs would be high, part time or not what I am skilled at I was told "apply anyway" so I turned up one week with a spreadsheet with 55 applications using the same CL and CV and they said "wow, well done" I said "I won't get any of them though as they were all identical applications so only these 3 were properly done"

 

I'll pop my neck on the block here, it's no secret that I was an Adviser, many moons ago, with Ingeus.

 

I can't agree with Matt enough. There is NO point whatsoever in firing out 100 generic applications to jobs and hoping that one will 'hit'. By spending time on your application, making sure it addresses all of the requirements in the person spec and job description you VASTLY improve your chances of being selected.

 

Unfortunately, some of my former colleagues seem to think that the scatter gun approach is better. It's not.

 

As Matt says, do your 'click to apply' effort to get your numbers up to keep them off your back and put your real effort into those that you actually want.

 

I'm currently recruiting for a new member of staff and if I'm wholly honest, I've only shortlisted people that have put a bit of effort into their applications as it shows that they actually want the job. I don't want to see three lines on a PDF from www.indeed.com, I'd much sooner have a hand-written letter that at least demonstrates a bit of thought even if there's no CV with it.

 

I'm not going to be so naieve as to start giving tips and hints out on here, just do what Matt says above and you'll get far more responses from employers than you ever will by 'click to apply'.

 

Good luck.

 

TAI

[essexmat]

I'll pop my neck on the block here, it's no secret that I was an Adviser, many moons ago, with Ingeus.

 

I can't agree with Matt enough. There is NO point whatsoever in firing out 100 generic applications to jobs and hoping that one will 'hit'. By spending time on your application, making sure it addresses all of the requirements in the person spec and job description you VASTLY improve your chances of being selected.

 

Unfortunately, some of my former colleagues seem to think that the scatter gun approach is better. It's not.

 

As Matt says, do your 'click to apply' effort to get your numbers up to keep them off your back and put your real effort into those that you actually want.

 

I'm currently recruiting for a new member of staff and if I'm wholly honest, I've only shortlisted people that have put a bit of effort into their applications as it shows that they actually want the job. I don't want to see three lines on a PDF from www.indeed.com, I'd much sooner have a hand-written letter that at least demonstrates a bit of thought even if there's no CV with it.

 

I'm not going to be so naieve as to start giving tips and hints out on here, just do what Matt says above and you'll get far more responses from employers than you ever will by 'click to apply'.

 

Good luck.

 

TAI

 

Thank you for the reply - couldn't agree more, fire off your quotas on a one click application in a short period of time and spend 90% of your time on REAL JOBS that YOU want.

[trebormoinet]

Well had my first session today with ingeus.

 

I told them I do not want any support after my JSA has ended and any attempt to engage with me or my employer I would regard as harassment.

 

I refused to sign away my personal data, of course they tried every which way to get me to sign it and how important it was but when I asked it to be put in writing as a mandatory notifaction I sign this form, they looked towards the heavens, took a deep breath and threw the form into the drawer.

 

We moved on.

 

Same old story lets look at your CV and see if it can be improved, I explained that over the course of the last year I been on several courses that did just that, the most recent changes to my CV was 2 weeks ago when I spent 5 days on a CV improvement course.

 

They grunted a little and scanned my CV, after a while they drew a deep breath and said well to be honest there is nothing I would change on it.

 

They then asked if they could a keep a copy, OK by now they were aware I might not be such a soft touch I could have refused but I did not want to appear totally negative and if only I had a camera to capture the look of sheer victory and self satisfaction on their face when they put it in their folder was priceless.

 

I think I might have created a rod for my own back here though standing up for myself , they arranged another appointment for Monday which is a bit quick surely.

 

They printed off a letter with my appointment but it just said the date and start time, no end time, then the MAN info regarding failure to comply.

 

The activity I had to carry out in the letter was email them a copy of my cover letter.

 

When I asked for what reason did I have to attend Mondays session if I was only required to email the cover letter, they again took a deep breath and scribbled job search onto the letter.

 

I left it at that fearing if I mentioned there was no end time on my letter and why was there no European logo on the letter, (I read it somewhere they have to include this on all letters) they would blow a gasket.

[Mr.P]

I left it at that fearing if I mentioned there was no end time on my letter and why was there no European logo on the letter, (I read it somewhere they have to include this on all letters) they would blow a gasket.

 

You are correct. Their contract with the DWP require them to use both the JCP and ESF logos on all documents/letters in relation to any Work Programme provision. Save it for another day when you have the urge to poke a stick in the wasp-nest.

 

As for allowing them to retain a copy of your CV, by doing so, you have given them "implied consent" to store and process personal information. If you give them anything else, always add a note in a prominent position stating "not for redistribution" or something similar.

[kosebamse]

Got a MAN letter regarding appointment but the letter has arrived a few days after the appointment had been scheduled (perhaps Easter's got something to do with it). The Ingeus adviser thinks this is not true, since 'it could not have taken 10 days' for a 2nd class letter to arrive. Those are no signed for letters... how am I to prove that this is what actually happened - that is, I got it after the scheduled appointment?

[Mr.P]

When was the letter dated ?

What date is on the postmark (if it has a stamp) ?

When was the appointment ?

 

The DWP issued guidance is that letters should be posted "in good time". So if you can answer the questions above, we can give you an opinion and help draw up a defence if they try to impose a sanction.

 

It is also possible to determine when this letter was sent by reading the orange bar code on the front of the letter. This is applied by Royal Mail as it goes through its letter sorting machines, and can be used to settle any arguments as to when a letter was posted. unfortunately, one requires access to a specialist bar-code reader to do this.

[trebormoinet]

As for allowing them to retain a copy of your CV, by doing so, you have given them "implied consent" to store and process personal information. If you give them anything else, always add a note in a prominent position stating "not for redistribution" or something similar.

 

Thanks for the info..doh no wonder they looked pleased with themselves at the point, I guess I should send them a letter withdrawing "implied consent" or craftily replace my CV with "not for redistribution" version.

 

I can only assume they are neglecting to include the logo to avoid using the coloured ink as budgets are tight.

 

I have read that this year Ingeus will get no referral fee for clients, according to the paper I read the group I am in means they would get £250 each month I am working payable for a maximum of 13 weeks and £2500 if I have found sustainable long term employment.

 

So my overall value to the company is a potential £3250, nothing like the £15000 I have read according to some sources but still a tidy sum.

[trebormoinet]

The Ingeus adviser thinks this is not true, since 'it could not have taken 10 days' for a 2nd class letter to arrive. Those are no signed for letters... how am I to prove that this is what actually happened - that is, I got it after the scheduled appointment?

 

Yes I think the system is biased in that them posting the letter is proof enough to expect you received that letter unless you can show previous history where you have had problems with past post, maybe ask to the postmen to provide a signed statement as to when the letter was delivered, he might be sympathetic.

 

I have read that you can request them send all mail recorded post however in practice I can see them being reluctant due to the extra costs, I shall test this out on my next visit as my post is always delivered to the wrong address and I receive plenty of other peoples mail living in a flat complex I guess this is more common.

[Mr.P]

I have read that this year Ingeus will get no referral fee for clients.

 

Yup, from year 4 of the Work Programme, attachment fees drop to zero. It is supposed to give the providers more incentive to get the claimant in to sustained employment sooner. It is also worth pointing out that referrals have dropped from an average of 69,000 per month back in 2011 down to 29,000 per month last year (http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06340.pdf). Not only have they lost their attachment fees, there are fewer claimants to make a profit from.

 

I have read that you can request them send all mail recorded post however in practice I can see them being reluctant due to the extra costs, I shall test this out on my next visit as my post is always delivered to the wrong address and I receive plenty of other peoples mail living in a flat complex I guess this is more common.

 

If you have issues with your post, long a complaint with Royal Mail, and keep pestering them on the matter. Each delivery round has a "book of notes" recording problem addresses, so get yours included - When the time comes, you can ask for a copy of these notes and use it in support of a sanction appeal. Also insist that the provider uses a "signed for" service. The extra cost is not your problem (must admit, I'm not aware of any specific guidance on this).

[jasta11]

When I asked for what reason did I have to attend Mondays session if I was only required to email the cover letter, they again took a deep breath and scribbled job search onto the letter.

 

..which could also have been done from home, surprised you didn't point this out to them:) Under their contract they're required to 'engage with the participant'..and that covers a multitude of sins, one of which is dragging people into their offices for pointless appointments, just so that they can tell the DWP they've 'had you in' and what a great job they're doing.

 

I wouldn't stand for them scribbling things onto paper too - insist on a formal printed appointment at all times. I once reported my lazy adviser for hand-writing an appointment on the back of a compliments slip (after she'd tried to give me a verbal appointment, which I also reported her for).

 

Stick to your guns and don't let them get away with anything!

[trebormoinet]

..which could also have been done from home, surprised you didn't point this out to them:) Under their contract they're required to 'engage with the participant'..and that covers a multitude of sins, one of which is dragging people into their offices for pointless appointments, just so that they can tell the DWP they've 'had you in' and what a great job they're doing.

 

I wouldn't stand for them scribbling things onto paper too - insist on a formal printed appointment at all times. I once reported my lazy adviser for hand-writing an appointment on the back of a compliments slip (after she'd tried to give me a verbal appointment, which I also reported her for).

 

Stick to your guns and don't let them get away with anything!

 

I agree with everything you have said,

 

However,

 

I need to tread carefully, I have no legal training obviously there is some great info to found on-line but it all seems like guidance rather than definitive and to risk going without benefit fills me with dread.

 

I could have pointed out I have all the resources to job search at home and demand they provide me with the requisite letter mandating me to take part in this activity but I presumed grudgingly they would craft said letter and I would still have to attend.

 

And with the power they yield I am weary they could make life very awkward indeed and remain within the law as such if I annoy them too much.

 

So I will chip away slowly and surely but also nod and bow at times.

 

Having rights is one thing, exercising them in the real world is another matter indeed.

[trebormoinet]

Not only have they lost their attachment fees, there are fewer claimants to make a profit from.:violin

I guess as they have less cattle joining the herd extra pressure will be placed upon the dwindling few to achieve more.

[Mr.P]

And with the power they yield I am wary they could make life very awkward indeed and remain within the law as such if I annoy them too much.

 

So I will chip away slowly and surely but also nod and bow at times.

 

When A4e were operating in my area, they claimed to "treat you how we ourselves expect to be treated". The "advisers" were patronising, insulting, and at times, threatening. To which I responded in kind. If there was any dispute about what was said, I always had a recording of the meeting to refer to and use as evidence should the need ever arise. When addressed by first name, the response was always "That is Sir to you !" - You are the client, and they are there to serve you.

 

Conduct yourself in a business like manner, print out copies of the DWP guidance (on their printer), and refer to it when needed. Once the staff know you are clued up on how they should be operating, they should be a little more circumspect.

[jasta11]

I agree with everything you have said,

 

However,

 

I need to tread carefully, I have no legal training obviously there is some great info to found on-line but it all seems like guidance rather than definitive and to risk going without benefit fills me with dread.

 

I could have pointed out I have all the resources to job search at home and demand they provide me with the requisite letter mandating me to take part in this activity but I presumed grudgingly they would craft said letter and I would still have to attend.

 

And with the power they yield I am weary they could make life very awkward indeed and remain within the law as such if I annoy them too much.

 

So I will chip away slowly and surely but also nod and bow at times.

 

Having rights is one thing, exercising them in the real world is another matter indeed.

 

I quite agree. Take small victories and build on them. The WP do have a certain leeway and flexibility with clients to create 'personalised work programs' - every client is different but always bear in mind that everything they ask has to be 'reasonable in your circumstances' and this is where they fail miserably as it's obviously not reasonable to ask clients to come in to the centre and do jobsearch online when they could be doing this at home. That's the nature of the beast though, sadly - they're going to drag us in to do something, however pointless and unreasonable.

 

However, they must abide by the WP rules issued to them by the DWP, as it's part of their contract and failure to follow these rules can result in their losing the contract. A4e and others have had contracts revoked due to non-compliance, so these are rules that we can use against them..and many here have with great success.

 

Hope you're now recording everything too, never know when it will come in handy

[trebormoinet]

 

However, they must abide by the WP rules issued to them by the DWP, as it's part of their contract and failure to follow these rules can result in their losing the contract. A4e and others have had contracts revoked due to non-compliance, so these are rules that we can use against them..and many here have with great success.

 

Well I had my second appointment today and gave them the withdraw consent form found on refuted.org, I also pointed out that the last mandated appointment letter they gave me falls well short of current guidance as it only had a start time for the appointment, no end time was given and the activity I had to carry out was ambiguous to say the least

wp-provider-guidance-chapter-3a-cpa18-v2 updated 30/03/2015

 

“If you choose to mandate a participant to undertake activity, you must do so using the appropriate letter contained in the annexes of this guidance. You MUST NOT draft and/or issue any mandation letters you have devised yourself.”

 

The correct format of the letter should be for my claimant group is as follows:

 

Annex 1 – Appointment MAN (JSA ONLY)

[Please Note: the following template must be used and the structure must not be altered or

added to]

[Office Name]

[Contact Tel. No.]

[Office Address]

[Date issued]

[Participant Name]

[Participant Address]

Dear [Participant Name]

As part of your participation in the Work Programme, I am writing to inform you of an

appointment which you are mandated to attend. What you have to do is explained below:

Your appointment is (insert appointment name)

On: (date including day of the week)

At: (Start and Finish time)

Location:

(and can include 'see enclosed map')

Your contact at [insert name of appointment provider] is [insert contact name].

[if appropriate] To achieve your goal we expect you to have [insert evidence

needed for completion]

[if appropriate] At this appointment, the following support can be offered [insert detail].

Please inform us immediately if you need a registered child carer, an interpreter or any other

service in order to attend, this may be able to be arranged and your costs covered.

If you are unable to undertake this activity and wish to re-arrange for a future date, please

contact me immediately. My contact number is at the top of this letter.

 

 

The appropriate letter in no way reflected the letter I was issued with, I was sent to the office manager with regard to my complaint and he stated that in all the years he has done this job, they have never put a end time for appointments and anyway they have a compliance team ensuring they act accordingly so I must be wrong.

 

I have put my concerns in writing and awaiting the outcome.