PCN for parking in a loading bay Hounslow

[jaigee]

Hello,

 

I was captured on CCTV parked in a loading bay, with Loading Only written on the road, a white sign worded Goods Vehicles Loading Only with a blue square containing a white trolley.

 

My vehicle in a large 4x4 Toyota Hilux Surf taxed PLG and insured to carry goods for my business use(plumber). I was collecting goods from a builders merchants adjacent to the parking bay.

 

I appealed the PCN with evidence of collecting goods(a delivery note) and a copy of my insurance stating cover for business use, and my appeal has been rejected on the following grounds

 

' a goods vehicle is described in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, as a vehicle or trailer constructed or adapted for use for the carriage or haulage of goods or burden of any description.

Clearly your vehicle does not fall into this category but rather that of a 'passenger vehicle' which is defined as a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects.

While a 'passenger vehicle' may well be used for business purposes, this does not permit it to park in a 'goods vehicle only' bay or place. The eligibility for parking in such bays, stems from the 'purpose of construction' of the vehicle in the first instance. In this instance it is clear your vehicle is constructed as a passenger vehicle (its primary use) and although you may use it in conjuction with your business it is not a goods vehicle.

 

Now to me this is all very ambiguous, i can not find any reference in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 document that describes this classification of a goods vehicle. My vehicle may well be primarily designed for conveyance of passengers yet i had adapted it (by folding down the rear seats) to convey goods- on board that day was a 100 gallon water tank and various plumbing supplies.

 

As far as i knew, as my vehicle is taxed as PLG so i assumed i could park in a goods vehicle bay as i was conveying and collection goods for business use.

 

Now i don't want to pay the PCN if there are reasonable grounds to appeal their decision again, but the fine will go from £50 to £100 if i do (all hail Rip Off Britain!). Does anyone out there have any advice or suggestions on this matter????

 

thanks for your time

 

Jason

[sailor sam]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

I think you will find that a goods vehicle is usually considered to be a van or a vehicle specifically designed to carry goods. I would be reluctant to advise you to loose any discounted period by taking it to PATAS to be honest as i'm not sure that your vehicle does qualify to be a 'goods vehicle'. Others may have opinions on this as well.

[jaigee]

Ok well i have been trawling the web to find exact classifications of vehicles and came across this doc. The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986

in which it notes in the definitions section

dual-purpose vehicle a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either—

(i)is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or

(ii)satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely—

(a)the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;

 

(b)the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver's seat must—

(i)be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and

 

(ii)be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and

©the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.

 

goods vehicle

a motor vehicle or trailer constructed or adapted for use for the carriage or haulage of goods or burden of any description.

passenger vehicle

a vehicle constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects.

 

So from this document i gather my vehicle is a Dual Purpose vehicle as it meets all the criteria under that definition, and this is exactly why I bought the vehicle, to cart my family about AND to carry goods and provisions for my line of business. The defination of Passenger Vehcle in this doc. does not meet my vehicle parameters (i.e. it is not solely designed for carriage of passengers etc) and more importantly does not match the argument that Hounslow Parking Services threw back at me i.e. they state Passenger Vehicle being defined as a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects (omitting the solely)

 

So how does this look now for a further appeal? I would really appreciate ant comments especially from someone who's argued a similar case

 

Thanks again

[TheBogsDollocks]

I see no harm in arguing that you "adapted" your vehicle for the particular purpose of carrying goods and therefore you believe at the time the PCN was issued your vehicle satisfied the goods vehicle criteria.

 

You may also find the following appeal decision favourable http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/StatReg/case.aspx?caseref=2110087803

[hessey50]

i think the point is going to be that the bay is for goods vehicles not dual purpose vehicles but check the order is correct it may specify a weight which they may have not put on the signage or may not even be in an order loading bays are often just "created"

[green_and_mean]

What is the actual PCN for , not being a goods vehicle or for not loading in a loading bay?

[jaigee]

What is the actual PCN for , not being a goods vehicle or for not loading in a loading bay?

 

PCN issued for being incorrect type of vehicle for that loading bay.

[jaigee]

What is the actual PCN for , not being a goods vehicle or for not loading in a loading bay?

 

PCN issued for being incorrect type of vehicle for that loading bay.

Have requested a copy of their TMO.

[TheBogsDollocks]

In that case when you appeal make reference to the PATAS decision I linked to and send a copy with your appeal.

[jaigee]

thanks mr B, but i cant seen to open that case link, comes up with the PATAS website giving a message due to high demand server not available or similar, funnily enough i can open other cases on their site. will keep trying

[TheBogsDollocks]

thanks mr B, but i cant seen to open that case link, comes up with the PATAS website giving a message due to high demand server not available or similar, funnily enough i can open other cases on their site. will keep trying

 

In that case go to the seach option on their site and look up case 2110087803

[jaigee]

Hi, I managed to get a copy of that case, thank you.

On another level entirely, my PCN was issued for being parked in a parking place not designated for that class of vehicle. In actual fact I was sat in the car waiting whilst my colleague collected goods from the Builders merchant adjacent. i was probably there for 2-3 minutes only. Does this constitue being parked or waiting? Would this have any bearing on the case? You could probably see me sat in the vehicle from the CCTV images taken i dont you can make out if the engine was running or not tho LOL

 

thanks everyone for your help and advice

[sailor sam]

I've just read that case and i'm not sure how it is relevant to this TBD. The appeal seems to have been allowed because the LA failed to include their reasons behind the 'offence' on the PCN and that the photo evidence didn't show the signage. Dosn't mention the description or class of vehicle involved.

[TheBogsDollocks]

I've just read that case and i'm not sure how it is relevant to this TBD. The appeal seems to have been allowed because the LA failed to include their reasons behind the 'offence' on the PCN and that the photo evidence didn't show the signage. Dosn't mention the description or class of vehicle involved.

 

 

The appeal was allowed because in the adjudicators view the PCN ought to have made reference to the class of vehicle (i.e. goods vehicles) when stating the grounds for the service of the PCN. Unless a person is told what type or types of vehicle are permitted then a person will not know if the alleged contravention is correct. The person who received the postal PCN may not have been the driver so will not necssarily know what the restriction was. The adjudicator explains;

 

In this case the grounds were that the Appellant's vehicle was not a goods vehicle, not being the class or type of vehicle that could park in this parking space that was a loading bay. However, the description used did not mention the class or type i.e. goods vehicle and the still photographs in the Notice did not show the sign relating to goods vehicle (diagram 660.4).

 

Thus, on receiving that Penalty Charge Notice through the post after the event, the owner would not know whether the vehicle was in fact the permitted type or class as it is not described. The owner would not have the essential facts so that they would know what case needed to be answered; it should be noted that the owner might well not have been the driver. In my judgment it should refer to the Goods vehicle restriction.

 

I've not seen the postal PCNbut if it does not clearly show the sign or make reference to "goods vehicles" then in any further appeal I would argue that the PCN does not correctly state the grounds for the PCN and submit a copy of the adjudication decision with the appeal.

[jaigee]

Well my actual PCN does not make any reference to Goods Vehicle, nor does it show any picture of a sign. It says the alleged parking contravention to be (23) Parked in a parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle.

There was a sign there saying Goods Vehicles Loading Only, which i did not notice at the time. However there is photographic evidence of the sign available online, which the PCN indicates is available to view.

 

Hounslow Parking Services only mention the Goods Vehicle ruling in their rejection of representation letter (see initial post).

This photographic evidence shows i was stationary for just over 2 minutes and my brake lights constantly on during that time, and that only my passenger left the vehicle to collect goods. Not sure that would mean anything but its worth noting. I have requested a copy of the CCTV footage, and the TMO. If the TMO does not state that dual purpose vehicles are exempt from this parking restriction then i think i may have good cause to appeal again.

 

And the wicked irony is that i was subcontracting for Hounslow Homes at the time Doh!

[TheBogsDollocks]

If the PCN makes no reference or provides pictures of the goods vehicle restriction then you can go ahead and include this point in your appeal as the law requires the PCN to convey the grounds for the PCN. Just make sure you submit your appeal with a copy of the adjudication decision. I also suggest stating that the council has provided no evidence that the restriction is signed in accodance with the TSRGD 2002. This will then put the onus on the council having to prove that it does. Often they are too lazy to do so or to do so satisfactorily. For an example of this type in case 2110097261

 

http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/StatReg/StatRegAdvanced.aspx

[Guest dhalix]

Hello people, just joined to get some advice on a problem that I have but firstly in this case, may I add that you are allowed to park for the purpose of delivering or collecting goods, and this is not just applicable to commercial vehicles. However, this reason would not stand up if you were delivering a hand packet, or buying fish and chips, but a larger parcel from your boot, too heavy to carry from a distant parking area, would be a good reason. So if you have proof of the size and weight of the item(s) then that would be your ideal argument.

[sailor sam]

Hello people, just joined to get some advice on a problem that I have but firstly in this case, may I add that you are allowed to park for the purpose of delivering or collecting goods, and this is not just applicable to commercial vehicles. However, this reason would not stand up if you were delivering a hand packet, or buying fish and chips, but a larger parcel from your boot, too heavy to carry from a distant parking area, would be a good reason. So if you have proof of the size and weight of the item(s) then that would be your ideal argument.

 

Not if the loading bay has 'goods vehicle' on the sign as is the case here.

[Guest dhalix]

Not if the loading bay has 'goods vehicle' on the sign as is the case here.

 

I do apologise...my bad

[mjk0210]

Hi there,

 

I recently got a PCN for parking in a loading bay after 9pm at night on Chiswick High road. I thought that the restrictions only applied during business hours and seems rather unfair. This just stinks like a complete money making racket to me. The council must be £1000 of pounds per month with this practice. Does anyone know if I have grounds to appeal because I was parked there after normal business hours? (I was half on a single yellow line and half on the parking bay.) The sign on the loading bay read "Loading only 20 mins, no return within 1 hour" but made no indication of time restrictions.

 

Thanks for your help.

[green_and_mean]

Hi there,

 

I recently got a PCN for parking in a loading bay after 9pm at night on Chiswick High road. I thought that the restrictions only applied during business hours and seems rather unfair. This just stinks like a complete money making racket to me. The council must be £1000 of pounds per month with this practice. Does anyone know if I have grounds to appeal because I was parked there after normal business hours? (I was half on a single yellow line and half on the parking bay.) The sign on the loading bay read "Loading only 20 mins, no return within 1 hour" but made no indication of time restrictions.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

If a sign has no time on it, it means its 24/7.

[Jamberson]

I don't see any grounds of appeal. As a driver, you are expected to know how the restrictions work (although in the real world you may not) and if you fall foul of them, they will simply say you've been done fair and square. As G&M says, if it says loading only, then that's what it is - 24/7, no exceptions.

[sailor sam]

Hi there,

 

I recently got a PCN for parking in a loading bay after 9pm at night on Chiswick High road. I thought that the restrictions only applied during business hours and seems rather unfair. This just stinks like a complete money making racket to me. The council must be £1000 of pounds per month with this practice. Does anyone know if I have grounds to appeal because I was parked there after normal business hours? (I was half on a single yellow line and half on the parking bay.) The sign on the loading bay read "Loading only 20 mins, no return within 1 hour" but made no indication of time restrictions.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

You need to start your won thread where you can post images of the signage up ect.

[Nic B-C]

Its a strange charge to have rather than not using bay as designated I can see it applying to a doctor or disabled badge but goods vehicle not having a good designation seems vague in the markings section it says about these white lines do kerbs supercede this as boundaries or are they still needed