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Well I've just sent of my data request for three different accounts (two current, one credit card) I have with Lloyds TSB.

 

I checked online statements but they only go back so far... About £1,000 of charges that I could see on there so I dread to think what the total will be!

 

I have about £10,000 worth of overdraft / credit limit (from starting my own business) across the accounts but luckily I'm in the position where if they decide to pull that away from me I can borrow the funds to clear it from family.

 

Just wanted to say that I think the advice here is great, I used your template data request form and I will be using both the first and second letter forms as well once I've managed to work out the figures (using, you guessed it, the spreadsheet from here!).

 

I have just applied online for a new account with Co-op bank to act as a backup if it gets nasty, and since I do have a pretty good salary I decided to see what rate I could get from them for a loan to consolidate the overdrafts and credit card I have with Lloyds TSB.

 

Thanks all for your input, I've been reading for a few days now. I'm sure when the next stage comes I'll be back to ask questions!

 

Just two things:

 

a) The 8% interest charge, I believe this can only be applied if it goes to small claims - is this correct? If that is the case I presume it should not be included in the initial request for refund to the bank?

 

b) For those who have dealt with LloydsTSB I wonder what your experiences have been like with the various offices (I heard people talking about Birmingham especially)? Does it make any difference where I send my correspondance? Where and to whom would people reccomend I send my first and second letters to (based on their experiences)?

 

Best wishes,

 

whiskers.

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Hi whiskers,

 

No you don't add the 8% interest until you file your claim at court, so leave it out of your prelim and LBA. And the address you shoud send your prelim and LBA to is:

 

Customer Service Recovery Centre

125 Colmore Road

Birmingham

B3 3SF

 

That address is where your prelim letter would be forwarded to if you were to send it to a branch etc.

 

Good luck. Lucid :)

Mindzai & Lucid vs Lloyds TSB

*Won unconditionally with contractual interest (29.85% compounded)

Lucid's Account - £749.62 * Joint Account - £2019.64 * Mindzai's Account - £595.65

*All settled in full - 6/2/07

*Hearings - 7/2/07

*Prelims sent - 9/8/06

_______

GOT A COURT DATE? A guide to the later stages

 

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Having read the thread about contractual interest I think I'm going to head down that route. I'm in no particular rush, and I don't desperately need the money - I just want to stick it to Lloyds TSB as much as possible.

 

It's possible that adding the extra interest will take the claim total over £5000. I'm aware that just because a claim is under £5000 doesn't mean that it will definitely be processed by small claims but I suspect it helps keep it under the radar. That in mind I was wondering whether it would make sense to actually make three claims (one for each account) instead of blending them all into one? I realise this will incur greater court costs but it seems like the safest option.

 

Another small thing I was wondering, when calculating the amount of your claim obviously the actual charges are easy. But how are people dealing with the interest applied by the bank to the charge? It seems impossible to determine how long the "effect" of a given charge is on the account considering all the other incomings and outgoings. I am considering ignoring this aspect of the claim entirely unless someone can tell me what the calculations used are (I am a software guy so I could write something for people to use for this if someone can clue me up).

 

With respect to contractual interest, I believe banks apply compound interest daily (to overdrafts, credit card balances, etc.). With that in mind I intend to also apply compound interest of the same level as they to each element of my claim from the date of the charge to the date of settlement. This, from what I've read, is a completely separate issue to the charges themselves. It is, in fact, an equivalent interest rate on the banks unlawful borrowing of my money to that which they would apply to your unauthorised borrowing of their money. Is this correct?

 

Getting quite excited about sending off my first letters - looking forward to a bit of a battle! I've spent the last few days reading other peoples advice and experiences, collected a lot of information together to help me prepare.

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With respect to your question about separating your claim into its 3 parts, it might help to have quick look at

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/30378-one-claim-time.html.

It clarrified it for me.

Best wishes,

Cat

29 March 2006 Data Protection Act Request sent for ac 1 (then she got a bit distracted but got another charge so...)

27 May Prelim letter sent for ac 1

27 May Data Protection Act Request sent for ac 2 & 3

21 June Prelim Letter sent for 2 & 3

14 July LBA sent with schedule for ac 1 & 2 & 3

7 August MCO filed – defence expected 10 September

11 September defence filed - signed Sean Copping

12 September AQ form received

18th September AQ sent back to Lambeth Court and copy sent to solicitors both recorded delivery

13th Feb 2007 Court Date Set

15th Feb Reclaimed Money is in my bank Account

 

Cat's opinions are those of a nurse and most definitely, definitely not those of an accountant or solicitor, although she was always quite good at sums and elocution.

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With respect to your question about separating your claim into its 3 parts, it might help to have quick look at

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/30378-one-claim-time.html.

It clarrified it for me.

Best wishes,

Cat

 

Thanks Cat,

 

Not sure that entirely cleared it up for me though ;) I would have thought as it applies to three separate accounts that it would be pretty normal to separate the claims (considering each of the accounts will have different conditions and interest rates etc).

 

I guess I'll see what the total comes to and then decide what to do! Looks like it doesn't make a big difference either way.

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The three accounts I have are all current accounts - one of them had previously been a joint account. It didn't even ocur to me that there were different terms and conditions. Every time I turn a corner, I learn something new. Here's hoping that my general attitude of trying to keep it simple combined with my hope that I have followed the instructions on here will get me to the end successsfully.

Bye for now,

Cat

29 March 2006 Data Protection Act Request sent for ac 1 (then she got a bit distracted but got another charge so...)

27 May Prelim letter sent for ac 1

27 May Data Protection Act Request sent for ac 2 & 3

21 June Prelim Letter sent for 2 & 3

14 July LBA sent with schedule for ac 1 & 2 & 3

7 August MCO filed – defence expected 10 September

11 September defence filed - signed Sean Copping

12 September AQ form received

18th September AQ sent back to Lambeth Court and copy sent to solicitors both recorded delivery

13th Feb 2007 Court Date Set

15th Feb Reclaimed Money is in my bank Account

 

Cat's opinions are those of a nurse and most definitely, definitely not those of an accountant or solicitor, although she was always quite good at sums and elocution.

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The three accounts I have are all current accounts - one of them had previously been a joint account. It didn't even ocur to me that there were different terms and conditions. Every time I turn a corner, I learn something new. Here's hoping that my general attitude of trying to keep it simple combined with my hope that I have followed the instructions on here will get me to the end successsfully.

Bye for now,

Cat

 

I'm sure it will! :)

 

I suspect my two current accounts are identical (though the list of charges will of course be different for each). It's the credit card that will be somewhat different.

 

Like I said, I'll wait and see what the data request comes back with and then decide!

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Hi whiskers,

 

But how are people dealing with the interest applied by the bank to the charge? It seems impossible to determine how long the "effect" of a given charge is on the account considering all the other incomings and outgoings.

You can use the advanced spreadhseet from Interest Calculation Spreadsheets. This version allows you to calculate a rough estimation of overdraft interest you are entitled to claim back.

 

Although a lot of advice given is to lump all of your accounts into one claim I don't personally see any problem with seperating them - especially if you are wanting to charge compound interest which can increase your amount by a lot. We currently have three seperate claims all running at the same time - each of our sole accounts and our joint account. Obviously it's a slightly different situation to yours in that you have two sole accounts and a credit card - but you'll definitely be ok to seperate your credit card. If your sole accounts have different interest rates and you are definitely claiming contractual interest then I would say seperate them for sure. I'd imagine it could get complicated with total amounts you are claiming if you left them together (especially when filling out the N1 form). :o

 

[Compound interest], from what I've read, is a completely separate issue to the charges themselves. It is, in fact, an equivalent interest rate on the banks unlawful borrowing of my money to that which they would apply to your unauthorised borrowing of their money. Is this correct?

Yes you can attempt to charge compound interest at their unauthorised borrowing rate - or you could claim it at the authorised borrowing rate if you'd prefer. But in my opinion the argument is strongest when you refer to the bank's unauthorised borrowing of your money, and so charge them their own unauthorised borrowing rate.

Mindzai & Lucid vs Lloyds TSB

*Won unconditionally with contractual interest (29.85% compounded)

Lucid's Account - £749.62 * Joint Account - £2019.64 * Mindzai's Account - £595.65

*All settled in full - 6/2/07

*Hearings - 7/2/07

*Prelims sent - 9/8/06

_______

GOT A COURT DATE? A guide to the later stages

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Hi whiskers,

 

 

You can use the advanced spreadhseet from Interest Calculation Spreadsheets. This version allows you to calculate a rough estimation of overdraft interest you are entitled to claim back.

 

Excellent, I may use this - if it turns out to be not a lot I might just pass this aspect of the claim by (as it sounds like it would be the hardest to quantify and explain if it came to that).

 

Although a lot of advice given is to lump all of your accounts into one claim I don't personally see any problem with seperating them - especially if you are wanting to charge compound interest which can increase your amount by a lot. We currently have three seperate claims all running at the same time - each of our sole accounts and our joint account. Obviously it's a slightly different situation to yours in that you have two sole accounts and a credit card - but you'll definitely be ok to seperate your credit card. If your sole accounts have different interest rates and you are definitely claiming contractual interest then I would say seperate them for sure. I'd imagine it could get complicated with total amounts you are claiming if you left them together (especially when filling out the N1 form). :o

 

It looks like making a claim with the contractual interest on it is a little too much for the online claim form mentioned by a lot of other people. Sounds like you guys went for the traditional paper form approach? How are your claims going? Perhaps you wouldn't mind helping me out when I come to actually filling in the forms (that's at least a month away yet though!).

 

Yes you can attempt to charge compound interest at their unauthorised borrowing rate - or you could claim it at the authorised borrowing rate if you'd prefer. But in my opinion the argument is strongest when you refer to the bank's unauthorised borrowing of your money, and so charge them their own unauthorised borrowing rate.

 

I agree entirely, I think you should aim for the equivalent charge - seems more justifiable than picking other values to claim for. At least you have something concrete to point at and say "well that's why I did it".

 

I'll check out the calculator and see how that works out. I'd imagine you'd need your entire statement history to calculate that, rather than just the charges though because it will depends on the current balance of your account at the time and the speed at which deposits were made after a charge was applied.

 

Cheers Lucid!

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Hi whiskers,

 

Yes the moneyclaim form can't handle a claim for anything other than statutory interest so you would definitely have to go down the N1 route. We actually didn't find a lot of information on filling out the N1 and so we were a bit unsure with the details of a couple of sections. I'm pretty certain we filled it in correctly but we will soon find out - we haven't heard otherwise yet and SC&M acknowledged our claims on 13th September so hopefully we would find out soon if there's a problem. But we will be happy to help out if you want.

 

Just keep in mind that if you are wanting to calculate contractual interest then the forum's spreadhseets don't do this at the moment - they calculate simple interest. It has been suggested that you can claim contractual interest by calaulating simple interest (and so could change the interest rate in the forum's spreadhseets to the higher rate), but in my opinion this isn't true contractual interest as the method of calculation the banks would use is compounding. If you used simple interest you would be underestimating your claim - which I don't think would be a problem for the banks but you might have a problem with it. ;)

 

I'll check out the calculator and see how that works out. I'd imagine you'd need your entire statement history to calculate that, rather than just the charges though because it will depends on the current balance of your account at the time and the speed at which deposits were made after a charge was applied.

The way the forum's spreadsheets estimate the overdraft interest is by you putting in each interest charge that has ocurred and your account balance after the interest was taken. It refers to charges that have ocurred and calculates your refund based on that. It is an estimation but we think that our results are reasonable, and as Vampiress says, if the banks don't agree with the amount you have come up with then they can provide a more accurate amount. ;)

 

Good luck with your claim and remember to be prepared for whatever Lloyds throw at you - they will try their best to put you off. If you want to see some examples of their bully tactics then check out the link in my signature to our thread - we've kept it up to date with all letters received from them and letters we've sent back.

 

Good luck. Lucid :)

Mindzai & Lucid vs Lloyds TSB

*Won unconditionally with contractual interest (29.85% compounded)

Lucid's Account - £749.62 * Joint Account - £2019.64 * Mindzai's Account - £595.65

*All settled in full - 6/2/07

*Hearings - 7/2/07

*Prelims sent - 9/8/06

_______

GOT A COURT DATE? A guide to the later stages

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Hi whiskers

 

Yes the moneyclaim form can't handle a claim for anything other than statutory interest so you would definitely have to go down the N1 route. We actually didn't find a lot of information on filling out the N1 and so we were a bit unsure with the details of a couple of sections. I'm pretty certain we filled it in correctly but we will soon find out - we haven't heard otherwise yet and SC&M acknowledged our claims on 13th September so hopefully we would find out soon if there's a problem. But we will be happy to help out if you want.

 

Cheers! I'll know how much guidance I might need when I actually see the form ;) I might pop in and pick up three tomorrow just so I can prepare while the rest is going on.

 

Just keep in mind that if you are wanting to calculate contractual interest then the forum's spreadhseets don't do this at the moment - they calculate simple interest. It has been suggested that you can claim contractual interest by calaulating simple interest (and so could change the interest rate in the forum's spreadhseets to the higher rate), but in my opinion this isn't true contractual interest as the method of calculation the banks would use is compounding. If you used simple interest you would be underestimating your claim - which I don't think would be a problem for the banks but you might have a problem with it. ;)

 

I most certainly do! I set up a small spreadsheet to calculate compound interest, it certainly makes the numbers more interesting (especially for those charges 2 or more years old)!

 

The way the forum's spreadsheets estimate the overdraft interest is by you putting in each interest charge that has ocurred and your account balance after the interest was taken. It refers to charges that have ocurred and calculates your refund based on that. It is an estimation but we think that our results are reasonable, and as Vampiress says, if the banks don't agree with the amount you have come up with then they can provide a more accurate amount. ;)

 

The only down side being I'd need more detail about my account than I currently have, I could request full statements I guess - but i've been employed continuously for the past 10 years so the amount of time a charge is on the account (and not cleared by wages or a transfer of some kind) won't be very long at all. I suppose I could work on a basic approximation of something like their authorised rate for 2 weeks on each charge. But then that might just be a little bit pie in the sky for not a lot of extra wedge, if you know what I mean!

 

Good luck with your claim and remember to be prepared for whatever Lloyds throw at you - they will try their best to put you off. If you want to see some examples of their bully tactics then check out the link in my signature to our thread - we've kept it up to date with all letters received from them and letters we've sent back.

 

Good luck. Lucid :)

 

I'll read through your entire experience.

 

I was thinking as this claim is a little bit more complicated than some (and includes that hot topic of contractual interest) that I would document the whole process (to the point of scanning in any letters and publishing them). It might give new people a bit more confidence in the idea.

 

Does anyone know if there is anything to stop me scanning and publishing a copy of the letters they send to me?

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Whiskers,

 

You can get a PDF version of the N1 Claim Form - you can't save a version other than the blank copy but you can type onto it and print.

Mindzai & Lucid vs Lloyds TSB

*Won unconditionally with contractual interest (29.85% compounded)

Lucid's Account - £749.62 * Joint Account - £2019.64 * Mindzai's Account - £595.65

*All settled in full - 6/2/07

*Hearings - 7/2/07

*Prelims sent - 9/8/06

_______

GOT A COURT DATE? A guide to the later stages

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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  • 2 weeks later...

*growl*

 

Still not heard anything from Lloyds with respect to my S.A.R.

 

It was posted on the 13th of September, is there anyone at Lloyds I can contact by e-mail to ask whether they have it? (It wasn't sent special/recorded delivery just standard first class mail).

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Not sure about an E-mail addy, have you tried the contacts thread at the top of the forum?

 

Heres my DPA reminder and non-compliance LBA letters which you can use if you like; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/25932-garyh-hsbc-data-protection.html#post229640

Please remember to DONATE! Help CAG keep up the fight!

 

 

Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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Hi whiskers,

 

You could try the contact details for the Compliance Dept. found in the Data Protection Manager thread. Although if you only posted it on 13th September you probabyl won't hear anything yet.

 

You may want to try and find out if they have actually received it as you didn't send it recorded delivery. They seem to have a habit of not receiving items that aren't sent recorded - strange that. ;)

 

Hopefully you'll be able to at least find out if they did get it.

 

Good luck. Lucid :)

Mindzai & Lucid vs Lloyds TSB

*Won unconditionally with contractual interest (29.85% compounded)

Lucid's Account - £749.62 * Joint Account - £2019.64 * Mindzai's Account - £595.65

*All settled in full - 6/2/07

*Hearings - 7/2/07

*Prelims sent - 9/8/06

_______

GOT A COURT DATE? A guide to the later stages

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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  • 4 weeks later...

I finally have my statements back!

 

All seems relatively straight forward but I want to check a couple of things with you guys:

 

a) What is the unauthorised borrowing rate for Lloyds TSB credit cards? (I know for current accounts it is 29.8% but I can't find the figure for credit cards anywhere).

 

b) I'm currently deciding whether to chase the unauthorised rate of compound interest on the amount in dispute. Could someone double check one figure for me so I can be at ease that my calculations are right? I have a specific charge of £60 on the 12/03/04 - by my calculations that works out to a total of £130.56 with compound interest at 29.8% (i.e. £70.56p of interest on the initial charge). Do those that know how these things work agree with that figure?

 

Still waiting to hear good things about other people going for the contractual rate - Mindzai/Lucid & Glenn how are you getting on with it?

 

Looks like I'll be trying to claim for about £4,400 in total so should keep it in small claims with any luck...

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Hi whiskers,

 

Sorry we're not around so much lately. We've been deprived of the luxury of broadband and are stuck with dialup internet at the moment. I've just used Mindzai's latest spreadsheet and put in Lloyds' unauthorised borrowing rate of 29.85% and a charge detail of £60 taken on 12th March 2004. The result I get is either £117.82 for monthly compounding and £118.67 for daily compunding. The interest for each is £57/58. So no I don't agree with your figure. ;)

 

I think that the rate you need to use for credit cards is the cash advance rate which is the highest one - if I'm remembering what i've read correctly.

 

At the moment our court dates for each of our sole account are February and we don't know about the joint account yet. We've had to return an AQ for that and are waiting to hear back.

 

Good luck. Lucid :)

Mindzai & Lucid vs Lloyds TSB

*Won unconditionally with contractual interest (29.85% compounded)

Lucid's Account - £749.62 * Joint Account - £2019.64 * Mindzai's Account - £595.65

*All settled in full - 6/2/07

*Hearings - 7/2/07

*Prelims sent - 9/8/06

_______

GOT A COURT DATE? A guide to the later stages

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Hi whiskers,

 

Sorry we're not around so much lately. We've been deprived of the luxury of broadband and are stuck with dialup internet at the moment. I've just used Mindzai's latest spreadsheet and put in Lloyds' unauthorised borrowing rate of 29.85% and a charge detail of £60 taken on 12th March 2004. The result I get is either £117.82 for monthly compounding and £118.67 for daily compunding. The interest for each is £57/58. So no I don't agree with your figure. ;)

 

The equation I'm using to calculate the interest is as follows:

 

=ChargeAmount*(1+0.298/365)^(DaysSinceCharge)

 

I think I found this formula on a few web sites dealing with compound interest - presumably Mindzai is using something different? :)

 

I think that the rate you need to use for credit cards is the cash advance rate which is the highest one - if I'm remembering what i've read correctly.

 

Ahh - that sounds sensible - I'll try to hunt it down.

 

Thanks for responding!

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Whiskers,

 

If you use Mindzai's spreadhseet - or Vampiress' spreadhseet in her chambers they will both compound the interest for you.

 

Lucid :)

Mindzai & Lucid vs Lloyds TSB

*Won unconditionally with contractual interest (29.85% compounded)

Lucid's Account - £749.62 * Joint Account - £2019.64 * Mindzai's Account - £595.65

*All settled in full - 6/2/07

*Hearings - 7/2/07

*Prelims sent - 9/8/06

_______

GOT A COURT DATE? A guide to the later stages

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Whiskers,

 

If you use Mindzai's spreadhseet - or Vampiress' spreadhseet in her chambers they will both compound the interest for you.

 

Lucid :)

 

I'm interested in the formula though - a lot of place stated the formula I'm using is correct for calculating compound daily interest :/

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