Jump to content


PCN for parking on a street in a Hackney council estate


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 3602 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

My son received a PCN from Hackney Council for Parking in a permit bay without clearly displaying a valid permit.

 

We challenged the PCN because the parking bays did not comply with the Traffic Signs Manual diagram 1032 or 1028.4

 

Hackney’s response was : the several Acts you have mentioned would have been applicable for on-street parking contraventions if the highlighted points were valid, however this contravention had occurred whilst the vehicle was parked on off-street estate parking bay and in what is essentially private land / property of Hackney. The contravention is valid and supported by the Traffic Management Order, additionally we have no report to suggest it is incorrect.

 

I have requested the TMO for the area so we can check TMO against the location. I am however cencerend that we will run out of time as they have given us 14 days from the date of thier response.

 

The car was parked on a street that did not have any barriers etc to restrict access or any signage to prohibit parking and I was very surpirsed to find out that it is a PRIVATE street.

 

Does anyone how we should proceed? Can we insisit that parking was on a street and therefore Traffic Regulations are valid and bays should have been signed as required by the Traffic Signs Manual

Hackney response 1 .pdf

PCN Hackney 1.pdf

google maps Buttermere walk.pdf

Edited by PYA
attachment
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The car was parked on a street that did not have any barriers etc to restrict access or any signage to prohibit parking and I was very surpirsed to find out that it is a PRIVATE street.

 

There are barriers at either end of the street and only open at the Forest Road end, together with a sign:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Buttermere+Walk+Hackney&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=&hnear=Buttermere+Walk,+Hackney,+Greater+London+E8+3,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.543986,-0.071282&spn=0.009341,0.013797&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.544089,-0.071281&panoid=_rpI4IoabYkld50Da-_D0Q&cbp=12,335.48,,0,0

 

You neeed to check the TMO to see whether it is as Hackney claims

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

In my opinion this still looks like an adopted street to me and as such the same regs should apply. There does appear to be some smaller 'car parks' off the street where the regs may diifer but I would say that parking along the street itself would not be considered 'off street parking' IMHO therefore I see there could be an issue about the inadequate signage.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, now you pointed out. I was expecting it to be closer to the junction. I note that there is no sign at the other end of the street. Presumably that barrier is never open then? This surely makes it a 'car park' rather than a street then. Strange. I think the OP needs to establish whether the road is considered to be a street or not.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you all for your efforts. I have been looking for the TMO online, but only found one relating to roadworks. Does anyone hae a tip on how to find the TMO so that we can check the signs are placed as outlined in the TMO? Thanks PYA

Link to post
Share on other sites

THE HACKNEY (HOUSING ESTATES, OFF-STREET PARKING PLACES) ORDER 2010 or similar is what you are looking for as its off street the signage issue is null and void providing there are some sort of signs. You will only get the TRO from the Council usually online versions are just a summary and not the full document.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This document doe not show me where the signs must be.

Is there any other way to prove that the road was not a private car park so that we can use the invalid bay marking argument?

Link to post
Share on other sites

It has been suggested that 'the law regarding decriminalised parking is concerned infringements on private land may not be enforced by "serving" penalty charge notices (PCN) under the guise of the Traffic Management Act '

 

I would appreciate your input as to whether this sign is within the scope of the Traffic Management Act and can therfore be enforced.

 

My 14 day are up tomorrow and I would appreciate your feedback.

Link to post
Share on other sites
It has been suggested that 'the law regarding decriminalised parking is concerned infringements on private land may not be enforced by "serving" penalty charge notices (PCN) under the guise of the Traffic Management Act '

 

I would appreciate your input as to whether this sign is within the scope of the Traffic Management Act and can therfore be enforced.

 

My 14 day are up tomorrow and I would appreciate your feedback.

 

Off street parking orders created under section 32 of the 1984 RTRA are enforceable under the TMA, signage has nothing to do with the TMA 2004.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/7/part/1

Link to post
Share on other sites

Off street parking orders created under section 32 of the 1984 RTRA are enforceable under the TMA.

 

'32 Power of local authorities to provide parking places.E+W+S

(1)Where for the purpose of relieving or preventing congestion of traffic it appears to a local authority to be necessary to provide within their area suitable parking places for vehicles, the local authority, subject to Parts I to III of Schedule 9 to this Act—

(a)may provide off-street parking places (whether above or below ground and whether or not consisting of or including buildings) together with means of entrance to and egress from them,

Please take a look at my attachment PCN Hackney 1 (attached to my orignal post) which shows that the parking was on a street not off-street.

 

unless of course this location can be considered off-street parking according to RTRA 1984 section 32 (1) (a) ??

 

Do I need to get hold of Hackney's TMO to prove that the location was not specified as off-street parking?????????? Please clarify - I am getting confused

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't it be simpler to just establish whether the street is listed as a 'Street' or not? If it is , then the bays along it can hardly be classed as 'off street' parking.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ask for the Traffic Order.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no such thing in law as a 'street' the terms used are road, carriageway and highway what you have to establish is that there is no public right of way over the road this is usually done by closing a gate at least once a year or errecting signs stating the fact its not a dedicated right of way.

Link to post
Share on other sites
There is no such thing in law as a 'street' the terms used are road, carriageway and highway what you have to establish is that there is no public right of way over the road this is usually done by closing a gate at least once a year or errecting signs stating the fact its not a dedicated right of way.

 

Surely then, this would give the street a 'private' status so maybe a PCN is not the appropiate 'penalty' to be issed. Would it not follow that the council are acting no different to a PPC if there is no public right of way here?

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Surely then, this would give the street a 'private' status so maybe a PCN is not the appropiate 'penalty' to be issed. Would it not follow that the council are acting no different to a PPC if there is no public right of way here?

 

No because unlike a PPC the RTRA 1984 and TMA 2004 gives local authorities the power to enforce parking.

Link to post
Share on other sites
No because unlike a PPC the RTRA 1984 and TMA 2004 gives local authorities the power to enforce parking.

 

Yes, I know that but dosn't that refer to ON street parking where the public have right of way or it being on a public highway?

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, I know that but dosn't that refer to ON street parking where the public have right of way or it being on a public highway?

 

No of course not how do you think LAs enforce car parks?

Link to post
Share on other sites
No of course not how do you think LAs enforce car parks?

 

We've now gone full circle and back to the issue of whether this is on or off street parking. Obviously car parks are 'off street' but we are back to the question of whether this is a steet or not. If it's a street then clearly the signage is inadequate but if it's not got public access (barriers) will the 2004 TMA apply without a 'special enforcement order' (assuming of course that there isn't one in place)?

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Link to post
Share on other sites
We've now gone full circle and back to the issue of whether this is on or off street parking. Obviously car parks are 'off street' but we are back to the question of whether this is a steet or not. If it's a street then clearly the signage is inadequate but if it's not got public access (barriers) will the 2004 TMA apply without a 'special enforcement order' (assuming of course that there isn't one in place)?

 

You are correct we have gone in a full circle and thinking about it the fact that there is a traffic order (I've seen it) designating it as a car park would mean it cannot be a 'street' as it has now been designated a car park. If they implemented a TRO making your road a cycle lane it would not matter what it was before it was implemented its now a cycle lane, that is the purpose of TROs.

Link to post
Share on other sites
You are correct we have gone in a full circle and thinking about it the fact that there is a traffic order (I've seen it) designating it as a car park would mean it cannot be a 'street' as it has now been designated a car park. If they implemented a TRO making your road a cycle lane it would not matter what it was before it was implemented its now a cycle lane, that is the purpose of TROs.

 

G & M, I am aware of this. I was not aware though that there is a TMO in place here and obviously neither does the OP. The OP may like to ask to see a copy before he decides on his next course of action.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...