PCN for parking on a street in a Hackney council estate

[PYA]

My son received a PCN from Hackney Council for Parking in a permit bay without clearly displaying a valid permit.

 

We challenged the PCN because the parking bays did not comply with the Traffic Signs Manual diagram 1032 or 1028.4

 

Hackney’s response was : the several Acts you have mentioned would have been applicable for on-street parking contraventions if the highlighted points were valid, however this contravention had occurred whilst the vehicle was parked on off-street estate parking bay and in what is essentially private land / property of Hackney. The contravention is valid and supported by the Traffic Management Order, additionally we have no report to suggest it is incorrect.

 

I have requested the TMO for the area so we can check TMO against the location. I am however cencerend that we will run out of time as they have given us 14 days from the date of thier response.

 

The car was parked on a street that did not have any barriers etc to restrict access or any signage to prohibit parking and I was very surpirsed to find out that it is a PRIVATE street.

 

Does anyone how we should proceed? Can we insisit that parking was on a street and therefore Traffic Regulations are valid and bays should have been signed as required by the Traffic Signs Manual

Hackney response 1 .pdf

PCN Hackney 1.pdf

google maps Buttermere walk.pdf

Edited May 31, 2011 by PYA
attachment

[Dragons Dennis]

Frankly, parking in Hackney I am amazed you found the car still had wheels when you returned!

[Michael Browne]

 

The car was parked on a street that did not have any barriers etc to restrict access or any signage to prohibit parking and I was very surpirsed to find out that it is a PRIVATE street.

 

There are barriers at either end of the street and only open at the Forest Road end, together with a sign:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Buttermere+Walk+Hackney&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=&hnear=Buttermere+Walk,+Hackney,+Greater+London+E8+3,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.543986,-0.071282&spn=0.009341,0.013797&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.544089,-0.071281&panoid=_rpI4IoabYkld50Da-_D0Q&cbp=12,335.48,,0,0

 

You neeed to check the TMO to see whether it is as Hackney claims

[sailor sam]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

In my opinion this still looks like an adopted street to me and as such the same regs should apply. There does appear to be some smaller 'car parks' off the street where the regs may diifer but I would say that parking along the street itself would not be considered 'off street parking' IMHO therefore I see there could be an issue about the inadequate signage.

[sailor sam]

There are barriers at either end of the street and only open at the Forest Road end, together with a sign:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Buttermere+Walk+Hackney&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=&hnear=Buttermere+Walk,+Hackney,+Greater+London+E8+3,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.543986,-0.071282&spn=0.009341,0.013797&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.544089,-0.071281&panoid=_rpI4IoabYkld50Da-_D0Q&cbp=12,335.48,,0,0

 

You neeed to check the TMO to see whether it is as Hackney claims

 

Cant see any barrier here?

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Buttermere+Walk+Hackney&aq=&sll=49.61071,10.195313&sspn=15.417798,46.362305&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Buttermere+Walk,+Hackney,+Greater+London+E8+3,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.54399,-0.071283&spn=0,0.022638&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.54399,-0.071283&panoid=iLhuGM1osa-ZpOmoJjkXRg&cbp=12,8.69,,0,-2.39

Edited May 31, 2011 by sailor sam

[Michael Browne]

Can you see the sign? The open barrier is just beyond it.

[sailor sam]

Yes, now you pointed out. I was expecting it to be closer to the junction. I note that there is no sign at the other end of the street. Presumably that barrier is never open then? This surely makes it a 'car park' rather than a street then. Strange. I think the OP needs to establish whether the road is considered to be a street or not.

[PYA]

Thank you all for your efforts. I have been looking for the TMO online, but only found one relating to roadworks. Does anyone hae a tip on how to find the TMO so that we can check the signs are placed as outlined in the TMO? Thanks PYA

[green_and_mean]

THE HACKNEY (HOUSING ESTATES, OFF-STREET PARKING PLACES) ORDER 2010 or similar is what you are looking for as its off street the signage issue is null and void providing there are some sort of signs. You will only get the TRO from the Council usually online versions are just a summary and not the full document.

[PYA]

This document doe not show me where the signs must be.

Is there any other way to prove that the road was not a private car park so that we can use the invalid bay marking argument?

[green_and_mean]

There is no need to show where the signs should be the signs should be clear that is all that is required.

[PYA]

It has been suggested that 'the law regarding decriminalised parking is concerned infringements on private land may not be enforced by "serving" penalty charge notices (PCN) under the guise of the Traffic Management Act '

 

I would appreciate your input as to whether this sign is within the scope of the Traffic Management Act and can therfore be enforced.

 

My 14 day are up tomorrow and I would appreciate your feedback.

[green_and_mean]

It has been suggested that 'the law regarding decriminalised parking is concerned infringements on private land may not be enforced by "serving" penalty charge notices (PCN) under the guise of the Traffic Management Act '

 

I would appreciate your input as to whether this sign is within the scope of the Traffic Management Act and can therfore be enforced.

 

My 14 day are up tomorrow and I would appreciate your feedback.

 

Off street parking orders created under section 32 of the 1984 RTRA are enforceable under the TMA, signage has nothing to do with the TMA 2004.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/7/part/1

[PYA]

Off street parking orders created under section 32 of the 1984 RTRA are enforceable under the TMA.

 

'32 Power of local authorities to provide parking places.E+W+S

(1)Where for the purpose of relieving or preventing congestion of traffic it appears to a local authority to be necessary to provide within their area suitable parking places for vehicles, the local authority, subject to Parts I to III of Schedule 9 to this Act—

(a)may provide off-street parking places (whether above or below ground and whether or not consisting of or including buildings) together with means of entrance to and egress from them,

Please take a look at my attachment PCN Hackney 1 (attached to my orignal post) which shows that the parking was on a street not off-street.

 

unless of course this location can be considered off-street parking according to RTRA 1984 section 32 (1) (a) ??

 

Do I need to get hold of Hackney's TMO to prove that the location was not specified as off-street parking?????????? Please clarify - I am getting confused

[sailor sam]

Wouldn't it be simpler to just establish whether the street is listed as a 'Street' or not? If it is , then the bays along it can hardly be classed as 'off street' parking.

[PYA]

and how would I do that? are streets that are recognised as such listed anywhere?

[sailor sam]

Ask for the Traffic Order.

[green_and_mean]

There is no such thing in law as a 'street' the terms used are road, carriageway and highway what you have to establish is that there is no public right of way over the road this is usually done by closing a gate at least once a year or errecting signs stating the fact its not a dedicated right of way.

[sailor sam]

There is no such thing in law as a 'street' the terms used are road, carriageway and highway what you have to establish is that there is no public right of way over the road this is usually done by closing a gate at least once a year or errecting signs stating the fact its not a dedicated right of way.

 

Surely then, this would give the street a 'private' status so maybe a PCN is not the appropiate 'penalty' to be issed. Would it not follow that the council are acting no different to a PPC if there is no public right of way here?

[green_and_mean]

Surely then, this would give the street a 'private' status so maybe a PCN is not the appropiate 'penalty' to be issed. Would it not follow that the council are acting no different to a PPC if there is no public right of way here?

 

No because unlike a PPC the RTRA 1984 and TMA 2004 gives local authorities the power to enforce parking.

[sailor sam]

No because unlike a PPC the RTRA 1984 and TMA 2004 gives local authorities the power to enforce parking.

 

Yes, I know that but dosn't that refer to ON street parking where the public have right of way or it being on a public highway?

[green_and_mean]

Yes, I know that but dosn't that refer to ON street parking where the public have right of way or it being on a public highway?

 

No of course not how do you think LAs enforce car parks?

[sailor sam]

No of course not how do you think LAs enforce car parks?

 

We've now gone full circle and back to the issue of whether this is on or off street parking. Obviously car parks are 'off street' but we are back to the question of whether this is a steet or not. If it's a street then clearly the signage is inadequate but if it's not got public access (barriers) will the 2004 TMA apply without a 'special enforcement order' (assuming of course that there isn't one in place)?

[green_and_mean]

We've now gone full circle and back to the issue of whether this is on or off street parking. Obviously car parks are 'off street' but we are back to the question of whether this is a steet or not. If it's a street then clearly the signage is inadequate but if it's not got public access (barriers) will the 2004 TMA apply without a 'special enforcement order' (assuming of course that there isn't one in place)?

 

You are correct we have gone in a full circle and thinking about it the fact that there is a traffic order (I've seen it) designating it as a car park would mean it cannot be a 'street' as it has now been designated a car park. If they implemented a TRO making your road a cycle lane it would not matter what it was before it was implemented its now a cycle lane, that is the purpose of TROs.

[sailor sam]

You are correct we have gone in a full circle and thinking about it the fact that there is a traffic order (I've seen it) designating it as a car park would mean it cannot be a 'street' as it has now been designated a car park. If they implemented a TRO making your road a cycle lane it would not matter what it was before it was implemented its now a cycle lane, that is the purpose of TROs.

 

G & M, I am aware of this. I was not aware though that there is a TMO in place here and obviously neither does the OP. The OP may like to ask to see a copy before he decides on his next course of action.