Council letter accusing me of alleged disabled badge fraud

[green_and_mean]

There doesn't need to be. We've been over this already. You can park with the BB, in order that the holder can get into the car to be driven off from that place if they need to.

 

Why would they park in town to pick someone up that was at home? In normal circumstances you are correct which why it is very hard to catch BB abusers on street but in this case it seems to have been thought after investigation the BB holder was not going to be picked up. Paying the PCN hasn't exactly helped it does rather look like an admission of guilt.

[Dragons Dennis]

Why would they park in town to pick someone up that was at home?

 

 

I am actually starting to like you! My thoughts exactly.

[green_and_mean]

But what law? OK put this way: Under what law/act the prosecution will be? Fraud Act?? Mean to say prosecution ie charge.

 

You can get prosecuted under the RTA or Fraud act but as its a first 'offence' with very little evidence its likely to just be a friendly warning if the OP doesn't make it any worse. The PCN has been paid no attempt was made to appeal the PCN using the badge as a defence, the simple option is to speak to the Council state that the driver was unaware that the badge was left in the car as the car is often used to carry the holder they parked in contravention due to not understanding the signs and paid the PCN and didn't even realise the badge had been used until the letter from the Council arrived.....simples!

[Dragons Dennis]

I put the badge on display and go off to meet up with my sister who is waiting for me....

 

 

Not really an option Green & Mean as the OP clearly knew that they deliberately displayed the blue badge. A better defence would be to plead ignorance, as in didn't realise fully the rules but do now. genuine error, no intention to defraud. This is all of course on the assumption that a certain BB holder actually went shopping that day at all. If they were at home, I wouldn't even go there.

[hhh_88873]

Ive read these points with some interest as I recently had a similar experience. I am insured on my grandfathers car as he fairly regularly is too poorly to go out or drive himself. I recently was staying at his for the weekend and he was struggling to move about the house let alone anything else, so I was duly dispatched to the chemist to pick up angina medication and another prescription. I had his blue badge, parked outside the chemist, grabbed his prescriptions and returned to the car to be accosted by a council CEO who demanded to see my ID and to check the badge. I explained quite civilly that I was on a direct errand for the badge holder, (my grandfather) and duly showed him the prescription.

 

The CEO became quite incensed at this point and attempted to seize my grandfathers BB, claiming he was going to 'confiscate it' and I should stay where I was because he was going to have me arrested. The pharmamicst came out of the chemist at this point and explained I was perfectly legitimate as he knew my grandfather as well, only for the CEO to tell him it was none of his concern. I decided enough was enough at this point and got back in the car, still holding the BB.

 

The CEO then grabbed the car door, pulled it open and attempted to pull me out by my shirt! I got back out, removed his hands from me by the wrists and said perfectly calmly 'Touch me again and I will make a citizens arrest for assault'

 

I had a phone call about an hour later from a police officer who is a friend of the family who found the whole thing deeply amusing and said the CEO had received a serious b****ing for his behaviour and I wasnt to worry.

 

Was I in the wrong?

[Dragons Dennis]

Yes, you were 100% wrong. There was no reason at all for YOU to use the blue badge as you are capable of walking to the chemist. The blue badge could and should have been siezed. You were wrong and at risk of further prosecution for refusing to surrender the badge. However, the CEO was commiting an offence by opening your car door and grabbing hold of you.

 

Your grandad can expect at least a letter/visit regarding allowing someone else to use the badge and you will almost certainly and rightly be prosecuted for using it.

 

Do you think it is right that a wheelchair user should park further away just because you were on an errund? I hope they throw the book at you!

[esmerobbo]

Yes you were wrong the pharmacist was wrong and the police officer was wrong! I have heard many people claim that because they are acting for the blue badge holder they can use the concessions.

 

The holder of the badge must be using the concession.

 

The CEO seemed a bit heavy handed and should not have touched you or the car. If they got the details off the badge I will assume as DD says your grandfather will receive a letter asking him to explain the situation.

[crem]

Yes, you were 100% wrong. There was no reason at all for YOU to use the blue badge as you are capable of walking to the chemist. The blue badge could and should have been siezed. You were wrong and at risk of further prosecution for refusing to surrender the badge. However, the CEO was commiting an offence by opening your car door and grabbing hold of you.

 

Your grandad can expect at least a letter/visit regarding allowing someone else to use the badge and you will almost certainly and rightly be prosecuted for using it.

 

Do you think it is right that a wheelchair user should park further away just because you were on an errund? I hope they throw the book at you!

 

Why is it that when an issue comes up with a PCN, then every level of understanding is shown to the OP and every avenue of possible "avoidance" of paying the penalty is explored, (whether the OP in that instance did it knowingly or not), yet as soon as a blue badge is mentioned, the "blue badge brigade" are up in arms. Double standards clearly being the word of the day!

 

The OP clearly made a mistake as he is asking the question about was he wrong or not. Simple, polite correction of his error was all that was required.

[Dragons Dennis]

Blue badge brigade? Does the fact that I am disabled and highly object to the sheer number of people who 'accidentally' forget they are not disabled when using a blue badge make me a blue badge brigade member? Do you have something against disabled people then Crem? Let us all just forget it. Oh, and lets forget drunk drivers, speeding, vandalism and theft whilst we are at it. I am sure the drunks forgot they had been drinking, the speeders made a mistake as they killed a child at 60mph in a 30 and the thieves accidentally took someone elses belongings. The OP deliberitely used a blue badge which tells the world that a disabled peson needed to park there at that time, but they didn't did they. Just another selfish or ignorant driver who got caught and I say again, I hope they throw the book at them.

[nero12]

For a CEO to grab a member of the public and attempt to hold that person against thier will is against the law --- he has absolutely no right to do so.

The operationla guidance is quite clear -- if there has been a crime then there is a duty to report --nothing more.

IMV this person got off light

[crem]

Just another selfish or ignorant driver who got caught and I say again, I hope they throw the book at them.

 

Yep, just like all the selfish drivers who park in a "loading bay only" when not unloading, who park on a DYL after 6pm coz they thought they weren't in use at that time of night, who park on a yellow line within a CPZ because they happened to notice that 1 sign at 1 of the 15 entrances to that CPZ happened to be missing or finally the selfish driver who is caught bang to rights on a restriction but there happens to be a spelling mistake on the PCN.

 

We try to help them all on CAG or do you think these are all scoundrels too? If you do, I am not sure why you are on the forum giving "help"?

[green_and_mean]

Was I in the wrong?

 

Yes

[green_and_mean]

IMV this person got off light

 

Which person are you refering to the CEO or the driver?

[lamma]

 

The holder of the badge must be using the concession.

 

.

 

but they don't have to be in the vehicle

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/682/regulation/14/made

[green_and_mean]

but they don't have to be in the vehicle

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/682/regulation/14/made

 

I don't beleive anyone said they did?

[honeybee13]

From the link:

(2) An individual’s badge may be displayed on a vehicle while it is parked if it–(a)has been driven by the holder, or has been used to carry the holder, to the place where it is parked; or(b)is to be driven by the holder, or is to be used to carry the holder, from that place.

I don't claim to be an expert here, far from it, but the OP who recently arrived didn't mention having his disabled grandfather with him, unless he would care to elaborate.

 

As I read the above, an able-bodied person running an errand for a blue badge holder shouldn't use the badge.

 

Apologies if I've lost the plot.

 

My best, HB

[nero12]

Which person are you refering to the CEO or the driver?

 

Seeing as CEO's do not have the powers of detention the last time I checked this CEO in this particualr instance has indeed got off light -- the kind police man could well have charged the guy with a public order offence section 5 possibly , which inturn would have got him the sack. If we are to believe the OP there are atleast 2 witnesses to this

 

 

 

Unless someone wishes to deffend this course of action --

[esmerobbo]

but they don't have to be in the vehicle

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/682/regulation/14/made

 

That's why I said using the concession! The poster could have took his Granddad to the chemist. used the Blue Badge to park and wait while his granddad used the chemist.

Edited July 1, 2011 by esmerobbo

[green_and_mean]

Bit strong isn't it G & M... even for you!

 

Ignorance is no defence in law, the OP clearly stated they a) used the badge fraudulently and b) refused to hand over the badge for inspection both of which are criminal offences. Anyone can use reasonable force to prevent a crime or to effect or assist in the effect of arresting an offender so the 'scuffle' that ensued when the OP tried to make off with someone elses BB is not as cut and dried as some people make out. Assuming you can use a relatives badge to run an errand for them in my view is a stupid as thinking you can use an OAPs bus pass to go do their shopping.

[Dragons Dennis]

Yep, just like all the selfish drivers who park in a "loading bay only" when not unloading, who park on a DYL after 6pm coz they thought they weren't in use at that time of night, who park on a yellow line within a CPZ because they happened to notice that 1 sign at 1 of the 15 entrances to that CPZ happened to be missing or finally the selfish driver who is caught bang to rights on a restriction but there happens to be a spelling mistake on the PCN.

 

We try to help them all on CAG or do you think these are all scoundrels too? If you do, I am not sure why you are on the forum giving "help"?

 

 

I don't want to fall out with you Crem. There is a significant dfifference between someone who directly effects disabled people and one who parks on a yellow line and gets a ticket, or takes a loading bay causing a van driver to walk further. We are talking about people in wheelchairs who should not be dierctly inconvenieced by thoughtless or deliberate abuse of parking or blue badges.

 

Many times I have been unable to cross the road in my chair at a dropped kerb, because someone has parked across the dropped kerb on the other side. I have been unable to proceed along a footpath because of someone parked half on it, who when I asked if they could move the car told me to go around on the road. Park the car on the footpath and I will take a wheelchair into the road????

 

I do not have any fondness or admiration for people who park on yellow lines, but I do like to see the parking regulations used correctly and if the signage or markings are incorrect, then it is wrong to make that person pay for a ticket that has no validity. However, as you will have noticed, I have very strong views on disability. Not just because I am now disabled myself, but because I used to actively camppaign for disability rights long before I got my illness.

 

I apologise if I offended. Wasn't intended.

[hhh_88873]

What is more interesting is that I wasnt even in a blue badge bay so there was nothing like taking a bay away from a deserving person. I was merely on a single yellow outside the chemist.

 

And as has been outlined in another post, the advice we had been given was that as I was picking up a prescription for someone who couldnt get it themselves, then it was ok. Rightly or wrongly, thats what I was told by a council official in the blue badge department over the phone.

[hhh_88873]

Sorry, didnt read all the posts on the board before replying.

 

Mo my grandfather wasnt with me at the time as it was raining and he was ill enough as it was.

And I did willingly present the badge for inspection, as I wasnt aware that I had committed an offence after receiving the advice outlined above.

 

The only time I took the badge back was when the CEO got mouthy and when I did that and got in the car was when the other side of the altercation occured.

 

Im not one to use a BB illegally if I actually know the use of is an offence, but as I have already said, weve had to use it before when he was coming out of hospital and I had to go back to the hospital twice to get his chair etc when he first came back out as it didnt fit in the car we were using at the time and I had to use mine.

 

And no, there is no prosecution pending as theyve decided the CEO was 'over zealous' in his actions on what was decided to be a 'misunderstanding of the rules as opposed to an intentional flagrant misuse'

Edited July 1, 2011 by hhh_88873
Added information

[Huff&Puff]

Then I can assure you that the information you were given was dead wrong. It is in fact a criminal offence to use another person's Blue Badge if they are not present in the car. Plus the Blue Badge holder could lose their badge for allowing it to be so used.

[green_and_mean]

The only time I took the badge back was when the CEO got mouthy and when I did that and got in the car was when the other side of the altercation occured.

 

 

Seems a bit odd he gave it back then tried to drag you out the car??

[hhh_88873]

That may well have been because I outlined him as an arrogant jobsworth (or words to that effect) after he snatched the badge out of my hands and was literally waving it in my face about 6 inches from my nose lol