Unlawful deduction of wages help

[dreadpiratesteve]

You dont need to know who wrote the statement, however there must be the full original available for the tribunal to see.

 

Secondly, reading this thread it really does seem the manager couldn't organise the proverbial!

 

Out of curiosity, what evidence do they have to substantiate the alledged theft, other than the CCTV? By this I mean are there sales reports of the till, itemising sales registered at what time, cashing up sheets that show the till was short and a stock report that clearly shows stock was missing!

[dom2599]

You dont need to know who wrote the statement, however there must be the full original available for the tribunal to see.

 

Secondly, reading this thread it really does seem the manager couldn't organise the proverbial!

 

Out of curiosity, what evidence do they have to substantiate the alledged theft, other than the CCTV? By this I mean are there sales reports of the till, itemising sales registered at what time, cashing up sheets that show the till was short and a stock report that clearly shows stock was missing!

 

Hi and thanks for the reply. my overall impression is exactly that, very poor employers. they are relying solely on the cctv footage, if they are relying on anything else they haven't declared it. i have managed to view the footage (although they don't know this) it clearly shows money being put.in to the till, they have also removed 30 minutes of footage although in their statement they state something specific happened during that missing 30 minutes!?

 

The footage also shows every time a sale is made wither the cost and change to be given etc, i don't know.if the till are configured correctly as the date and time compared.tks.the cctv date and time are totally different, if they can't set the times correctly his do we know the prices etc are configured correctly as well!?

[dreadpiratesteve]

So the CCTV shows the sale? Is this shown on the till screen or as a subtitle on the CCTV? What is the quality of the CCTV - can you make out what is written on a bottle or money? Is it real time or does it jump every few seconds?

 

Either way, I would certainly question the configuration of the date/ time of both the CCTV and till. Secondly, I would still like to have a paper report of the nights transactions, not to mention a cash report for the end of shift for that till. Not to mention a stock report to show that stock had gone missing - assuming they do regular stock reports! As for the 30 minutes of missing footage, do they have any other evidence to substantiate the statement?

 

Again, I would re-iterate the need for a end of shift report for that till to see if there was a variance in the cash. What is the "normal" procedure for replacing change in the till? Is the corresponding amount taken out? (Eg: 1 bag of £1 is £20 so if I placed a bag of £1 in the till is £20 taken out). Also did anyone else use the till?

[dom2599]

So the CCTV shows the sale? Is this shown on the till screen or as a subtitle on the CCTV? What is the quality of the CCTV - can you make out what is written on a bottle or money? Is it real time or does it jump every few seconds?

 

Either way, I would certainly question the configuration of the date/ time of both the CCTV and till. Secondly, I would still like to have a paper report of the nights transactions, not to mention a cash report for the end of shift for that till. Not to mention a stock report to show that stock had gone missing - assuming they do regular stock reports! As for the 30 minutes of missing footage, do they have any other evidence to substantiate the statement?

 

Again, I would re-iterate the need for a end of shift report for that till to see if there was a variance in the cash. What is the "normal" procedure for replacing change in the till? Is the corresponding amount taken out? (Eg: 1 bag of £1 is £20 so if I placed a bag of £1 in the till is £20 taken out). Also did anyone else use the till?

 

Hi dreadpiratesteve,

 

Thanks again for your input, i totally missed the stock take, till issue!! thanks for that:clap2:...i cant wait to tackle these idiots.

 

What they have basically said in their statement was that they were monitoring the £1 coins, my friend said she paid in change so the £1 coins wouldn't have changed. The missing half hour CCTV would apparently show the manager checking the till, my friend said it would also show her laughing and joking with my friend, so maybe they don't want to show that!

 

The judge has asked them to explain why they sent a DVD that cannot be viewed (although i got some software to do this), i honestly don't think they know how to do it, i hope not as ive asked the judge to throw this out if i cannot see it.

 

I think i would have an easy time convincing the judge that if they cant be bothered to configure the till time correctly, then why should we believe the rest of the till is configured correctly. Plus we have it in writing from them that they sacked her 2 hours prior to what the CCTV footage shows her still working! you couldn't make it up!

[dreadpiratesteve]

Hi dreadpiratesteve,

 

Thanks again for your input, i totally missed the stock take, till issue!! thanks forthat:clap2:...i cant wait to tackle these idiots.

 

What they have basically said in their statement was that they were monitoring the £1 coins, my friend said she paid in change so the £1 coins wouldn't have changed. The missing half hour CCTV would apparently show the manager checking the till, my friend said it would also show her laughing and joking with my friend, so maybe they don't want to show that!

 

The judge has asked them to explain why they sent a DVD that cannot be viewed (although i got some software to do this), i honestly don't think they know how to do it, i hope not as ive asked the judge to throw this out if i cannot see it.

 

I think i would have an easy time convincing the judge that if they cant be bothered to configure the till time correctly, then why should we believe the rest of the till is configured correctly. Plus we have it in writing from them that they sacked her 2 hours prior to what the CCTV footage shows her still working! you couldn't make it up!

 

Hi Dom,

 

If I wanted to deduct someone's wages because of theft I would want evidence of what was missing. Whence the questions regarding the tills and the cashing up procedure. As you said they were only focusing on £1 coins. Either way I would, at the tribunal question:

 

A: is there a till shortfall/ cash up sheet along with a safe check recorded? The safe check would have been done the following morning.

 

B: sales report for the till your friend was using and a stock take report done between the shifts your friend worked, not only of the product allegedly stolen but along with other products - I bet there is a chronic problem of stock shortages in the place!

 

C: a copy of the WSoPoE signed by your friend - they should have this in her file! In particular highlighting the deductions section and also a copy of the disciplinary and grievance procedure!

 

As I say leave this till the tribunal itself!

 

Everything you've done on your side is great, non holidays etc! This nightspot isn't part of a large national chain is it?

 

You'd have never have guessed I sacked someone for something similar - didn't deduct wages though as I'm nice!

[dom2599]

Hi Dom,

 

If I wanted to deduct someone's wages because of theft I would want evidence of what was missing. Whence the questions regarding the tills and the cashing up procedure. As you said they were only focusing on £1 coins. Either way I would, at the tribunal question:

 

A: is there a till shortfall/ cash up sheet along with a safe check recorded? The safe check would have been done the following morning.

 

B: sales report for the till your friend was using and a stock take report done between the shifts your friend worked, not only of the product allegedly stolen but along with other products - I bet there is a chronic problem of stock shortages in the place!

 

C: a copy of the WSoPoE signed by your friend - they should have this in her file! In particular highlighting the deductions section and also a copy of the disciplinary and grievance procedure!

 

As I say leave this till the tribunal itself!

 

Everything you've done on your side is great, non holidays etc! This nightspot isn't part of a large national chain is it?

 

You'd have never have guessed I sacked someone for something similar - didn't deduct wages though as I'm nice!

 

Hi dreadpiratesteve,

 

No they are not a national nightclub, just a local one that takes liberties with young students by the looks of it.

 

With regards to the contract of employment, they have provided a 'blank' one with their documents list! my friend never signed one..

 

They have not mentioned any stock take info, cash info or anything else with regards to this, they are relying on the CCTV only..

 

I will certainly be using what you have said at the ET, i'm due to put in another offer to ACAS, although i know they will reject this..

 

Cheers

 

Dom

[dom2599]

Things have taken a nasty twist here....last night my family friend and her partner (female) and 2 others went to a pub which is owned by the family who own the place she was sacked from, she stated that she had to walk past the place she was sacked from in order to get to this other place, when they arrived, the owner and manager were waiting and demanded to know who which one was my family friend, when asked why, a load of abuse was launched from these two, loads of swearing and calling her a dyke (yes she is gay) and accusing her of theft, she was very shook up by this and is now quite worried about how things are going to pan out now, she's worried there may be some fall out after the ET. I have all the statements with regards to last night, should i inform the Judge with regards to this as she is worried about intimidation at the ET?

 

Thanks again

[dreadpiratesteve]

Report it to the police and get a crime reference number.

 

Even if nothing comes of it from the police, if something were to happen further down the road it can be traced!

 

Not entirely sure if you can submit further evidence to the judge before the tribunal but even at the tribunal you can mention this incident and it *may* even swing the judge into thinking that the allegations are based on discrimination based on sexuality!

[Musey]

I can't often contribute to the employment threads but read them with great interest. However this is a subject I feel I can comment on, your family friend if she is so disposed should report this incident to the police making it clear that she views it as a "hate crime" based on her sexuality. It is no more acceptable to call her a dyke or make reference to her sexuality in a derogatory fashion than it would be to abuse a client based on their race or religion. Hate crime is an issue the police take seriously and rightly so. With that said, the judgement in going to a venue owned and managed by the people she is taking to ET has to be questioned, she would perhaps be better chosing other pubs/clubs to go to as it is unlikely they will welcome her with open arms

Edited August 29, 2011 by Musey

[dom2599]

Hi,

 

Thanks to both replies, i have spoken to her and asked what she was doing in going there in the first place, she said she has been on numerous occasions after she was sacked, i've told her to forget about the episode and to concentrate on the ET, i'm sure any pay out will feel better later on.

 

I have submitted our second offer to ACAS, the rejected the first and made a counter offer of what the owe her and nothing else, i'm sure they will only offer the same as a second offer.......

[dom2599]

Just been told by a reliable source that the respondent has got all other employees to Sign contracts and all other bits they should have done in the first place! I am taking that as a bit of a result for the employees

[dom2599]

I've just checked my paperwork and they are coming up to the 40 days since i sent the SAR with the postal order, im not expecting anything from them to be honest; but i have a couple of questions, if they fail within the 40 days i will send a reminder to them, but if they have cashed the postal order but don't send what is requested have they committed an offence? And should it be reported?

[dom2599]

Just an update, i have had an offer from the respondent and my family friend has accepted this, it's for £451, she says that she wants to draw a line under this now and move on:| she has started a new job a couple of weeks ago, so wants this over..........it's a pity she has not had her day in court because i think we would have wiped the floor with them, but if she's happy, then so am i.

 

Now to rock the boat with regards to the SAR...

[Sidewinder]

The fact that they have settled is a strong indication that they realised that they were going to lose and in terms of where this all started, the payment probably represents a result.

 

Hopefully the agreement included an assurance of an unblemished record as well. Congratulations for sticking with it and hopefully you get a drink out of it

[dom2599]

The fact that they have settled is a strong indication that they realised that they were going to lose and in terms of where this all started, the payment probably represents a result.

 

Hopefully the agreement included an assurance of an unblemished record as well. Congratulations for sticking with it and hopefully you get a drink out of it

 

 

Thanks for that sidewinder and a big thank you to all who have helped over the past few months, hopefully with all i have learnt i can pass on through these boards

[honeybee13]

Excellent news, and well done. Please stick around and help when you feel you can.

 

My best, HB

[dom2599]

Ah well, it was good while it lasted, ACAS have just told me they have pulled the offer and put a new offer of £175, he states that they have taken advice about the holiday pay and that a court would only offer the last years holiday pay and not the 16 months i was chasing, i told him to tell them that i have also taken advice and that because they failed to provide a contract of employment then we may also get a months wage for that, i told him to tell them that it was £450 or tribunal, no more dialogue would be entered in to.

I have also sent an email to the tribunal asking for the cctv dvd to be struck out as they have still not supplied one after the judge asked them gor an explanation 4 weeks ago

[dom2599]

Well, it seems after the respondent took 'advice' the deal is back on, so much so as they are being very negotiable! must have been told they don't stand a chance at ET, although they are trying to negotiate things like 'claimant is not allowed to speak to anyone about no employment contract being supplied' and 'not allowed in to any of their venues', i told them she will talk to whoever about whatever she wants and they will not restrict where she goes, if they want to bar her, they can do it verbally, they don't need a contract........idiots!

[dom2599]

Ive just spoken with ACAS as i have had 2 letters from the tribunal that puts us in a very good position over the respondent, ACAS have said that because i have accepted their offer, although nothing is in writing or signed that we now cannot pul out of this, is this correct? She emailed me a draft of what she was going to put in the COT3 but i rejected part of it.

 

Any help greatly apreciated

[honeybee13]

Hello there. I understand that a verbal agreement is binding with ACAS negotiating. It surprised me too when I learned that.

 

Hopefully someone here will know how you stand if you disagree with part of the COT3. What did ACAS say about it?

 

My best, HB

[dom2599]

Hello there. I understand that a verbal agreement is binding with ACAS negotiating. It surprised me too when I learned that.

 

Hopefully someone here will know how you stand if you disagree with part of the COT3. What did ACAS say about it?

 

My best, HB

 

Hi HB,

 

We are going ahead with the agreement now to bring closure to this, its costing them a lot more than she would have got if they had paid at the beginning and i also got a reference from them, so although we never had our day in court to humiliate these idiots, we are still looking at it as a win.....

 

Also, speaking with another staff member employed by these people, she stated 'we have been told that we don't get any paid holidays'! so these bottom dwellers have not learnt!! i told her if she wanted me to write a letter i would, although she wants to keep her job, but will use it if needed in the future.......some people just don't learn.