Where do our donations go?

[Number6]

Sorry, stumped!

 

Never was much good at guessing games!

 

Pete

[Number6]

PM me

 

Pete

[meagain]

All of which reminds me of a spoof of the NSPCC advert narrative I made up while drunk one night:

 

"He's only a child, he can't understand any of this. But every day, hundreds of children like young Partario have to go home to it. With your help, we can put a stop to the cruelty that is Kate Bush's new album."

[Thailand]

OOOoooohhhhh *watches with interest*!!

[Guest willowb]

But every day, hundreds of children

 

I didn't think she sold that many! :p

 

I dare you to say that on the KB Forum......you'd be subject to a hissyfit like you've never seen before:eek: ....and that's just the guys! LOL

 

Wxx

[veryannoyed]

Getting back to the original point...

 

I used to be a member of a 'not for profit online community' which helped each other similar to this site in many ways. Initially it was run free of charge until it got to a size where the technology and hosting bils got to much for the founders to cope with. So an annual fee was introduced, with monthly accounts posted on the forum of exactly how much income and expenditure there was. This all rolled along great for a year or so and the site got more and more successful, faster and faster as the new servers came online etc. Then all of a sudden accounts were no longer posted. Questions were asked. It was always stated that the site was 'not for profit', now these statements disappeared. Members started to get disgruntled. Many, including myself, didn't renew our membership fees and so eventually the whole thing lost its integrity and a great many of its members.

 

I think the message here is that many members of that forum felt 'cheated' in that they were quite happy to contribute to the 'community' when everything was open and above board, but once things got all cloak-and-dagger, they felt people were profiting from it when they always maintained they wouldn't.

 

Two ways around this as far as I see it if you want to get people to contribute:

 

a) Set CAG/BAG up as a proper charitable organisation, where all income is declared and all expenses (including when it becomes possible) salaries of administrators and hopefully a full-time lawyer. This would also be very tax-efficient, so we don't end up with Blair and Brown taking a slice of our donations when THEY are ultimately responsible for their various government departments that are failing in their duties to prosecute the banks etc.

 

b) state clearly that CAG is a business venture and charge for access. Even if it is only £1 to join, that would have been £70k in the bank so far, which I'm guessing is probably more than you have received in donations?

 

I favour the charity option for several reasons:

1) it is open and transparent in accounting

2) people feel 'safer' donating to a charity

3) the aims of the site are charitable in any case

4) there could be a possibility of grant funding for costs

5) the media is far more likely to give favourable advertising rates

 

Thats just a few ideas off the top of my head. What I'd hate to see is this site go down in a blaze of flame-wars like the other one eventually did. People get very tetchy about money, as you well know!

 

By running an open forum site, and asking for donations, you are laying yourselves wide open for continued quizzing as to what you do with the money. Don't let it ruin what is one of the best sites on the web!

 

FOR THE RECORD: I am not the least bit interested whether or not the admins eventually make a profit. I'd be more worried if the prospect of eventually getting something back was NOT there, as they may eventually despair and interest may wain and the site die. Unfortunately if my claims are succesful I won't actually get any physical money back as HSBC don't owe me as much as I owe them, but I will still make a donation out of my own money once it goes through and my financial situation isn't teetering quite so close to oblivion!

[dave]

What I'd hate to see is this site go down in a blaze of flame-wars like the other one eventually did.

 

Which other one?

[ozzywizard]

I used to be a member of a 'not for profit online community' which helped each other similar to this site in many ways.

 

Think he meant this one Dave.

[veryannoyed]

No Dave and Ozzy, don't worry... I don't mean CAG/BAG - I'd better not name the other site as I don't want to end up in some legal battle or other for suggesting that the owners of the other site acted improperly in any way by taking was was supposed to be a 'not for profit community site' into what became a private profit making venture. It was NOT a consumer action type of forum. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough in my original post!

 

I just think that if a clear statement was made as to the actual, whats the word?, "status" or "constitution" of CAG then it would stop any quibbling, which with experience on the other forum will only get worse as it gets bigger. Nip it in the bud!

 

I personally think the site now has enough information to justify a small 'membership fee', but I also understand that it may well be against the principles of Dave and BF if they believe the information should be free for all. I also understand fully how much it costs to run IT systems (I had an IT company a few years back) and obviously this has to be paid for somehow, hence my suggestion that perhaps a properly constituted registered charity could be the way forward, from which I'm sure not one person on this site would object to the admin staff drawing a wage comensurate with their effort from (if there's ever enough money in the kitty!). Better still will be sometime in the future when maybe a full-time legally trained member of staff could be employed.

[ellemmjay]

We live in a consumer society and each and every one of us on this site has suffered through ignorance of consumer rights and laws. I would conservatively estimate that 95% of the members on this site would not have had the wherewithal/ability/tenacity to start let alone follow our claims through without the assistance and guidance of the two founders, the mods and the site helpers.

 

Not one of us complain vocally at the salaries and profits reaped by CEO of whichever bank have fleeced us in the past and I for one have absolutely no problem if all the official helpers were earning millions out of this ( I know...... I'm sure they wish they were )

 

They have provided a service and we should have no problem paying for that. We are in a unique position - if we benefit from the service provided we can choose whether or not to pay. No one asks for any money up front and if we fail to pay no one slaps a penalty charge or sends the bailiffs in. I am not aware of any other service that can be obtained in such a manner.

 

And as to what they spend the money on........that's their business - no more than it's anyone else's business what I'll spend my money on when that poxy, shameful Abbey bank pay up.......

 

 

 

( A new shed and a dyson if you must know )

 

 

 

Elle;)

[andrew1]

I have only just come across this thread. I wrote a post in May on this http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/8829-give-us-your-money.html and I haven't changed my mind. Just what I said has generally happened. Once people get their money they have spent it before it comes in the post. It's human nature I'm afraid. Those genuine ones who are truely thankful and in a position to donate are the heros too. Everyone who runs this site deserves anything that comes thier way and I couldn't care less if the lads were making millions off the site - it's brought dignity and hope to thousands who otherwise were being trodden to the ground in debt. If I had a million I'd pump as much into backing these guys as I could because what they did in the beginning came from the heart and they are still here giving. Edinbrugh whateveryournameis should be ashamed to have even asked the question. You sound like a bl**dy accountant.

[meagain]

[andrew1]

moi ?

[edinburghbeerbucket]

Sorry, andrew1, but I do not feel ashamed for raising a genuine concern and I really cannot believe the way I was attacked for voicing my opinion. I'm not going to start re-posting in this thread (save for this one) because it's entirely fruitless, but I suggest you go back and read through this thread from the beginning. I hope you will then realise that I never intended any malice, was never rude or abusive, and provided an opportunity for a genuine response from those with the knowledge. I never got it, which is entirely their privilege, and I am without recount to that privilege. Fine.

 

Finally, you'll also find that I actually support the founders making something for themselves out of this, but only on the condition that this is made transparent to everyone considering a donation. I'm not interested in what you think about that idea, because loads of other people have probably told me already.

 

As mentioned by at least one other poster, it's entirely surprising to find a forum full of apparently intelligent people vindicating someone for speaking out. Such actions promote an atmosphere of fear and hatred. This was well demonstrated by the number of PMs I got saying "I can't believe what those folk said" etc from people who didn't want to post their support for fear of similar reprisals. It's not a healthy environment for collaboration.

 

[/rant]

[andrew1]

My apologies edinbrugh. When I read this thread ( from the beginning) I thought to myself " what right has anyone got to ask these guys who have dedicated every minute of their time and efforts to help all these others and risked so much, to explain themselves"?

 

I simply cannot beleive anyone would question 'money' - (other than accountant!) or ask them to say what it costs or how donations are spent. Heavens above - who the hell cares if they bring such confidence back into peoples lives who have felt there is absolutely no hope of getting back on their feet or where the money goes? - if they went to Barbados for a month - they deserve it, buy a ferrari - they deserve it, pay for an extension - they deserve it. In fact I also get annoyed at the thought that so many may use the site and give nothing back and if the accounts were published on site the sympathy vote measured in donations would not increase either - people just are not like that. I doubt these founders actually make anything to speak of anyway, whatever they get is hard earned.

 

Yes, you show support - agreed, but I felt that was only after people questioned you.

 

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is - we are all here to get things better for ourselves and to help others if we can, me, probably you too and anything you say is adding to the wealth of opinions and experiences and knowledge and in no way do I wish to reduce that input into a nasty vindictive target practice at you or anyone else. So you have my sincere apologies for making it sound a personal attack. I just get a little peed off with people who start trying to question what others get from risk taking.

 

I run a business and I used to get the same feeling when people working for me said " I could afford " to give them more -they had no right to say that because they never took account of what I put in, it's not just about the bottom line. Please don't take it personally I value your input as much as anyone elses.

 

I'll bite my tongue in future.

[buzz]

I am inclined to agree with Edinburghbeerbucket.

 

It would be nice as a matter of courtesy to show the members where the donated money has been spent. This is not to accuse the site of any wrongdoing, far from it.

I think the site owner and members do a great job with the advice and I have benefitted from this advice.Many of my friends are members due to recommendations and some of them have also benefitted.

I have also donated to the site.

Admittedly, there must have been many members who have used the site for the advice and once they got their refund, they "disappeared". You will always get selfish people.

However, for those of us who remain loyal to the site, I feel it is wrong to be ostracised by other members for asking where the donations are spent. It could also increase donations when people see the good that the money goes to.

 

Please remember, as members we are not here to judge.

We are all in the same boat,

 

Buzz

[andrew1]

I am inclined to agree with Edinburghbeerbucket.

 

It would be nice as a matter of courtesy to show the members where the donated money has been spent. This is not to accuse the site of any wrongdoing, far from it.

I think the site owner and members do a great job with the advice and I have benefitted from this advice.Many of my friends are members due to recommendations and some of them have also benefitted.

I have also donated to the site.

Admittedly, there must have been many members who have used the site for the advice and once they got their refund, they "disappeared". You will always get selfish people.

However, for those of us who remain loyal to the site, I feel it is wrong to be ostracised by other members for asking where the donations are spent. It could also increase donations when people see the good that the money goes to.

 

Please remember, as members we are not here to judge.

We are all in the same boat,

 

Buzz

 

 

Okay, I ought to call this a day and not dig in my heals and , I agree, maybe it would be good for us all to know on some kind of posting from the mods that ' with the donations we have been able to update our server or get some new books or taken on some paid staff to help out with all the chores' fair enough I can recognise that point, but to ask them to be accountable or publish where donations are spent ? come on ! The site is free, free to speak , free to use, BF and dave trust our consciences, never ask for anything back and only suggest that if we have got something out of using the forum we consider putting something back - alot of people put a lot of time back into it ( not me by the way by comparrison with hundreds of others) others use the site and donate to say thanks - they jumped on the bus and donated something for the journey - I feel that having been on the site myself since March and listened to the many early arguments put forward for trying to support the site, anyone who has watched this grow and the dynamics behind it shouldn't and wouldn't question where the proceeds go and to even ask seems an embarrassment. What should be 'transparrent' is the work that these people put in ( if it is not noticed already), the risks that have been taken, the financial hardships suffered by the founders and their supporters and loss of a personal life they must have suffered getting the site up and running in the initial stages and the months of unpaid hours dedicated then maybe people would not have to ask where and on what the donations are spent and might just feel a little ashamed in asking. What will you say once you know? You didn't like what it was spent on? Thus opening up a whole new debate as per veryannoyed's post of 27 September above.

 

I think I'll stop posting on the thread now because I, like you all have finished my ranting. I respect all of you for your opinions - but beg to differ.

[moltonbrownqueen]

here's my opinion, fwiw!

My advice to edinburghbeerbucket is give up on this subject, and then reflect on how utterly GRATEFUL you should be to BF and Dave for setting this site up in the first place. They could've kept quiet after winning their cases, or they could've charged you for accessing the BLOODY GOOD information that accumulates, not just about banks but consumer life in general. Add to that the buddies people make and moral support we receive it's worth it's weight in gold bullion bars, and i for one would be more that happy to NEVER KNOW how my donation was spent. Personally, i would'nt mind sending equal halves of my donation straight to BF and Dave so they can put it in their back pocket!!!! I begrudge them not a penny, and i'm not interested in the slightest how they spend it.

I only read this thread because i could'nt believe ANYONE would have the gaul to actually ask the question.

MY GRATEFUL THANKS TO BF, DAVE, ALL THE MODS, SITE HELPERS, AND ANYONE ELSE WHO CONSTRUCTIVELY ADDS TO THREADS ON THIS SITE. WITHOUT YOUR TIME AND COMMITMENT, WE WOULD ALL BE POORER PEOPLE (AND I DON'T MEAN JUST FINACIALLY).

[Number6]

here's my opinion, fwiw!

My advice to edinburghbeerbucket is give up on this subject, and then reflect on how utterly GRATEFUL you should be to BF and Dave for setting this site up in the first place. They could've kept quiet after winning their cases, or they could've charged you for accessing the BLOODY GOOD information that accumulates, not just about banks but consumer life in general. Add to that the buddies people make and moral support we receive it's worth it's weight in gold bullion bars, and i for one would be more that happy to NEVER KNOW how my donation was spent. Personally, i would'nt mind sending equal halves of my donation straight to BF and Dave so they can put it in their back pocket!!!! I begrudge them not a penny, and i'm not interested in the slightest how they spend it.

I only read this thread because i could'nt believe ANYONE would have the gaul to actually ask the question.

MY GRATEFUL THANKS TO BF, DAVE, ALL THE MODS, SITE HELPERS, AND ANYONE ELSE WHO CONSTRUCTIVELY ADDS TO THREADS ON THIS SITE. WITHOUT YOUR TIME AND COMMITMENT, WE WOULD ALL BE POORER PEOPLE (AND I DON'T MEAN JUST FINACIALLY).

 

As an individual who has been helped enormously by this site - I FULLY agree with your comments. I couldn't care less if the donations were all going towards BF and Dave's retirement pad in Monaco and their pension. What business is it of anyone elses after all!

 

With my Site Helper hat on thank you for your thanks. FWIW I love contributing to this site in any way that I can. I have learned an awful lot in a short time and I'm more than willing to pass on that information to others.

 

This community can help to cure the rottenness that's endemic in this country at the moment; we can fight many of the restrictions and injustices that make life a misery for so many people! I for one am looking forward to the revolution!!!

 

Good luck to all.

 

Pete

[puppylove]

I am a newbie here, and I just feel that human nature is quick to condemn and slow to praise.

 

I am going to praise cos if it wasn't for this fantastic website I wouldn't have the guts to send off my Data Protection Act without the fantastic step by step guide in this library.

 

We don't ask lawyers or any one else what they do with the money they receive for services rendered and they charge an arm and a leg for it!! and this site its voluntary donations so its none of our business what the guys do with the money!

 

I agree with Pete I couldnt care less if our donations goes to a retirement pad In Monaco cos they deserve it and I hope they do get one!!!

[sam19677]

As an individual who has been helped enormously by this site - I FULLY agree with your comments. I couldn't care less if the donations were all going towards BF and Dave's retirement pad in Monaco and their pension. What business is it of anyone elses after all!

 

With my Site Helper hat on thank you for your thanks. FWIW I love contributing to this site in any way that I can. I have learned an awful lot in a short time and I'm more than willing to pass on that information to others.

 

This community can help to cure the rottenness that's endemic in this country at the moment; we can fight many of the restrictions and injustices that make life a misery for so many people! I for one am looking forward to the revolution!!!

 

Good luck to all.

 

Pete

 

Wonderfully said, as always Pete.

 

Sam xx

[meagain]

I am a newbie here, and I just feel that human nature is quick to condemn and slow to praise.

 

I feel that in online communities, the exact opposite is true. People are often quick to jump on the thanks bandwagon, and think twice about being critical on the basis that if they do make any comment, fair or otherwise, the zealots and fanatics descend with their flamethrowers, assuming that their target has ill intention (as we have seen on this thread, in more than one strand, might I add).

 

We don't ask lawyers or any one else what they do with the money they receive for services rendered and they charge an arm and a leg for it!!

 

I think companies have to publish accounts, so if you did ask your solicitor about their firms accounts, you would find out one way or another. For example, a quick search at Companies House on CAG's company number (aptly registered as "Reclaim The Right Ltd.") shows that accounts will be due in 2008.

 

I believe that folk have a right to know where their money goes - after all, we're big fans of fairness and transparency here. In case you hadn't noticed, our primary campaign is all about securing fairness and transparency in banking. On first glance, it would seem somewhat hypocritical to not demonstrate the same ourselves. But, there are other factors involved.

 

I'm sure people have perfectly valid reasons for asking where their money is going. Accounting, further donation, curiosity, the list is fairly long. The argument that it is none of the donors' business is patently false, however, I'm sure that Dave and BF have some other valid reasons for not revealing this information, prime amongst which is the risk of the banks using the information to try and put us out of business. I know of some pretty shady tactics which they could employ (I wouldn't put anything past them), but for obvious reasons, I won't reveal them here.

 

In summary, if someone asks in future, keep off their back. We're all in this together - there's no reason to alienate valuable members, new or otherwise. Next time anyone fails to do this, I will take it upon myself to kill a small, cute, fluffy kitten.

 

Civility costs nothing, and buys everything. Please, think of the kittens.

[katesage]

We think that the true recovery figure is in the order of £8 - £10 millions

 

Very few people even bother to say thanks.

 

However, even out of those who are decent enough to complete the survey, very few bother to contribute to us or even give as much as 5%

 

 

I would say that we have received very much less than half of 1% of the declared total recovery figure. My records show that about 540 people have made donations. The number of people who have completed the survey stands at about 2,250. Go figure.

 

 

I just wandered over here to have a nose..........and nearly fell over with shock when I saw that statistic. OK that post was made in September BUT HOW can only 540 people have donated. :o

I only hope its improved.....pray more like.

 

OK... I saw somewhere else a 'suggestion' to name donators and show how much they have given, this has apparently been rejected BUT could we not have at least a number of the total members who have donated, no names, no numbers, just how many.....because that shaming figure above will, I hope, encourage people not to slope off after reclaiming charges without giving anything.

As for the main debate about where the money goes....i for one couldn't give a stuff. No one is forced to pay anything (as the shocking number above clearly proves) when we give, we give in gratitude NOT because we have interest in how 'our' money is being spent...it wouldnt have been 'our' money at all without dave and BF.

 

I'm actually feeling quite cross at human nature right now......hmpphhhh:-x

[Deller]

Very well said Kate, now I too am feeling rather angry that others are unable to help those who helpled them in first place!!

[meagain]

OI!

Next time anyone fails to do this, I will take it upon myself to kill a small, cute, fluffy kitten.

 

 

Drop it now, or the kitten gets it.