Thompsons advise Union not to support tribunal claim

[mjabber]

My partner is taking her employers to tribunal after being dismissed. The union passed the matter to Thompsons and they have said she should withdraw the claim. We wrote back to them identifying 6 areas where the company was potentially at fault, which were in brief:

 

1. Investigation not sufficient

2. Failed to take account of previous conduct

3. Investigation not timely

4. Conclusions biased

5. Dismissal allegations a result of behaviour of manager, after reporting the company to regulator

6. Company refused to allow a solicitor to attend disciplinary or appeal

 

They have just responded again suggesting we withdraw the claim, but not explaining why our contentions are not relevant to the disciplinary process.

 

I have two questions

1. If we take this ourselves, and I believe there is a case to answer, how hard is this? Is there any support available (we dont have money to pay privately)?

2. I am aware that costs can be awarded against claimants in certain circumstances. How likely is this?

 

I am extremely disappointed with the attitude of the solicitors. If their logic were applied to all tribunal cases, especially where the employer is determined to find someone guilty of misconduct, then we wouldnt ever need tribunals. A company would never admit that one of their managers had instigated a witchhunt. Of course its not going to be easy!

[RachelMD]

1) Hard.

Requiring diligent, consistant application over a period of many months with no guarantee of success.

But far from impossible.

Help? What's wrong with us?!

Plus maybe the CAB, legal centres if you're lucky, various institutions/charities if there's an unlawful discrimination angle to your case. Plus a wealth of online/published resources.

 

Costs are awarded in a smal number of cases. This is an increasing trend, AFAIAA. A deposit might become a prerequesite, if the Cameron Junta has its way.

But unless your claim is a great big, entirely false, load of cobblers, you shouldn't have to worry. Of course, the respondant will threaten to make an application for costs from the outset. They always do. Ignore it.

 

Have you posted your situation previously? If not, why not set out what's happened and we'll take a look?

[Jach]

My eldest daughter took her former employers to tribunal, without a solicitors help, and won. Initially she had assistance from CAB but had to do all the paperwork herself. However, hers was not a complaint about dismissal, and this was quite a few years ago. My only advice is make sure if you continue and go to tribunal all your paper work is in perfect order i.e. you can access relevant points immediately if questioned about it. Her former employers got 'told off' at the tribunal because their paper work was a shambles, whereas my daughter could refer immediately to dates, hours relevant points,etc......

Good luck, I'm sure you will receive the appropriate help on here

[papasmurf1cx]

Forget the union, try to go independently via legal protection insurance, if you have it.

[mjabber]

It is quite complicated and has currently been going on for over a year. It involves some seriously damaging lies by a manager who has left, which were then supported by other staff. Perhaps what would be best would be if I drafted some sort of statement of events (like they do for the tribunal) and then ask for advice on that? When do documents usually have to be requested and exchanged?

[madari]

Hi

 

If you decide to represent yourself then you must first inform the tribunal in writing ,giving the date of when you are taking over the case [representing yourself].

 

After which the tribunal will acknowlede your application and from then on, you will be directed by the tribunal, in otherwords they will send you a time table to follow.

 

Once you take over your case you are free to ask the Et for assistance as regards the management[only] of your case.

 

But remember the ET offices are not an `advisory body.`

 

Good luck

[Lanney50]

Hi mjabber

I have had the same problem with Thompsons they dropped like a hot tattie me in my case no help and have heard similar reports of them doing the same, the unoiun also withdrew there help (no suprise there) so was left all alone then found this forum which has been a great help to say the least,I have bought a couple of excellent books from Amazon one is Naomi cunnigham tactic and precedents these have proved invaluable and guide you through step by step I have never put it down,and this has helped me this far,my ex employees also sacked me for gross miss conduct and my hearing at the Et is June ,I have had a pre hearing were I paid a deposit but I am self representing and some days are harder than others put my desire to prove the unfairly dismissed me keeps me going ,I have also sat in on Tribunal cases so know what to expect its tough but sos life,you can do it ,try the local Clac if you have one or Im sure there a vast amount of help and support on this forum good luck keep going.

[Lanney50]

Mjabber if you look underthe thread help obtainning documents for tribunal you will see I have had load and loads of support ,you can do it not easy but others have done it the Tribunal were very helpful with me because I was self representing keep going

[Bigredbus]

Hi,

 

Not only they've asked you to 'drop' your case, but they are not taking the case on? - Did I understand well?

[Atlas01]

Most union solicitors run on 50% chance rates meaing if they think you have less than that chance they won't take it on, they may advise you not to pursue as well because they are not just there to represent you (if they agree to) but also advice you, therefore by the fact they have said they don't think you will win they would also advise you not to pursue.

 

Key part is advise, they are not instructing you not to just covering their backs, they can hardly refuse to represent you and then advise you to go it alone

 

as a touch of hope, the biggest case i know of was a union member refused representation who went it alone and won. i'd treat this as an exception to the rule though.

[Bigredbus]

I agree with 'Atlas1', although you should work on your case independently and seek your own review of it to assess its merit.

[mjabber]

Well Thompsons sent another letter telling us the Union had agreed. And helpfully told us that the bundle of documents was to be agreed by 18 May. Helpful in that they hadnt previously advised us of this, and their letter was dated 20th May.

 

I understand I have to contact the tribunal to tell them we are now dealing with this ourselves and asking for an extension of time. The other side havent met this deadline either though.

 

A couple of questions:

 

1. What should be included in the bundle?

2. The matter is complicated by the fact that there is court case (arising from the managers lies). That case includes statements from the manager and deputy manager which are not, oddly, replicated in the company's own records. Probably because they are full of lies that are not backed up by any records - well actually are completely contradicted by the records. Anyway, we are not supposed to disclose these statements outside of the court case, so how do I deal with this in the tribunal. Can I merely refer to them but not be able to disclose them to the other side until after the court case is completed?

[mjabber]

Oh and if we have to ask for documents to be included in the bundle, but we are pretty sure they dont exist, then do we still ask for them? For example, the manager who suspended my partner waited a whole month after an allegation before the suspension and there are no notes anywhere about when she received the allegation, who she talked to or anything one might expect. One of the appeal matters related to the fact my partner's character was ttrashed by these people - why didnt they ask any other staff members - which they said they would, but didnt - or havent provided anything to us that suggested they did.

[madari]

Hi

 

You have stated above `Well Thompsons sent another letter telling us the union had agreed` agreed what?

 

In answer to your other questions :

 

Question number 1 -What should be included in the bundle?

 

Any documents that either party wishes to rely on as evidence

 

Question number 2 -`The matter is complicated........`

 

You need to inform the ET about the complication and see how they respond.

 

Finally whether the documents that you wish to rely on exist or not is not for you to decide, if you need them then ask for them to be disclosed and let them tell you whether they exist or not.

 

Good luck

[mjabber]

Hi

 

You have stated above `Well Thompsons sent another letter telling us the union had agreed` agreed what?

 

The Union agreed that THompsons could withdraw

[bonnygirl]

Most union solicitors run on 50% chance rates meaing if they think you have less than that chance they won't take it on, they may advise you not to pursue as well because they are not just there to represent you (if they agree to) but also advice you, therefore by the fact they have said they don't think you will win they would also advise you not to pursue.

 

Key part is advise, they are not instructing you not to just covering their backs, they can hardly refuse to represent you and then advise you to go it alone

 

as a touch of hope, the biggest case i know of was a union member refused representation who went it alone and won. i'd treat this as an exception to the rule though.

 

My dad was told by GMB union rep that their solicitors Thompsons needs to be 80% sure that they are going to win, all I can suggest is to find a solicitors that does 'no win, no fee' and see what they think of your chances of winning.

Edited May 23, 2011 by bonnygirl

[postggj]

speak to your union branch area rep

 

being a branch official i can tell you that the branch may take this on off their own backs if they consider the solicitors are wrong

 

ive done three myself and all were settled before it got to the tribunal

[bonnygirl]

My dad took it up with the branch and sent all documents to them for an opinion but after many calls to them they did not even reply to him but they keep taking his monthly subscriptions.

[postggj]

demand to speak to the branch secretary

 

what union is this

[bonnygirl]

Spoken to Union secretatry person and she referred my dad back to the same person that would not even speak to him. It is GMB.

[mjabber]

demand to speak to the branch secretary

 

what union is this

 

gmb

[Lanney50]

I was also dropped by the lovely unouin,again Thompson wouldnt take case,I have been a member of said unioun for 15 years they wont even help or advise me in my case preparation,I have tried to get some support but have been told by regional rep they cant help, unioun what good are they when you really need them,there ok taking your money thats all, they wouldnt even help me draft a shedule of loss,I have had to do it alone,so am not supprised by this post seem typical of thompsons.

[JimRoyle]

I suspect most people join unions so that they have acces to professional help should the need arise. I wonder if it would be more cost effective to take out an insurance policy like some people have included in their home ins policies.

[papasmurf1cx]

More use of this section against errant unions should be made. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/part/5/chapter/1/crossheading/trade-organisations

 

I think by definition every application for union help, denied, when a grievance has been raised and an issue of discrimination has been raised to the employer could amount to a detriment and therefore victimisation. In all cases any initial refusal of help should be subject to a complaint to the union and one should start complaining about inaction to management... as high as you can go.

 

Their outers, as usual, is to seek the legal advice as to the chances of success. This is normally on the evidence against the employer.

 

However they sometimes leave themselves open over their own actions. Another tactic they use is to delay for so long that you either run out of time to raise a ET claim or force you into taking out a claim to avoid time limits running out, which in that case they say they will not represent you because you have done it against or without advice. Either way they abandon you. in those circumstances, if you have switched on to their games you complain allege they are potentially discriminating / victimising you and put it up the management chain as far as you can get. Invoke the union grievance procedure and eventually take out a claim against the union too!!

 

I know this can be done... our union is trying to settle a ET case under these very circumstances.

[Atlas01]

Ah the generally motionless blockheads

 

If there is one thing this union excels at in my experience it's the way it's branch secs and officers do nothing other than sit on issues before just dumping them back at the start point after doing the sum total of zilch in between.

 

That said as you have had the legal advice i see very little chance in you getting the position changed, best case is your formally complain to the regional secretary who may (with enough pressure put on them) have it re-considered.

 

I've been involved with a union for 12 years (who will remain nameless ) and don't recall anyone ever getting more than that.