HSBC and liquidated company, can I claim?

[Ibsys]

Quick update, HSBC Invoice Finance has tried to telephone me regarding the SAR I sent, I dont answer the phone so they got my work email from somewhere? They said in the email "I have been trying to make contact with you recently regarding your letter to HSBC Invoice Finance (UK) Ltd" I wonder why, any ideas? I will know more later today. Do you think that they are trying to put me off and not send the SAR or they are worried I might be onto them doing something underhand? We will see

 

If the contracts signed for both companies are seperate, then you need the £10k back that the running company paid for the liquidated company. Also, the Invoice Factor may be trying a trick here. The line of any conversation would be "if you tell us what you are looking for we may be able to help...." meaning they will have more information than you want them to have. Do not talk to them, write if you have to saying you want all information as requested on the SAR

[elsinore]

I will know more later today.

 

What did you mean, ZENTRIX?

 

Ibsys is right, don't tell 'em anything.

 

Els

[ZENTRIX9]

What did you mean, ZENTRIX?

 

Ibsys is right, don't tell 'em anything.

 

Els

 

 

I meant I was waiting for his reply. i now have it ;-

 

 

I am currently working on your data Subject Access Request (under the 1998

Data Protection Act) and just have a couple of questions for you please:

 

The letter is signed by a Mr XXX. can you confirm that Mr XX XXXX

and Mr XXX in this case is the same person?

On your letter, you quote account number xxxxxx. Can you advise please

where you got this from as I can't locate it on any of our records and

obviously want to make sure that I provide you with everything that we

have.

 

 

Furthermore, in case you are not aware, the 1998 Data Protection Act only refers to individuals, not incorporated companies so anything specific for xxxxx Ltd and XXXXXX Ltd will not, unless it makes reference to Mr XXX, Mr XX XXX, or XXX, (subject to your

confirmation) be supplied as a response to your letter.

 

Therefore, if you have any specific questions that you feel our response

will not cover, then please contact me accordingly.

 

They trying to wriggle out of giving me info?

[ZENTRIX9]

Email today :-

 

As the account number XXXXXX relates to XXXX Ltd at the XXX branch, then any personal information held about yourself can only be released by HSBC Bank Plc on receipt of a separate Data Subject Access Request addressed to BLAH BLAH BLAH!

 

I have also sent a SAR request for all personal information that they hold on me to HSBC.

 

Are they trying to play tennis with me in the hope that I wont get what I want?

[elsinore]

Assuming you have been able to satisfy them concerning the names and the account number, the point they make about personal information is correct.

 

They are not obliged to give you any information that refers only to the limited companies. Such information should normally have been kept by your companies anyway and hopefully will be available when the records are returned to you by the liquidator.

 

It will be interesting to see if copies of the personal guarantees are sent with the SAR. They should be.

 

Els

[Ibsys]

Assuming you have been able to satisfy them concerning the names and the account number, the point they make about personal information is correct.

 

They are not obliged to give you any information that refers only to the limited companies. Such information should normally have been kept by your companies anyway and hopefully will be available when the records are returned to you by the liquidator.

 

It will be interesting to see if copies of the personal guarantees are sent with the SAR. They should be.

 

Els

 

Seems like a lot of evasion here. If they have nothing to defend then they should show what they have. It is the internal paperwork which may bring something up.

[ZENTRIX9]

Seems like a lot of evasion here. If they have nothing to defend then they should show what they have. It is the internal paperwork which may bring something up.

 

Hi Els, I have had all the paperwork back on Friday. I am at work at the moment but will be going home in a minute so I will bring back the paperwork and list exactly what they have sent. It does look like there are 2 seperate contracts for the 2 accounts and personal guarantees which I didnt think there were.

[ZENTRIX9]

Ok, heres a list of paperwork they have sent me in relation to my SAR.

 

Paperwork from computer stored client file for BOTH COMPANIES

Paperwork from manual stored client file for BOTH COMPANIES

Screen dumps from HSBCIF computer system "common Business Database" BOTH COMPANIES

Screen dumps from HSBCIF computer system "IFA" BOTH COMPANIES

Information taken from HSBCIF computer system "CALF" BOTH COMPANIES

Screen dumps taken from HSBCIF computer system "Ensure" BOTH COMPANIES

Information taken from HSBCIF computer system "Finch" BOTH COMPANIES

Details of telephone conversations BOTH COMPANIES

Emails from HSBCIF staff members BOTH COMPANIES

Internal HSBCIF paperwork used in new business takeover process for BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of authority to proceed for BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of bank mandate for BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of agreement for the purchase of debts BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of fixed charge on BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of floating charge on BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of guarantee and indemnity for BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of guarantee and indemnity for ME and COMPANY 1

Copy of guarantee and indemnity for ME and COMPANY 2

 

Anything I should be looking for in particular?

[Ibsys]

Ok, heres a list of paperwork they have sent me in relation to my SAR.

 

Paperwork from computer stored client file for BOTH COMPANIES

Paperwork from manual stored client file for BOTH COMPANIES

Screen dumps from HSBCIF computer system "common Business Database" BOTH COMPANIES

Screen dumps from HSBCIF computer system "IFA" BOTH COMPANIES

Information taken from HSBCIF computer system "CALF" BOTH COMPANIES

Screen dumps taken from HSBCIF computer system "Ensure" BOTH COMPANIES

Information taken from HSBCIF computer system "Finch" BOTH COMPANIES

Details of telephone conversations BOTH COMPANIES

Emails from HSBCIF staff members BOTH COMPANIES

Internal HSBCIF paperwork used in new business takeover process for BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of authority to proceed for BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of bank mandate for BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of agreement for the purchase of debts BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of fixed charge on BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of floating charge on BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of guarantee and indemnity for BOTH COMPANIES

Copy of guarantee and indemnity for ME and COMPANY 1

Copy of guarantee and indemnity for ME and COMPANY 2

 

Anything I should be looking for in particular?

 

I see you have most things where you say are for "BOTH" companies but are the documents seperately for BOTH compainies or are the documents mentioning both companies one the same documents. First thing I would be doing is seeing if you can seperate the companies, ie two contracts, two guarantees, two sets of floating charge, dis associate one company lawfully from the other. So, for example, discharging one company paying £10,000 on behalf of the other, proving there is no liability. If you can do that, as the HSBC / Factor has that money, then I would look at getting it returned.

[ZENTRIX9]

I see you have most things where you say are for "BOTH" companies but are the documents seperately for BOTH compainies or are the documents mentioning both companies one the same documents. First thing I would be doing is seeing if you can seperate the companies, ie two contracts, two guarantees, two sets of floating charge, dis associate one company lawfully from the other. So, for example, discharging one company paying £10,000 on behalf of the other, proving there is no liability. If you can do that, as the HSBC / Factor has that money, then I would look at getting it returned.

 

Hi Ibsys, all documentation is for each seperate company. The only one that mentions the two companies is the copy of guarantee and indemnity for the both companies.

As I have signed a personal guarantee, if I do get them to pay me back would they then come to me personally for the money?

I think they may have stitched me up good and proper!

[Ibsys]

Hi Ibsys, all documentation is for each seperate company. The only one that mentions the two companies is the copy of guarantee and indemnity for the both companies.

As I have signed a personal guarantee, if I do get them to pay me back would they then come to me personally for the money?

I think they may have stitched me up good and proper!

 

Seems irregular the gurantee is signed on one document for two seperate entities. This seems like mis selling of the factor service and the guarantee done in a way that if one business goes down it seriously impeads the other. Try looking at Article 6 just in case it applies. It makes contracts not legally binding where a term in a pre written contract gives an unfair balance to one party to the detriment of the other. Factors should release funds within 24 hours of invoice, to an arranged degree and so if the factor was with holding funds in a way not prearranged or under a term of contract giving an unfair balance then it may contravene Article 6. A barrister told me a contract is not lawfully binding unless it fairly protects both parties. This does not seen that it has.

[ZENTRIX9]

One other thing.

The first company went into liquidation, the second had all monies collected frozen by HSBC Invoice Finance until I agreed to pay them the £10k on the ledger that was short on the company in liquidation and up the personal guarantee from £15k to £30k! I didnt do it, I was blackmailed into doing a deal where I paid them from the monies they had collected and £1000 to release me from the contract early.

I had to do this to continue trading otherwise we had no cashflow. Then 4 months down the road our supplier, who had also supplied the liquidated company with materials stopped supplying us and wanted paying for the loss from the other company. Up to this point we had paid on delivery for any goods we had ordered with the company still trading. As the product we were buying was specific to our supplier we couldnt source goods elsewhere so I stopped trading. This second company wasnt liquidated but just left alone, eventually companies house dissolved the company.

My question is this. Can I still claim for the payment company 2 made to clear the debt with the liquidated company as I have no bank account in the businesses name anymore which would make paying it back difficult, would they be able to pay me personally?

[ZENTRIX9]

Seems irregular the gurantee is signed on one document for two seperate entities. This seems like mis selling of the factor service and the guarantee done in a way that if one business goes down it seriously impeads the other. Try looking at Article 6 just in case it applies. It makes contracts not legally binding where a term in a pre written contract gives an unfair balance to one party to the detriment of the other. Factors should release funds within 24 hours of invoice, to an arranged degree and so if the factor was with holding funds in a way not prearranged or under a term of contract giving an unfair balance then it may contravene Article 6. A barrister told me a contract is not lawfully binding unless it fairly protects both parties. This does not seen that it has.

 

Hi Ibsys, looking at the guarantees it looks like they are covering themselves so if one company gets in trouble they can bleed the other so they dont lose out. They also have seperate personal guarantees from myself each for £15k which I didnt realise I had signed. There was so much paperwork and items to sign I cant remember what I signed for now.

[ZENTRIX9]

Anything that I should be looking for in the paperwork I have received?

[ZENTRIX9]

Can anyone answer a question for me.

 

I have found a letter from HSBC telling me that the personal guarantee is at the branch waiting for me to sign. I am pretty certain that it was signed on the premises and witnessed by an employee of HSBC. Shouldnt it have been witnessed by an indipendant person? i.e. not an employee of HSBC? I have another document I had to sign for HSBC invoice finance and it clearly stated on that paperwork that it shouldnt be an employee of HSBC.

Does this need looking into?

[Ibsys]

One other thing.

The first company went into liquidation, the second had all monies collected frozen by HSBC Invoice Finance until I agreed to pay them the £10k on the ledger that was short on the company in liquidation and up the personal guarantee from £15k to £30k! I didnt do it, I was blackmailed into doing a deal where I paid them from the monies they had collected and £1000 to release me from the contract early.

I had to do this to continue trading otherwise we had no cashflow. Then 4 months down the road our supplier, who had also supplied the liquidated company with materials stopped supplying us and wanted paying for the loss from the other company. Up to this point we had paid on delivery for any goods we had ordered with the company still trading. As the product we were buying was specific to our supplier we couldnt source goods elsewhere so I stopped trading. This second company wasnt liquidated but just left alone, eventually companies house dissolved the company.

My question is this. Can I still claim for the payment company 2 made to clear the debt with the liquidated company as I have no bank account in the businesses name anymore which would make paying it back difficult, would they be able to pay me personally?

 

If there are seperate contracts as it seems there is, then one company is not liable for the debts of the other. How much did you owe for materials to your supplier. If it was less than £10,000 and this would clear your supply line problem then if the second company goes down it will be because of this. If there are two seperate guarantees then you could demand return of that £10,000 on the basis of the two seperate contracts. If it was actually returned and you ask would HSBC persue you for the guarantee, from experience, this would take years for them to do it and it would give you a very good lever.I see you have found a letter saying there is a gruarantee form wants signing,DO NOT SIGN THIS if it is not already signed. Also be aware that banks do forge signatures. If you sing anything, do something to your signature, eg, put a line through it so you know if you see it again you know the signature has been lifted.Whilst the matter is in dispute HSBC cannot pass it on to a third party.

[ZENTRIX9]

Thanks Ibsys, no the guarantee letter I found was an old one which we did sign.

What I am trying to determine at the moment is :-

 

1. Are the contracts legal because they have linked one company to the other to cover the debts.

2. Are the personal guarantees valid if they have made one company pay the debts from the other company.

 

 

Looking at the HSBCIF Agreement for the purchase of debts I see that their solicitors signed the paperwork as a Deed on the 8th and we signed the paperwork "signed and delivered as a Deed" on 15th. Is that ok or should they have signed it as a Deed after we signed?

[ZENTRIX9]

Do have a link to "Article 6" so I can read it? I dont know what to look for.

[ZENTRIX9]

This is very interesting. The bank took £10k from my moms personal account as she signed a personal guarantee for the overdraft. They didnt ask they sent her a letter she received on the Saturday saying they would be taking it on Monday, they actually took it the friday! The day before she got the letter. Didnt even give her a chance to discuss paying the amount. So if this is correct is she able to claim back all the charges on the account plus interest? The company has been liquidated around 6 months now. Does anyone know how to get copies of statements for the liquidated account, I dont think a SAR will get them as its not personal.

 

I got it wrong!!! It was 20K!!!!

Edited June 15, 2011 by ZENTRIX9

[andrew1]

Hi, You won't get statements via SAR, but you may ask the liquidator. He'll want to know why you want them and he'll probably be looking for any returns so be careful, I know what they are like. A company is deemed to have kept the records for 6 yrs and if you asked the bank they'll charge you for each and every statement you ask for. But try the liquidator as they would have all the records.

 

I never followed up on the business claims for Ltd companies TBH, I had far too many other issues to deal with which were more straight forward, but there are a few I wouldn't mind following up soon. One or two people on here have had some successes.

 

It is my personal view that if a Director put money in or a guarantor has had to pay off a balance then that balance needs to be correct, not a stumped up charge concocted by the bank, but bank charges when we started this thread was in the sights as were the consumer bank charges on personal accounts, but things have moved on since then.

 

Might I suggest that if you didn't want to go via the liquidator, your Mother asks the bank to substantiate the figure they asked her to repay by providing a complete breakdown of the balance they asked for / took ? That way she might not have to go to the liquidator. A balance at the end of trading is not sufficient evidence of what this 10k represented as they could have taken 20k for all she'd know about it. Ask they can only say No, but if it were me I'd go that route first.

 

 

LastLaugh, I see you still visit the forum occassionally, could you give an update of what happened to yours?

[ZENTRIX9]

Thanks for that Andrew, the difficulty I have is that I have been told by the liquidators that they have destroyed all the records. The other ways I have thought of getting a figure for the bank charges is to see if they are itemised on the Sage records I still have on the computer or ask the accountant, they should be on the years accounts. Once I have a figure I can contact the bank. If the sum is more than the 10k they took from the account what happens to the surplus? does she keep it?

[ZENTRIX9]

JACKPOT!!!!

I have itemised bank details on SAGE back to 1998!

On one of the last statements there are 2 charges totaling just shy of £1300 for interest and bank charges! B******S!

How far back can I go? and what exactly can I claim for?

I want our £20k back!

[ZENTRIX9]

Are directors loans included on what you can claim against?

[andrew1]

Wo! Well done. That was quick....I was a bit surprised to hear the liquidator has destroyed the accounts. This company liquidated just over 6 months ago you said? These have to be stored for 6 yrs then destroyed. Someone's pulling a flanker here.

 

Anyway, you have the evidence which is a start. You can go back as long as you like, it is from the date you find out about the offence/error/mistake, not as is sometimes thought from 6yrs back from now, so I'd work back from the last transactions as what you are trying to establish is whether this 10k is made up of items which are reclaimable.

 

Take a look at elsinore threads. That was against a bank for Ltd company charges.

 

Then you can look at the business loans and exactly what they were for etc. Many of these things are not set in concrete as circumstances surrounding the business activities can dictate exactly where your cliams may be focussed.

 

I have a friend who is paying off a £40k Directors guarantee just now which was a single person business, 1 director/sole proprietor - it irks me to think he's having to do that when he pumped so much money in to the business through personal loans, extended overdrafts and so on, the business failed and still he has this 40k to address. There is a way out, I just have to find the time to find it for him.

 

We can keep this thread going and hopefully we can sort these things out. Keep posting yours on here though as it'll keep the momentum going.

[ZENTRIX9]

Hi Andrew, looking on the computer now at the charges.

Lots of "Policy admin charges" £9.99

The Directors loans were to top up the account to keep it out of the overdraft but looking at the charges I feel we wouldnt have had to do this if the charges werent there.

The money they took from my mom was £20k not £10k, we guaranteed £10k each and they took it from her account before even asking me for my half.

Edited June 15, 2011 by ZENTRIX9