false details to train inspector

[Panic2011]

Hi everybody,

 

I have spent the past four days going over all the older posts concerning similar problems and have found them to be a wealth of information and support. I have a problem with first capital connect and their likely hood to prosecute for fare evasion and I'm am going around the bend! I have not yet found any posts with my particular set of circumstances, so any help and advice would be fantastic.

 

So I'll try and make this as concise as possible; last Friday morning I boarded the train at my local station and it was busy as usual, the doors opened and I stepped on and the first class section was just to my left. I didn't actively seek out this section it just happened to be there. I went in with three other people and sat down in one of the available seats. Before I had even looked at my paper and I don't think the train had even left the station an inspector came in and checked my ticket and the three other people who had done exactly as I had.

 

I didn't have a valid ticket for first class (just a travel card) and should have paid the penalty fare when requested to do so by the inspector. I fully admit I was in the wrong and looking back now I can't believe I have been such an idiot, but it gets worse.

 

One of the four paid the penalty fare straight away and I decided to try and argue my case with the other three, we all got off at the next stop with the inspector. The other couple paid their penalty fare after a few minutes arguing and left. Which is exactly what I should have done.

 

Again the inspector asked me if I was willing to pay the penalty fare, I replied no (I will give reasons later) he then asked me my name and address and I supplied my old address. I now know that this was the worst possible thing I could have done and have been kicking myself for the past week for being so stupid. The inspector made his phone call to verify the details I gave and when he started to ask more questions about what flat number etc I told him I lied to him so he hung up his call. I apologised and offered to then pay the penalty fare but he told me I had my chance and a penalty fare was now not an option.

 

I then supplied my correct details and he interviewed me under caution (all done correctly to the best of my recollection) and told me to expect a letter in the post detailing was action would be taken. I apologised again and he left.

 

I am now petrified, I can't sleep and am so worried that I will get a criminal record that has the potential to destroy a career that I have worked so hard for as it requires extensive travel to the states. I can't believe that one moment of complete and utter madness on my part could cause so much trouble.

 

The reason I initially refused to pay, and was so annoyed was because I had just paid FCC £34.50 for an overdue penalty fare two days before. I know this looks really bad for me but I promise you I am not an habitual fare evader, I am an habitual travel card forgetter!

 

I got to the barriers at my destination station and realised that I didn't have my travel card. I spoke to a lady at the gate and she took down my details and charged me £5.50 to cover a single from where I came from and was very sympathetic. I didn't realise at the time that I was to pay the balance of £14.50 within a set time frame. A month or two later I returned from holidays and found a reminder to pay the outstanding £14.50 from this incident. As I had been away I now only had a week left to pay I tried the phone line to pay the remaining balance and got no answer and then left it a few days. I then tried the number again about 10 times over two days and each time there was no answer and even got a recorded message saying that due to heavy call volume they were no longer receiving calls. I eventually got through a day after the deadline and was obviously pretty annoyed at having to pay an additional admin fee for failing to pay on time. All this happened two days before the first class incident so I hope it goes some way to show my mentality on the day in question. I know it is not a defence to anything and everything I have done it completely my own fault.

 

I have received two other penalty fares over the past 5 or years for forgetting my travel card. I successfully appealed one but it took about 5 letters and much more than £20 pounds worth of time and effort. So I chose not to try and appeal either of the others even though each time I had a travel card for the dates in question.

 

Having read pretty much all the other posts on the issue I now know to wait to hear from the company and write a reply stating how incredibly sorry I am and offer to pay compensation and all admin costs and hope they settle out of court. What I was wondering was with these set of circumstances, no first class ticket, initially refusing to pay the penalty fare, lying and the previous penalty fare notices against me does anyone think I have a hope in hell of not ending up with a criminal conviction?

 

I have had a valid travel card for all zones travelled (admittedly not always on me) for five years. Will that help?

 

I have not yet heard from the company, would anyone recommend pre-emptive letter?

 

On the offering to pay a settlement front, would a very large amount (££££) be more likely to be accepted or would be construed as been arrogant and trying to buy your way out of trouble?

 

In my response letter should I try and mitigate the previous penalty fares notices at this stage as I can’t claim this is my first offence? Or not talk about them? I obviously want to keep it factual, short, apologetic and not rambling.

 

Does anyone know if I get convicted on the most serious charge (dishonesty, fraud) will that stop me travelling to the states?

 

I am so worried I can’t sleep or concentrate at work and am going crazy thinking about losing my job. I am usually such a happy go lucky kind of fella and would describe myself as of good character and have never got in any trouble like this before.

Any other advise?

 

Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to read this and I'm sorry it's so long and rambling.

[citizenB]

Oops.. will try and find some help for you.

[rebel11]

Hi panic

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The guys will advise as soon as they are available.

 

It's happened, all you can do is put your case forward, best you can, Worrying won't help.

[dx100uk]

i would not unduly worry about this

 

just send the grovelling letter as usual and offer to pay all costs.

 

you will not get a criminal record.

 

dx

[Stigy]

As you have said, when they write to you, write back and apologise etc, offering to pay all reasonable costs in order to stay out of court. They don't have to accept, but you really have nothing to lose here in offering! You will get a criminal rercord if you go to court and are found guilty, which will entail a fine, all costs and compensation (the cost of the fare avoided, in your case the single 1st class fare). Your refusal to pay a Penalty Fare I'm assuming was a refusal to pay up-front? That being so, there's no obligation for you to do so, as long as you pay withing 21-days. What would have put the Inspector's back up would be if you point blank refused to accept it, which I'm sure you didn't do, as he would have cancelled it long before you managed to give false details!

 

Tell FCC that this is the first time you've had this sort of trouble, but I'd indicate that although you've had a few Penalty Fares before, you've been travelling everyday for many years, which would explain maybe the odd one or two (Don't forget, FCC will have access to your Penalty Fare record etc, so honesty is best policy!). Chances are, a conviction for a simple Byelaw offence wouldn't make much difference to your employment status (Byelaw 19.1 if they used it in this case). The problem is, by supplying false details, you initially indicated that you were trying to avoid further contact with FCC, and I'd imagine this was bottomed out under questioning. That being the case, the charge for the false details could be made under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, which is a recordable offence, recordable on the PNC if convicted, and ultimately more serious than a Byelaw offence.

 

I wouldn't panic at this stage, although easy for me to say, you realy can't do anything until you receive a letter from FCC!

[Wriggler7]

Captain Mannering! Please don't panic. Church bells ringing do not mean that nuns will drop from the sky disguised as German soldiers and bayonet babies in their prams.

 

The worst outcome of a 'fare + false details' matter on a railway is likely to be a fine, possibly with a criminal record entry. In terms of destroying your life, worry, but only a little bit. Few of us have a totally unblemished record, and most employers will accept the odd offence, as long as it is openly disclosed to an employer. I doubt if the US of A will stop you wisiting them because of it either. Plenty of their guys go to exotic countries and cheerfully kill people, and still get to travel to yet more exotic countries.

[SRPO]

i would not unduly worry about this

 

just send the grovelling letter as usual and offer to pay all costs.

 

you will not get a criminal record.

 

dx

 

 

If they dont prosecute you.

[Wriggler7]

Other than that, I pretty much concur with what Stigy has said. Wait and see what the postman brings, respond, in fairly apologetic terms, if they ask for money, I recommend paying.

[Wriggler7]

An issue for all 'readers' to contemplate:

 

My local line has a working practice. More than two penalty fares and they will consider prosecution. Second time that they 'consider' prosecution, they will prosecute. My fault, but their people know all about evidence of 'bad character', and will happily lay out those previous bits of forgetfullness for the Magistrates to see, and equally cheerfully explain that preparing those reports cost them time and money, so would the Court please tell the passenger to pay the expenses for telling the world about his past.

 

I have said it before, there is a chance that I will say it again:

 

Don't get on a train at a station with ticket facilities without the correct ticket. If you get caught once, learn from the experience.

 

If a chap looks like C Chaplin, wears a uniform of a railway and asks for a ticket, do not, under any circumstances, liken him to Herr Shicklegruber, or even mention Austrian water colour painters. It has never yet helped 'the defence'.

 

I know a few ticket inspectors, I actually do know one or two who would have been sacked from Belsen for being too cruel, but there are proper channels for making complaints about them, and when you are found wanting in the fare paying department, it is you who will be 'judged', not them. Well, not entirely them. Interestingly, the last complaint I was asked to use as 'ammunition' in such an instance was about one of the true gentlemen on the railway. On reading the report, and seeing the name of the witness, I was quite strong in suggesting that such a tack would fail miserably.

 

Before 'the gang' lynch me, most of the Inspectors I know are very decent people, and are slow to chide and swift to bless.

[Panic2011]

Hi again,

 

And thanks for all the comments and advice. *Wriggler, the RPO officer I dealt with was one of the the good ones. He was polite, professional and just looked like a genuine nice guy. I do feel extremely guilty for lying to him. He was just doing his job.

 

 

Just got a few more quick questions:

 

 

1) should I expect several charges against me, having no ticket, intend to avoid the fare and the most serious of fraud or to they tend to go for one charge?

 

2) in terms of an offer to settle out of court what sort of amounts would you recommend? Anybody had a similar case settled?

 

3) anybody fancy putting a percentage chance on this not ending up with a criminal conviction?

 

I want to try and draft my letter, or at least the bulk of it, before I receive a letter from FCC as this will enable me to get a quick and well though out response.

 

Any other advice to put in this letter?

 

Thanks again to everybody, I really appreciate total strangers taking time to help somebody they have never met before I hope I get the chance to return the favour(s) sometime. I'll keep posting with any updates

[Stigy]

Just got a few more quick questions:

 

 

1) should I expect several charges against me, having no ticket, intend to avoid the fare and the most serious of fraud or to they tend to go for one charge?

 

2) in terms of an offer to settle out of court what sort of amounts would you recommend? Anybody had a similar case settled?

 

3) anybody fancy putting a percentage chance on this not ending up with a criminal conviction?

 

I want to try and draft my letter, or at least the bulk of it, before I receive a letter from FCC as this will enable me to get a quick and well though out response.

 

Any other advice to put in this letter?

 

Thanks again to everybody, I really appreciate total strangers taking time to help somebody they have never met before I hope I get the chance to return the favour(s) sometime. I'll keep posting with any updates

1. They can go with more than one charge if they so desire.

 

2. Offer reasonable admin costs, which usually amount to between £100 and £200...That could be alot different with FCC, as I'm not familiar with them at all.

 

3. No...

[Wriggler7]

Stigy is quite right to say 'no' to Q3.

 

Not at all predictable. However, there are 'percentages' that can be looked at, I have badgered my local folk about these issues, and they have given me some statistics.

 

About 70% of people found with 'minor' ticket irregularities will get a penalty fare notice, the remainder will be 'reported'.

 

Of those reported, about 33% are 'settled'. They would not (for obvious reasons) tell me a proportion of reports that are 'poorly written' and go 'in the bin', but there are some. A fairly large proportion end up in Court.

I got a little confused, because some of the penalty fares find their way to Court as well, and I failed to understand all of the 'breakdown' that I was given.

 

What I wanted to know, and I think so do you, is 'will this case go to Court'?

 

It will depend on too many factors to make a prediction. Most end up in Court because the passenger simply did not respond to any correspondence. Many end up prosecuted because the passenger was rude and abusive at the same time as 'bunking a fare'. Some are there because the passenger is well known to the prosecution team. Some are because the nature of the offence is one that the Company managers are eager to 'stamp out'. There are even some that end up in Court simply because the prosecutor wanted 40 cases listed, he had 39 that really deserved it, and there was one that landed on his desk at the right time to join the list.

 

Some fail to be prosecuted because the Inspector made a mistake in the report.

 

Long and short of it is 'wait and see'.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, Wriggler7, Stigy & SRPO have all pretty well said all that can be said at this stage

 

FCC do have a fairly robust policy in respect of prosecuting fare evasion cases. Your history of penalty fares isn't good by the sound of things although we all know how easy it is to be forgetful on occasion and if you can show evidence of a continuous record of holding standard class travelcard seasons over such a long time so much the better.

 

The really serious point, as you well know, is the fact that you initially gave a false address. In so doing you showed evidence of an intention to avoid further contact with the company and in stopping the inspector to tell him you had lied, you made it relatively easy for the TOC to proceed with that charge.

 

Wait until you get the verification letter from FCC and then respond, expressing sincere remorse and a plea to be allowed to pay the company's full costs and any fare due to settle the matter without recourse to Court action. You'll find several template letters that I have suggested on other threads if you need any help, but from reading your OP I am certain you'll know what is important. It is essential to include an undertaking not to travel without the correct ticket in future.

 

There is no guarantee that they will accept your request and they are not legally obliged to do so, but they will consider it.

 

It is clear that Wriggler7 has a good understanding of how the various TOCs prosecution process works and his description of why some cases make the list and some don't is spot-on.

 

Good luck.

[Wriggler7]

When the choice at Court is between chatting with the strange but intelectual railway prosecutor, or the 'troglodyte defendants', and with the only other choice being to read 2 year old copies of 'Womens weekly', I am afraid there just is no choice.

 

I am often fascinated by the volume of work, and the rapidity of 'proving cases' that railway prosecutors handle, when compared with the 'three fishing rod' cases and the education department charges that I sometimes listen to.

 

I may also have some 'interest' in railways from a sad anorak tendency, which has never extended as far as getting exited about the volume of 'tree' that needs a licence if a landowner want to chop it down, or the nature of 'wet gravel' when compared with 'dry gravel' in a VOSA brought 'overweight case.'

[Panic2011]

Hi guys,

 

Thanks again for all the advise, got letter through the other day asking formy version of events. I have now had a go at a first draft of a response and would very much welcome any feedback and comments.

 

Thanks in advance, I really do appreciate it.

 

Dear

 

I am writhing to confirm my version of events on the date xxxxx

 

I boarded the train at xxx at xxxxx station and went straight into a first class section. A RPO followed me in and asked to see my ticket. I only had a standard class travel card and therefore my ticket was not valid for the section of the train that I was in.

 

The RPO started to issued me with a penalty fare notice. I wanted to discuss this more and offered to get off at the next station, he then dealt with a few other passengers in the same boat as I and we got off at xxxxxx station.

 

I initially refused to pay the penalty fare notice as in mind mind I already had paid for a ticket for my journey. I now know that I was entirely in the wrong and the RPO was operating within the rules when he initiated a penalty fare notice. I am extremely sorry for this and realise that fare evasion costs the industry 400 millions pounds a year.

 

The RPO then asked for my name and address and I panicked due to my fear of a criminal conviction and gave him my old address. He then tried to verify this address by making a phone call and asked a few questions. I then gave him my current address and apologised and offered to pay the penalty fare.

 

I know that I was extremely foolish and am very remorseful for not having a valid ticket and for providing false information to the RPO. I have never been in this kind of trouble before and am extremely worried as to the effect a criminal conviction would have on a career I have worked so hard for. I have in the past been issued with a few penalty fare notices in the five years I have lived in london but assure you that I have had a valid travel card just not always on me.

 

I would be extremely grateful if you consider an out of court settlement in this case, allowing me to pay the first class fare from xxxx to xxxx and offer compensation of £150 pounds to cover all of your incurred costs to date.

 

I promise never to travel without a valid ticket on my person ever again.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Xxxxxx

 

Oyster card number: xxxxxx

Photo card number: *xxxxxx

[SRPO]

IF, you walked into the 1st class section followed by an inspector he should have told you to move, the likely byelaw 19 charge they will use requires you to 'Remain' in a carriage reserved for the use of a specified ticket holder (im not sure of the exact wording) but the issue is to 'Remain'.

If you have not committed an offence (or reasonably be suspected of committing one) then he cannot lawfully require you to provide a name & address.

IF, they go with the Regulation of Railways Act then, in a nutshell, they will have to prove Intent, not easy in this scenario even with the false details. IMHO.

[RPI]

I thought the wording in the byelaws was to "occupy"? and that the "remain" wording was in the refusal to quit carriage part of the RRA 1889? I'll have to have a look!

[RPI]

You were right SRPO,

 

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

But the grey area is that is says about remaining in such a place where a notice indicates, so once a person enters first class where there is a notice does that class as remaining there?

 

[Panic2011]

Thanks for your reply SRPO, perhaps I should make clear the timings so as not to try and mislead anyone. I did just walk straight on to the first class section but had sat down in a seat before the RPO officer asked to see my ticket so in that sense it could be argued that I did intend to remain. I don't think that the train had left the station though and as I said earlier there were several others who had done exactly ad I did. All of this to the best of my recollection happened within 10-15 seconds of boarding the train. I did think it initially harsh that the RPO did not just ask us to move out of the first class section, but that is neither here nor there the fact of the matter is I was sat in a first class section without a first class ticket. I don't really want to argue and besides the false address is by far the most serious aspect of this unhappy escapade. Thanks again SRPO it is an interesting angle I hadn't considered.

[Stigy]

IF, you walked into the 1st class section followed by an inspector he should have told you to move, the likely byelaw 19 charge they will use requires you to 'Remain' in a carriage reserved for the use of a specified ticket holder (im not sure of the exact wording) but the issue is to 'Remain'.

If you have not committed an offence (or reasonably be suspected of committing one) then he cannot lawfully require you to provide a name & address.

IF, they go with the Regulation of Railways Act then, in a nutshell, they will have to prove Intent, not easy in this scenario even with the false details. IMHO.

As I understand it, the wording "remain" is so as to differentiate between a passenger simply walking through the compartment in order to reach standard class or similar situation. As soon as somebody goes in to first class and stays there, as long as signage is in place, they'd be committing an offence.

 

I don't believe an authorised person has to have a passenger refuse to leave in order to report an offence.

[SRPO]

Thats why I put 'IF' the OP was followed into the 1st class section.

As soon as the person enters & doesnt immediately leave the offence is complete, refusal to quit is a separate offence.

 

The problem you have is that Penalty Fares cannot be imposed later & must be issued by an Authorised Collector at the time.

Your only option now is an out of court settlement.

[Stigy]

Thats why I put 'IF' the OP was followed into the 1st class section.

As soon as the person enters & doesnt immediately leave the offence is complete, refusal to quit is a separate offence.

 

The problem you have is that Penalty Fares cannot be imposed later & must be issued by an Authorised Collector at the time.

Your only option now is an out of court settlement.

I must have misinterpreted what you meant...

 

IF, you walked into the 1st class section followed by an inspector he should have told you to move

I took that as meaning the Inspector should have asked the OP to leave the section, even if they were clearly there to stay. To be honest, for the RPI to ask for the ticket, one would usually be clearly 'there to stay' anyway I'd have thought. If the person was just walking through the section to reach standard class, the RPI would have no reason to ask him to leave/move.

[SRPO]

Stigy, you are talking about intent to stay, the legislation is 'to remain'.

You would be looking at getting the passenger to admit under caution his intent to avoid the 1st class fare, which I suggest, would be very improbable.

[Stigy]

Stigy, you are talking about intent to stay, the legislation is 'to remain'.

You would be looking at getting the passenger to admit under caution his intent to avoid the 1st class fare, which I suggest, would be very improbable.

No, I'm talking about somebody being in there, and not just passing through, although I'd imagine getting intent wouldn't be as unlikely as you'd imagine in a lot of cases! I was talking about the fact that you don't have to be asked to leave and refuse, in order to be in breach of 19.1. Sorry, I thought we had bottomed that one out.

[SwiftJr]

Captain Mannering! Please don't panic. Church bells ringing do not mean that nuns will drop from the sky disguised as German soldiers and bayonet babies in their prams.

 

The worst outcome of a 'fare + false details' matter on a railway is likely to be a fine, possibly with a criminal record entry. In terms of destroying your life, worry, but only a little bit. Few of us have a totally unblemished record, and most employers will accept the odd offence, as long as it is openly disclosed to an employer. I doubt if the US of A will stop you wisiting them because of it either. Plenty of their guys go to exotic countries and cheerfully kill people, and still get to travel to yet more exotic countries.

 

With regards to the USA - they will do a CRB check, although only 'Criminal Convictions' will come up in their search. At most, they may detain you on entry (as due to the Data Protection Act, the UK will tell them you have a Criminal Record, and a Serious Offence) and then contact the UK to confirm in detail what those offences are. Its unlikely they will refuse entry. I have a DUI from 3 years ago, and in the USA it comes up as a Serious Criminal Conviction (DUI goes in the same part of your criminal record as murder, ABH, GBH, possession of firearms etc). 1 in 4 visits to the US results in a 2 hour wait while they contact the UK to confirm im not a murderer etc, then I'm happily on my way.

 

Hope that helps a little to comfort your travel concerns.