East Midlands Trains Prosecution Letter

[EMTVictim]

Hi, recently I travelled without a ticket. Usual thing, late, busy ticket office, all my fault.

 

The train company trying to prosecute is NOT the company on whose train I travelled.

 

The offence is byelaw 18 (1) "In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel."

 

Pretty clear cut. As it stands I'm guilty of that one.

 

However, the Cross Country (the service I travelled on) Passenger's Charter says "You must hold a valid ticket before you travel. If you board one of our trains without a ticket you will be charged the full single fare or full return fare unless the ticket office at the station where you boarded the train is closed or there is no working ticket machine available (in which case you must buy one from our on board staff)."

 

That appears to be a written agreement with them, that if I board a train without a ticket, the punishment will to be sold a ticket at the full rate. They do not have a penalty fare arrangement.

 

However, they failed to honour that agreement, and nobody came down the train to sell me a ticket. I could see no guard on the train. This is now a regular occurrence on that service. Therefore I was left at an East Midlands Train station, with no valid ticket for the journey I had just made. Figuring that I should buy one at the first available chance after beginning the journey, I proceeded to the barrier and was prevented from buying a ticket. I even started my conversation with "excuse me, can I buy a ticket?" Instead, details taken, caution given.

 

I even asked specific questions from the revenue protection officer (who identified himself as such) like "do I have to pay the fare" and he said I didn't. Now they are asking for the £3.60 plus costs of £85. Now if I didn't have to pay the fare, why are they asking for it now? Did he trick me into leaving the station without having paid the full amount? (I bought the return portion of the trip from the girl behind him, meaning I'd left 20p unpaid).

 

His written statement includes a section for amount offered/paid and he has written NIL in this space. I don't believe that is legal for him to say that, as I clearly was offering to pay. By writing NIL he has stated that I did not offer to pay. Also, all mentions of me offering to pay are absent from his written statement.

 

Which brings me to the offence under byelaw 18 (1). This seems to have a third part.

 

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

 

The part I'm interested in is (ii), or maybe (iii). The Cross Country Passengers Charter is a notice of sorts, so that appears to cover (ii). I assume a Cross Country employee is responsible for the Passengers Charter, so maybe that covers (iii) as well. After all, it doesn't say how permission is to be obtained. I assume written permission made in general to all passengers a few years ago is equally valid as written and verbal at the moment before I boarded that exact train.

 

The two documents appear to disagree on whether it is a crime. If the passenger's charter doesn't count under section 18(3), then I don't see how it is legal to offer that charter. If the charter is telling me that the only punishment they enforce for breaking byelaw 18(1) is they sell me a ticket, why am I now facing action? Surely if a train company agrees to something, another one with whom I didn't travel cannot override that agreement?

 

I'm hoping for some sort of guidance here. I'm not the sort of person to roll over and be shafted by a train company, but I also don't want to begin expensive court proceedings, only to be told in some obscure law somewhere that the train company is always right and I have to pay even more.

 

I'm happy to admit I should've bought a ticket before travel, however if it wasn't for the passengers charter agreement, I never would have boarded without one.

 

So what do I do here?

[Wriggler7]

Basically, unless there is something I have missed, is you either pay as requested by East Midlands trains, or you will be sent a summons, and end up paying more at a Magistrates Court.

 

Railways have various reciprocal arrangements, it does not matter who's train you were on, you boarded without a ticket, it looks to me as if you have committed the offence.

[SRPO]

For any accurate opinion I think we need to know the embarkation station.

[Stigy]

I even asked specific questions from the revenue protection officer (who identified himself as such) like "do I have to pay the fare" and he said I didn't. Now they are asking for the £3.60 plus costs of £85. Now if I didn't have to pay the fare, why are they asking for it now? Did he trick me into leaving the station without having paid the full amount? (I bought the return portion of the trip from the girl behind him, meaning I'd left 20p unpaid).

The 'Offered/Paid' section of the statement (MG11), should have been selected as one or the other. Assuming it was a typed statement, usually the 'paid' part is selected using a scroll down box, which would actually be accurate, as you didn't pay anything. If however at the end of the statement the RPI has said that no offer of payment was made, in your case this would be inaccurate.

 

Whether you paid at a later date is irrelevant, as the offence as it were, had already been committed once you boarded the train without a ticket. As far as EMT are concerned the fare has yet to be paid, hence why they are asking for it now. You have to pay it sooner or later I'm afraid. Just because a Penalty Fare is not an option, doesn't mean you can't be reported for an offence I'm afraid. It might seem harsh, but it looks to me like in offering you a way out so to speak, without attending court, is a good result. Unless of course you want to fight it in the Mags court, but by doing so you risk a Criminal Record and a hefty fine.

[EMTVictim]

The journey was from Long Eaton to Nottingham.

 

No selection is made under offered/paid. It simply says that. It's a written form, rather than typed.

 

I'm not disputing that I owe them the fare, I was attempting to pay that at the time. I just can't see how it's legal to refuse to let me pay for my journey, then ask for the money back later on plus costs.

It's a waste of the courts time by dragging me before them for 20p. I did offer the full amount, and it's not recorded on his written statement anywhere. By not deleting one of offered/paid, the statement currently looks like I made no offer to pay.

 

I already have a summons. This journey was made 3 months ago, and they sent me the notice a few days ago.

 

Should I pay them and then claim the money back from Cross Country trains? I don't really want to do that, as Cross Country seem like one of the few companies that aren't set up to shaft customers first and serve them second. But it's because of their passenger's charter that I was on one in the first place. How is it legal to create a charter that basically says "Go ahead, break the law, we'll sell you a ticket"?

 

If it's a criminal offence it should say so.

 

Another question: If I'd paid the full amount for the return ticket rather than just buying the return portion (which I did on the revenue protection officer's advice) would I now be facing court action?

Edited May 9, 2011 by EMTVictim

[Maxwell TM]

Although you can be sold a full price fare if you do not have a valid ticket on boarding the train, having had the opportunity to purchase one, all front line staff have the option to report ticketless travellers should it be considered appropriate. They do not have to accept the fare.

 

 

The inspector will have submitted the relevant report and the prosecutions department considered their next action. In your case, despite the fact that you committed an offence, they have decided to proceed without court action. Take a look here http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

 

These Conditions of Carriage are referred to in the XC Passenger Charter, which BTW, nowhere states that full price tickets are the only sanction available.

 

 

Experienced RP staff have advised you to settle if possible and I have to agree. I'm sorry if it seems harsh, but your well reasoned posts just won't stand up in court.

[EMTVictim]

I'm grateful for any advice received.

 

It just seems that I'm being scammed out of my hard earned money. EMT seems to count legal costs as a legitimate revenue stream. I also have a great personal aversion to being forced to admit a crime when I've been led to believe that it is acceptable.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "they have decided to proceed without court action". I have a summons.

 

The only option you appear to be able to recommend is to pay around £100 for the sake of 20p I was told not to pay.

 

Again, I ask the question. How can a charter containing "If you board one of our trains without a ticket you will be charged the full single fare or full return fare" coexist with the byelaw? I don't understand how it's possible...

[Stigy]

It's a waste of the courts time by dragging me before them for 20p. I did offer the full amount, and it's not recorded on his written statement anywhere. By not deleting one of offered/paid, the statement currently looks like I made no offer to pay.

Even though you bought a ticket at a later date, this is imaterial I'm afraid. That being said, it's the actual full fare that is to be claimed.

 

Should I pay them and then claim the money back from Cross Country trains? I don't really want to do that, as Cross Country seem like one of the few companies that aren't set up to shaft customers first and serve them second. But it's because of their passenger's charter that I was on one in the first place. How is it legal to create a charter that basically says "Go ahead, break the law, we'll sell you a ticket"?

 

If it's a criminal offence it should say so.

I doubt you'd get any money back from Cross Country, given it's EMT you're dealing with. It's a Byelaw Offence with is a Criminal Offence, although not a recordable one on the Police National Computer.

 

The £100 or so quid would mean no court action, which arguably is the best option for you. The idea of the court system is to give all a fair trial, so if you disagree with EMT, by all means go to court. Just be warned that if you lose, you will be liable for a higher penalty and a criminal record. You can of course dispute the courts decision, and go to Crown Court...

[Maxwell TM]

Sorry, I must have misread this. I thought that they had decided to proceed without involving the courts. Do you have an alternative to the summons, it seems that you have or am I confusing things even more?

 

The Charter does not exclude the TOC from the provisions of relevant statute and/or Byelaws. It does however serve notice that a full fare ticket can be issued in cases like yours. However, it appears the inspector considered that your 'offence' merited a report, possibly because you had failed to buy the ticket when facilities were available.. This is based on interpretation of the facts you have provided. I am sorry if this is not what you expected to hear, but there is a reasonable consensus, arrived at by folk who work on both sides of the process. You are not being pursued for 20p, but for the ticket which had not been purchased before the incident was reported.

 

I can only echo Stigy's point which is made above ref court.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Maxwell TM
After re reading OP

[SRPO]

From National Rail website:

Penalty Fares apply to journeys from Long Eaton station when travelling with:

East Midlands Trains

Penalty Fares do not apply if travelling with:

Cross Country

Now unless the fare was considered to be 'at risk' I think they would struggle to prove the case in court as you are only liable for the full standard fare, there is no Penalty for not buying before travelling (aside from no cheap day discount).

It may be that the RPI thought you had traveled with EMT? It might be that the RPI thought you were attempting to avoid the fare due? its impossible to say with only your version of the incident.

 

IF as you say you boarded the train with the intent to pay onboard (as you are able to do on Cross Country) & actively sought to pay immediately upon arrival at Nottingham without passing any pay points etc. my view is that any prosecution would be doomed to fail.

 

It is a very big IF tho..........

[Old-CodJA]

I'm sorry that this isn't what you are going to want to hear.

 

Very simply, I'm afraid that unless you boarded at Long Eaton at a time when you can show that the booking office was closed AND the self-service ticket machine was out of order, your claim is doomed to failure in my opinion. (Long Eaton has both)

 

You had an opportunity to purchase a ticket at Long Eaton station and did not do so. If the scenario described above was evident, then you were obliged to seek someone to pay on the train and to offer the fare to that person before being asked to show a ticket, but from your original post it seems that you did neither

 

Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act (1889) states 'having not previously paid...' Purchasing a ticket AFTER being reported does not prevent prosecution

 

The striclt liability requirement of National Railway Byelaw 18.2 is to show a valid rail ticket on demand where pre-purchase facilities were available to you and you failed that test without good reason. Being late for the train or not wanting to queue are not valid reasons for travelling without a ticket. By your own admission you also fail Byelaw 18.1, which requires that you use the pre-purchase facilities that were available to you.

 

I really think that you would be well advised to try to settle this promptly by making payment to the TOC in order to avoid the Court hearing.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[EMTVictim]

Thanks for a positive reply, SRPO. I was about to give up all faith in the justice system.

 

An "at risk" fare is one he believes wouldn't be paid if he wasn't there?

 

That was my thinking exactly though, I should be liable for the fare (as is right) as per the Cross Country Charter. The RPI did ask which train I'd come in on, and I explained that it was a XC service. It is recorded on his statement as a train that "departs around 8:20". It's 8:19, and there are EMT services about 15 minutes either side of that. He didn't seem bothered about checking that though.

 

I did indeed board with intent to pay. I was quite annoyed that I couldn't, as it normally means queues at the exit to Nottingham. I think the other people without tickets saw what happened to me and made for another exit that morning.

 

There are no other pay points at Nottingham. I think they're trying to make it a compulsory ticket area (a mixture of manned barriers and electronic), which I find slightly disturbing seeing as they're normally only allowed to do that if all operators arriving at the station are penalty fare services. Somebody has allowed them to do this, and I've no idea why.

 

Personally, if I were trying to catch fare evaders, I'd stand on the other side of the two girls selling tickets. That way, anyone coming past must have had a guaranteed opportunity to buy a ticket. Instead, he stood blocking my way to them. I don't think he cares if if the fare was at risk or not. He got a name for his book and that was all he was interested in.

 

I think I'm going to have to ask Cross Country for their feedback on this. It was their train, their charter and ultimately their decision. If they say I'm breaking the law by boarding one of their trains with no ticket, I'll settle immediately. If they say not, I'll get something in writing.

[EMTVictim]

And thanks to all the others as well.

 

I'm just incredibly angry if the law allows them to do this. By the letter of the law, they could slow ticket selling to an absolute crawl in order to goad people into travelling without a ticket. As long as there's a ticket office open, they can prosecute. That's clearly not right. It may be the law, but it doesn't make it right.

 

Only the other day the office was closed and the only way of buying a ticket was the machine. At a station as busy as that at peak times, there is no way that can be allowed. There has to be an allowance for common sense somewhere. I've seen various recommendations that queues not exceed 5 minutes at peak times, but if that's not enforced anywhere, then just what is the point? The TOC can do whatever it likes and there's nothing me or anyone else can do about it.

[Maxwell TM]

Good luck with this one. Personally, I think your case will fall, but there is SRPO's post and he/she is an expert. I am just concerned as to why you didn't buy before travel and why you seemed not to have searched out the guard of the train.

 

No one wants a shoal of ticketless travellers. The hassle in dealing with them would not be worth the modest if any financial gain. Sadly, there is a culture of fare avoidance and RP teams do their best to combat it. Perhaps you suffered 'collateral damage' although you do appear to have offended against the letter of the law.

 

Please do update us. I personally treat this forum as a learning resource as well as being able to offer some modest input.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Maxwell TM

[EMTVictim]

Normally I do, but I looked at the queue and figured it would be more than five minutes. It's kind of dependent on the day and staff member as there is only one ticket window. Some staff are fast. Some staff you'll be quicker using the machine. In this case it was Monday (weekly ticket refresh day, and they seem to have changed the system for that recently as it used to be quick, now he has to enter a lengthy code for each one).

 

Personally, I'd love a fully automated barrier and Oyster type system, but barring some kind of miracle, that's never going to happen round here. Also, a maximum fare when things go wrong on the underground is a bit different to a maximum fare where it could be Glasgow to St Pancras...

 

All I've seen since EMT took over are new, slower ticket machines in the ticket office. I agree absolutely that if everyone bought on the train, it would never work. There needs to be some middle ground between "queue for 20 minutes and miss your train" and "see you in court, buddy".

[Wriggler7]

A summons has been issued. I suspect that prior to summons, you will have received post from EMT. It may be that the time for dealing with the issue outside of Court has gone.

 

Did you get letters prior to a summons?

[EMTVictim]

Yeah, but it said it was in relation to an offence on board an EMT Service.

 

I didn't respond to it for fear of incriminating myself in some way.

 

Is it worth ringing them up and trying to settle out of court?

[Old-CodJA]

I think I'm going to have to ask Cross Country for their feedback on this. It was their train, their charter and ultimately their decision. If they say I'm breaking the law by boarding one of their trains with no ticket, I'll settle immediately. If they say not, I'll get something in writing.

 

It might be worth bearing in mind that the Cross Country Passenger Charter is a kind of guideline for best practice. It is a set of targets that a train company strive to achieve, but which are not legally binding although I understand it might be read as you have done

 

Nonetheless, the Railways Byelaws are a NATIONAL legislation and binding on all parties. If you could have bought a ticket and there was a train every 15 minutes from your originating station to your destination, I cannot see that a Court would rule it unreasonable to expect a traveller to buy a ticket and catch the next train in accordance with National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

 

.

[Sophie90]

Hello, could i ask what your outcome was for 'East Midlands Trains Prosecution Letter' as i have just receieved one myself. I get trains all the time and i often see people buying their tickets on the train, so when i saw that my train was in two minutes i just thought it seemed more convientient to do this. However a conductor did not come so when i got off the train i approached a lady from the revenue protection team and asked if i could buy my ticket off her. She did not allow me and gave me a caution. I now have a letter summoning me to court which seems completely unreasonable as it states on EMT website that 'The Penalty Fare is £20 or double the single Anytime fare to the next station stop – whichever is the greater amount '. And like you i was not given the opportunity to do this. It also implies on the statement that i refused to pay as it says 'Offered/Paid - Nil' which is a lie. Like you i am not trying to justify getting on the train without a ticket but i do deserve to be treated fairly. My friend with me at the time was also cautioned but she has not been summoned to court. I am due to leave the country at the end of January with my job so am thinking i should just plead guilty incase i go to court and it gets adjourned. And i am not prepared to let my career be ruined for the sake of a £2.00 ticket when i know i am an honest person and have never been in trouble with the law. If i could just ask how much you ended up paying please so i have an idea. And if you went to court what happened? Thanks

[The Urbanite]

EMT have a notoriously strict policy when it comes to ticketing and to be fair, it is advertised in print. You turned down two opportunities to buy a ticket so they're quite within their rights to initiate actions against you.

[EMTVictim]

EMT have a notoriously strict policy when it comes to ticketing and to be fair, it is advertised in print. You turned down two opportunities to buy a ticket so they're quite within their rights to initiate actions against you.

 

No it isn't. If it said, "If you board a train without a ticket, you'll be fined £388.60 by a court, under an unfair law that only exists to line company profits", then you wouldn't get on one.

 

The entire byelaws need repealing. If you read them you'll see why. Just about everything is a prosecutable offence. It's a jobsworth's charter.

 

If I ever get cautioned again for anything, I'm giving a false name/address. Don't rely on the law working, or the courts being right. It's all in the pockets of thieves and **** like EMT...

[Stonk73]

No it isn't. If it said, "If you board a train without a ticket, you'll be fined £388.60 by a court, under an unfair law that only exists to line company profits", then you wouldn't get on one.

 

The entire byelaws need repealing. If you read them you'll see why. Just about everything is a prosecutable offence. It's a jobsworth's charter.

 

If I ever get cautioned again for anything, I'm giving a false name/address. Don't rely on the law working, or the courts being right. It's all in the pockets of thieves and **** like EMT...

 

Oh my. Let the games begin! (ducks for shelter)

[The Urbanite]

No it isn't. If it said, "If you board a train without a ticket, you'll be fined £388.60 by a court, under an unfair law that only exists to line company profits", then you wouldn't get on one.

 

The entire byelaws need repealing. If you read them you'll see why. Just about everything is a prosecutable offence. It's a jobsworth's charter.

 

If I ever get cautioned again for anything, I'm giving a false name/address. Don't rely on the law working, or the courts being right. It's all in the pockets of thieves and **** like EMT...

 

 

Look, each case needs to be treated on its own, individual merits. Our poster implies that they walked past an open ticket office, mistake No.1. They then state that the conductor "did not come." Now if the ticket really was worth £2.00 as the OP said, I wouldn't expect the journey to be long enough to reasonably expect a conductor to have made their way through the entire train, some of them are up to 8 coaches long. So that's two opportunities where the OP made no effort to buy a ticket and only "approached" a member of staff where presumably it was not possible to continue without passing them.

 

I have my own disputes going on with EMT, but the circumstances are not the same. I genuinely had no opportunity to buy a discounted staff ticket, yet the conductor demanded the full fare from me, as well as having several disputes with conductors on the train who refused to accept the valid tickets I was using.

[MrGates]

Sophie90 EMT are not obliged to accept an offered fare or even give the option of a penalty fare in any case where a passenger has boarded a train without having previously paid at a station with ticket selling facilities.

 

EMTvictim I'm suprised after reading your posts that you would be willing to allow yourself to get into a situation where you maybe cautioned again, you are on system now and a failure of correct details is a seperate prosecutable case as intent to avoid future contact with the TOC would exist.

 

I struggle to see why such posters should be in place, its pretty obvious your going to need a ticket to travel if there are booking offices or machines, TOCs don't spend money on staff and equipment for it to be ignored because the passenger was LATE!!!!

[RPI]

I fail to see how anyone can say these days that they didn't know they had to buy a ticket before boarding, all Penalty Fare stations have loads of huge bright yellow posters headed with "WARNING, HAVE YOU PAID?", there are usually announcements at most stations. As for giving false deatils next time go ahead, then see what happens when you are charged with an offence under RRA which carries a higher penalty and criminal record, RP staff have ways of checking details!