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URGENT PLease Help! Harrow PCN appeal deadline tomorrow!


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Hi All, Could really do with your expert help with these......iposted a while back re: 2 CCTV pcns from harrow after going through the whole process of submiting an OOT stat dec and having my warrants revoked and then the pcns reissued back in feb. these were for contraventions back in jan 2010. You were all very helpful in myletter to harrow requesting more evidence and traffic orders and asking them to consider the fact that it had been 14 months since the alleged contravention.

However here is their reply--they are clearly intending on pursuing this ---

 

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can anyone find any anomalies for my appeal? a few thoughts i had were:

1) they havent shown anyevidence of signs indicating cameras as asked for

2) they have given me 14 days to appeal but from when ? date on letter or date of receipt (22nd april) though this is informal so not sure how much weight this has

3) some images dont even show car reg...others do.....the ones sent to me on orginal pcn didn clearly show contravention when clearly they had better photos they could have sent

4) despite them saying the delay was not their fault----does it really take a year before the stat dec process?

 

any immediate help would be most apprecaited since i ahve to submit this tmrw!! (sorry i didnt post earlier but have been away for a week).

 

many thanks in advance...

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There have been adjudication cases which have been won on the basis that the delay between the PCN and the hearing is excessive. Yours would certainly fit that description! If the alleged contravention was over a year ago, and you have not even been corresponded with for months, how can you be expected to recall all the events on the day to build a defence?

 

You could go with that as a line of appeal - irrespective of the Council saying "not my fault" for the delay, it's still unreasonable now.

 

You'll need to make a formal representation, and if they reject it then apply for an adjudication hearing.

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thanks jamberson--that was certanly the line i was going to use--iwas just wondering if there was anything additional to throw in.

also by formal representation --can i just write a letter as i dont have any official paperwork to do this?

given the tight deadline I was just going to attach it as an email as harrow confirm receipt.

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What was the date of the district judge's order n respect of the original PCN?

In the council's letter they say that failure (by you) to make representations or pay the PCN "will incur further charges" . That is an untrue statement. At this juncture it may result in the loss of a discount. That is not the same as a further charge. I would argue that it is an unlawful attempt to get you to pay (in addition to all the other points you have).

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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also by formal representation --can i just write a letter as i dont have any official paperwork to do this?

 

Yes. Put your name and address and the PCN number, and explain why you are challenging the PCN.

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i sent them an email attachement making my representations and recived the following reply today.......!!! what oearth does this mean?? what do i do now??!

 

Dear

Please refer to our letter of 20/04/11, the Council will not enter into any further correspondence regarding the penalty charge notice.

 

Many thanks

Parking Enforcement

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The shedule of the TMO sent to you doesnt appear to provide for penalty charges for contraventions, thay have also failed to send any aneabling paperwork persuant sections 6 to 18 of the traffic orders procedures. (did you send for it ???) so you realy cannot make an informed decision weather this TMO is legal

 

You can also now argue an unreasonable delay (even tho the order was revoked LOL) persuant to Davis v Kensington and Chelsea

 

I think your 14 day argument may have weight --always worth throwing these in your appeal

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i sent them an email attachement making my representations and recived the following reply today.......!!! what oearth does this mean?? what do i do now??!

 

Dear

Please refer to our letter of 20/04/11, the Council will not enter into any further correspondence regarding the penalty charge notice.

 

Many thanks

Parking Enforcement

 

I think it means they screwed up! Their letter says you can pay or make a formal representation. When you did the latter, they replied saying they won't enter into correspondence, which is a contradiction.

 

Not sure how best to play it, but they are in error now. Maybe wait until you hear from them again, then slap them with this impropriety, quoting their letter and their email. They may well concede then.

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@ jamberson

 

Ref the £10 sur charge for obtaining a hard copy of video. Would there ba an argument whereby this would increase the penalty in the event it is impossible to view in person.

Where in the regs does it state they can make this extra charge.

 

 

Would it not be a good idea to put the onus on them to provide evidence that they are entitled to make this charge by way of a procedural impropriety appeal and fully explain why it is non redeemable in the event of a successfull appeal.

 

I also read somewhere that they have to provide it free of charge at adjudication, which is also a contradiction

any thoughts ??

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nero,

this was the content of the appeal letter sent to harrow:

 

I refer to your letter(s) dated 14th March and received on 22nd March and in response I am challenging the above PCN(s) on the following grounds:

Procedural impropriety:

Due to the following reasons:

1) There has been an unreasonable delay (14 months) since the date of alleged contravention, therefore it is impossible for me to recollect the details of my circumstances so as to mount an effective appeal

2) The CCTV images provided on the initial PCNs do not clearly show a contravention – cropped photograph, very dark, no signs etc.

Due to the above I am requesting the following:

1) The viewing of CCTV footage - as I live and work 100 miles away from Harrow, it is inconvenient for me to visit the council offices during the time period stated so please could you send on a hard copy on disk to my postal address.

2) Evidence that all signs and lines are correct to the TSRGD 2002 – if not, all drawings together with evidence of DFT aproval.

3) A copy of the relevant traffic order for the area and all documentation that it has been properly enabled according to the traffic order procedures.

4) Evidence that the CCTV camera is an approved device and that there was clear signage warning motorists that surveillance is being carried out in that area and that it is not merely for the convenience of the council.

I look forward to your prompt reply.

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jamberson....so u dont think i should phone the council and ask what that was about and should just wait? i presume the charge will go up (well discount lost ) by then..but yes i was thinknking that would be yet another procedural impropriety to add to the list!

 

nero--good point re: charge --hadnt considered that..... as i have already submitted representations now i guess ill have to wait for the next stage to include these additional gems! btw that letter i just posted was my original informal reps to harrow..i will now post the formal one i sent last night to which i received the random 1-line email from harrow.

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formal appeal letter sent last night:

I refer to your letter(s) dated 19th and 20th April, both received on 22nd April and in response please consider this letter as official representation challenging the above PCN(s) on the following grounds:

Procedural impropriety:

Due to the following reasons:

1) There has been an unreasonable delay (15 months) since the date of alleged contravention, therefore it is impossible for me to recollect the details of my circumstances so as to mount an effective appeal

2) The council’s argument regarding the delay does not change the circumstances; additionally, a signed witness statement was provided with the Statutory declaration indicating no council correspondence was received at the previous address.

3) The CCTV images provided on the initial PCNs did not clearly show a contravention – cropped photograph, very dark, no signs etc. Clearly better photographs were available but were not provided until 15 months after alleged contravention. However, many of the long range photographs do not show the car registration. The close range photos show the registration but do not clearly show the contravention. The photo’s also show that it was dark and snowing, and as it has been 15 months since the date of the alleged contravention, it is impossible for me to recall the events on the day to build a defence.

4) The request for clear signage warning motorists that surveillance is being carried out in that area and that it is not merely for the convenience of the council was not responded to.

5) The time period in which to make my representations is not clear-only a statement saying the case will be put on hold for 14 days from an unspecified date.

6) The instruction that failure to pay or make representations “will incur further charges” is an unlawful attempt to force me to pay.

Hence, I urge you to consider these circumstances and cancel the PCNs on these grounds; otherwise, I will have no choice but to pursue this case with the parking adjudicator.

I look forward to your prompt reply.

i guess now i can also add the £10 charge issue and the incomplete TMOs to a future appeal...butm abit confused as to what happens now--i am guessing the next stage is NTO and they will ask full payment --thereby ignoring my current representation andthen i can add that to my list of improprieties!

 

the harrow council workers dont appear to be very sharp--every single form of documentation i have ever received form them seems tobe error-bound!

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It's tricky knowing how best to play it - but theire refusal to consider your representations, having already advised that they would, is probably catastrophic for them. I think you should wait now, until they contact you - then protest the pursuance of the case because of this. It's what I think is the best tactic now, although others might disagree.

 

I would also be careful not to over-complicate your appeal. Right now, I think you have two very strong hands to play: 1 - they refused to consider your representation; and 2 - it's too old for you to be able to defend.

 

I agree wth the other points raised by Nero and others, but I think you probably don't need technicalities like these. The trouble is, you have too many options!

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It's tricky knowing how best to play it - but theire refusal to consider your representations, having already advised that they would, is probably catastrophic for them. I think you should wait now, until they contact you - then protest the pursuance of the case because of this. It's what I think is the best tactic now, although others might disagree.

 

I would also be careful not to over-complicate your appeal. Right now, I think you have two very strong hands to play: 1 - they refused to consider your representation; and 2 - it's too old for you to be able to defend.

 

I agree wth the other points raised by Nero and others, but I think you probably don't need technicalities like these. The trouble is, you have too many options!

On the face of it failure to consider and unreasonable time delay MAY win this but you never know with adjudicators. The £10 surcharge argument AFAIK has not been tested --by throwing this in the mix the authority may not want to risk this at tribunal. Just think for a moment -- the parking manager that allows this to be tested and loses , no pressure me thinks. LOL

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thanks -will bear this in mind wheni get to the next stage--which i am assuming will be the nto..though this i not v clear...will come back on here re: help with that when i get the next comedy letter!

 

thanks for all ur help.

 

p.s what is AFAIK

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  • 3 months later...

just a quick update (or lack of update should i say!)...its is now over 3 months since that last letter asking them to consider my formal representations and I have heard nothing since their automated "we will not enter into any further correspondence"...so what should i do? still wait? follow up with another letter? looking under my reg on their website-i still have these two parking tickets outstanding but they are still held at the discounted rate. am i correct in assuming now they ahve really blown it as they are well over they 56 days in which to respond???

 

thanks for all ur help

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Authorities have 56 days fromn the date they recieve representations to offer a response. If they fail to respond they are deemed to have accepted that the contravention has not occured.

Is this your second go at the formal stage

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no not really second go....well its a bit strange really--they rejected my informal representations and then said in their last letter dated 19th/20th april that i either had to pay or make formal representations but they didnt give me any forms and i hadnt been sent an nto or anything. But they said if i didnt pay or make reps within 14 days then case would progress. So I then sent the letter posted below as my formal representation (though dont know if they thought it was a second informal rep). Either way..it hsa been 3 months since that letter and i still dont have a response or an NTO or any communication from them whatsoever. All i got (as mentioned below) in reponse to the orginal letter the next day was that they would not enter into any further correspondence.....which is the discussion below.

 

it seems to me that they might have thought it was another informal, so refused to respond, even tho they had asked me to make representations......either way...i should have at least been sent an nto. as it stands i have heard nothing since challenging of the inital PCN (which was already a duplicate 14 months after contravention after having my warrants revoked). now it is 19 months since contravention.....and at least 100 days since i have heard anything from council. Still it shows i have these pcns outstanding though!!

 

what should i do?? anything ?? or just leave it for them to get in touch if needs be?

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no not really second go....well its a bit strange really--they rejected my informal representations and then said in their last letter dated 19th/20th april that i either had to pay or make formal representations but they didnt give me any forms and i hadnt been sent an nto or anything. But they said if i didnt pay or make reps within 14 days then case would progress. So I then sent the letter posted below as my formal representation (though dont know if they thought it was a second informal rep). Either way..it hsa been 3 months since that letter and i still dont have a response or an NTO or any communication from them whatsoever. All i got (as mentioned below) in reponse to the orginal letter the next day was that they would not enter into any further correspondence.....which is the discussion below.

 

it seems to me that they might have thought it was another informal, so refused to respond, even tho they had asked me to make representations......either way...i should have at least been sent an nto. as it stands i have heard nothing since challenging of the inital PCN (which was already a duplicate 14 months after contravention after having my warrants revoked). now it is 19 months since contravention.....and at least 100 days since i have heard anything from council. Still it shows i have these pcns outstanding though!!

 

what should i do?? anything ?? or just leave it for them to get in touch if needs be?

If this is for a reg 10 PCN --IE issued via cctv then you have to go formal as thess act as the nto

 

Can you let us know what you went in with and how many times you have written

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  • 3 weeks later...

nero, see previous post for the letter i went in with -this was my second letter and the one deemed formal reps in response to their letter dated 20th april also pasted previously on this thread.....

 

 

checking the harrow council website, they are still showing outstanding pcns at £50 each ie they have just frozen it at this stage and havent advanced the case nor withdrawn it....

 

formal appeal letter sent last night:

I refer to your letter(s) dated 19th and 20th April, both received on 22nd April and in response please consider this letter as official representation challenging the above PCN(s) on the following grounds:

 

Procedural impropriety:

Due to the following reasons:

 

1) There has been an unreasonable delay (15 months) since the date of alleged contravention, therefore it is impossible for me to recollect the details of my circumstances so as to mount an effective appeal

2) The council’s argument regarding the delay does not change the circumstances; additionally, a signed witness statement was provided with the Statutory declaration indicating no council correspondence was received at the previous address.

3) The CCTV images provided on the initial PCNs did not clearly show a contravention – cropped photograph, very dark, no signs etc. Clearly better photographs were available but were not provided until 15 months after alleged contravention. However, many of the long range photographs do not show the car registration. The close range photos show the registration but do not clearly show the contravention. The photo’s also show that it was dark and snowing, and as it has been 15 months since the date of the alleged contravention, it is impossible for me to recall the events on the day to build a defence.

4) The request for clear signage warning motorists that surveillance is being carried out in that area and that it is not merely for the convenience of the council was not responded to.

5) The time period in which to make my representations is not clear-only a statement saying the case will be put on hold for 14 days from an unspecified date.

6) The instruction that failure to pay or make representations “will incur further charges” is an unlawful attempt to force me to pay.

 

Hence, I urge you to consider these circumstances and cancel the PCNs on these grounds; otherwise, I will have no choice but to pursue this case with the parking adjudicator.

I look forward to your prompt reply.

 

i guess now i can also add the £10 charge issue and the incomplete TMOs to a future appeal...butm abit confused as to what happens now--i am guessing the next stage is NTO and they will ask full payment --thereby ignoring my current representation andthen i can add that to my list of improprieties!

 

the harrow council workers dont appear to be very sharp--every single form of documentation i have ever received form them seems tobe error-bound!

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  • 1 month later...

please help!!

have just checked the harrow council PCN website and one of these two PCNS is now showing an outstanding £150 charge!!! the other still held at £50!

what is going on --does this mean it has been escalated to charge certificate--i still have no correspondence from them!! i cant believe this is happening again!! its seems they will claim they have sent letters now that i ahvent received again!!---how should i play this now...contact harrrow and say " why is the charge higher on your website when i ahvent received anything from you?" and "why did you say you wont enter into further correspondence after you asked me to submit a representation?".....i dont ahve any paperwork to fill in though from them.

also how to i now they wont escalate this to the bailiffs AGAIN and try and take my car??!

can anyone please help?!

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I've just tried to make another formal challenge via their website....this is what i wrote....

 

In response to your letter(s) dated 20th April, you advised me that you would put the case on hold so that i could make formal representations. In reponse to this, I made my formal representations as requested on the 2nd May, and on 4th May I received a letter from you saying "Please refer to our letter of 20/04/11, the Council will not enter into any further correspondence regarding the penalty charge notice. ".

So after telling me to make a representation, you have then said you wont consder it. Very confused, I had no choice but to wait for the next piece of correspondence from you. To date I have received nothing else from you...so i decided to check out your website as to what to do and realised from here that you have escalated the charge despite my representation whcih you refused to consider.

Hence, I urge you to cancel all pending charges associated with this PCN otherwise i have no choice but to continue to the parking adjudicator.

yours sincerely,

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