Accused of Theft/price swap.

[ItsEssexRob]

Ok so Im going to be totally honest here.

 

My name is Rob and have been suffering from depression ( which I take medication for) for years now. I only 8 months ago became a dad, and have been suffering from intense financial pressure from all sides.

 

Soafter it was getting too much I attemped to do a price swap on food items at tescos ( switching reduced stickers) to which the store had caught on and was watching on CCTV, upon getting through the till the security guard apprehended me and took me into a back room ( I hadnt read what this site says btw)

 

The police came and issued me with a FPN for £80 as it was a first offence and did not warrant an arrest. The Police then left the room and the shop and I have been told no more action will be taken. However I am being persued by CRL according to Tesco's and that concerns me much more

 

The amount it totalled in actual food costs was £27.78. And reading what previous people have said about amounts as low as £1.00 ended up with a £600 CRL bill I am now panicking as if I couldnt afford to manage before how could I ever pay an amount which could be 27 times 600?

 

I made no attempt to argue the accusation as I held my hands up to doing what I did out of desperation, and did not attempt to get out of FPN or anything like that, but tesco do have my details for the CRL and that is what im concerned about.

 

How does CRL actually work, is it a criminal offence to not respond to their letters, are they backed up by the law? or are they just a company that bullies you into paying even though theres no lawful ground for them to take as much money as they do? If I continuously ignored them and their court requests afterwards can they get back to Tescos and tescos take me to court over it? Tesco do have cctv tapes of me commiting the act so there are no ambiguities about my crime.

 

Basically, im quite happy to pay for what was wasted and some costs, but not if they are going to be extortionate costs.

 

I have read some poeple saying CRL claim the cost goes up as you dont pay but then heard they offer the ability to only pay 80% of the fee, whats the deal here?

 

I would be quite willing to admitt I was wrong and pay anything from the cost of the food to say £100 but I cant manage if they send me a bill of say 300+

 

Have they changed now since ironically Im sure I saw them on watchdog last week?

 

Anyone help me?

 

Thanks

 

Rob

Edited April 24, 2011 by ItsEssexRob

[rebel11]

Hi It

 

Welcome to CAG

The guys will advise as soon as they are available. I've added a couple of links, don't panic.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?236-Retail-loss-Prevention-Other-shoplifting-allegations.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?247466-Civil-Recovery-Limited&highlight=crl

[Sidewinder]

Hi Rob

 

You did indeed see this on Watchdog and their site http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/2011/04/guide_to_civil_recovery.html will give you some useful information, as will reading the stories of many others on this forum, so before you get too stressed, I suggest that you do so.

 

Right. Now you are almost certainly going to receive letters from RLP (Retail Loss Prevention) threatening that they will sue you if you choose not to pay them a fee to contribute to the costs involved in your wrongdoing. This will almost certainly be a pre-determined amount (but will almost certainly be nowhere near £600!) which is why there have been a good many people investigating the legality of how RLP operate, for whilst there is a very tenuous grain of truth in their claim that civil action could be taken, this would only be possible if they were able to substantiate that the amount claimed was a direct result of your action. They will claim that the amount owed represents a proportion of the costs for security (they would be paid anyway despite your actions), management time (they would be paid anyway), the cost of relisting or reticketing the item you interfered with (how would they quantify that?), so all in all, it is impossible to prove that whatever they claim would not have had to be paid anyway, and no loss=no claim against you.

 

When you hear from RLP, the accepted position is that you should reply once only, to deny that you owe them anything, you will not be playing ball, and that they should not write to you in future. They will write back, probably several times, and will maybe even employ a debt collector to chase you, but you need do nothing about any of this as they are EXTREMELY unlikely to even consider taking you to court.

 

Any time you get stressed, or need advice, post back here and ask!

[ItsEssexRob]

Thanks for the replies guys,

Looked at the links provided.

My main concern is that I admitted to knowingly commiting the crime ( there was no other option as when caught it was on CCTV), and a lot of these cases are people who have been wrongfully called up.

 

Does this make a difference to whether RLP should be sending these letters or collecting these 'debts' or should I still ignore them after sending a reply back first?

[rebel11]

Hi It

 

In your initial post you've highlighted the situation, 'The police came and issued me with a FPN for £80 as it was a first offence and did not warrant an arrest. The Police then left the room and the shop and I have been told no more action will be taken.'

Thats why RPL pursuit is wrong, the matter has been dealt with. I know it's difficult, lets see what they do. If they do take you to court, remember you've got a couple of PC's to call as witnesses, they can verify what you were told.

 

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/uncivil_recovery.pdf

[Sidewinder]

You admitted what you did and agreed to the £80 FPN. You did not agree to pay a further amount plucked out of thin air by RLP!

[ItsEssexRob]

Ok so I recieved the letter from RLP today, and this is what it says in full.

 

We act on behalf of Tesco, we are instructed that on 23rd of April 2011 at our clients premisis you commited a wrongful act causing loss to our client.

 

We hereby serve formal notice that, due to your wrongful actions our client has withdrawn its permission with immediate effect for you to enter any of its stores for life. ( although when at the one store I was told I was only banned from the one store and have since bene going into other local tescos all the time, so im confused about this bit). Future entry will amount to trespass and be unlawful. Failure to comply may result in police action and/or further civil action.

 

In addition to the cost of any goods not recovered or fit for resale, your wrongful actions diverted our clients staff from their normal duties for a significant period ( 40 minutes) causing disruption to its business for which our client is legally entitled to be compensated for. This includes time taken by personel involved such as security, management, administative and shop floor staff. Collectively a substantial amount of time was taken up in vigilantly observing your actions and apprehending, detaining and interviewing you in relation to the incident. Thereafter our client had to follow all recording, reporting and back office proceedures in relation to your actions and the good involved. Time is also taken in advising police and crime partnerships in relation to the incident for the detection and prevention of crime. The incident also gives rise to administation costs and maintaining systems to deal with this incident.

 

Although the costs our client is entitled to recover are considerable, our client seeks only a contribution towards those losses from you by way of a fixed amount of £161.17, a figure which our client considers is proportionate, but sufficient to act as a deterrent to future incidents. Provided our client does not seek to recover in excess of its losses, such losses are recoverable in law.

 

This matter is in relation to civil proceeding, and is entirely seperate from any police action or criminal proceedings. The purpose of criminal proceedings is to convict, punish and rehabilitate. The purpose of our clients civil action is to be compensated for its losses, and to serve as a deterrent to further incidents.

 

The practice direction relating to Pre Action Conduct and the Civil Procedure Rules 1998 encourage early exchange of information to promote settlement of claims. Accordingly, you now have these options

 

- You can pay the full amount of £161.17

-If you cannot pay the amount in full, we may be able to offer instalment payments.

-Negotiate settlement by contacting our Collections De partment

-Submit a written defence to the claim with a full account of your version of events.

 

You should take independent legal advice about your position if in doubt. You may be entitled to free legal advice from a law firm who hold a Public Funding Franchise or a law centre or other advice agency.

 

We require payment or a responce from you within 21 days from the date of this letter. Our offices can be contacted .... and then its just contact details.

 

There are then 'important information' bits on the other sheet such a FAQ.

 

How should I reply to them then?

 

Thanks

[jackieandwayne]

Follow the advice here, stop beating yourself up over this. Blow a huge raspberry, hop up and down as you tear the letter up, and then stick your fingers in the air as you trash it.

 

Just don't go pinching again - you are no good at it are you?! You are not the first and the way things are going in this country you most certainly won;t be the last.

 

The matter is done and dusted whatever comes through that letter box, but I think I might drop them a line to thank them for the loo paper in these tough times!

 

Don't take me literally will you? I'm on one today.

[ItsEssexRob]

Lol ok, but some on here suggest sending them a proactive letter back is good to get them to stop sending letters.

 

I was thinking something along the lines of

 

'I do not agree that the costs accurately represent the loss caused to the client'

'I have bene advised by the CAB not to reply further or to pay the said amount'

'Please do not contact me further regarding the matter, any further contact will be tantamount to harassment'

 

Should I write anything along these lines or is really the best course of action to just ignore every single letter? Wont they go away sooner if I reply?

 

Cheers

[jackieandwayne]

I'd just say something along thelines of "This was dealt with by way of FPN, I have no wish to contribute to anything, this matter is now closed. Any further correspondence from yourselves will be seen as harassment". Goodbye. And thanks for all the fish. (Rep points for first person to tell me where the fish quote comes from!).

 

Glad to make you LOL - much better than being depressed, just takes a while for the penny to drop when you actually have depression!

[ItsEssexRob]

The quote comes from the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy btw, the dolphins say it! Anyone else think a letter worded like me and my friend heres statement is the best way to go?

[2Grumpy]

I would avoid mentioning the fixed penalty if you do write

 

If it was me, I would just say that "I deny any liability to RLP or their clients and will not enter into any discussion into this." - nothing more

[ItsEssexRob]

I was also wondering if I should get a medication letter from the docsfor my citalopram as it does say on the back of the sheet under faq's that being on certain medications that may heighten the problem may produce a defence or words to that effect. Even though the pressure I was under was down to financial struggles and partners eating disorder. Anyone give me a rough draft of the best thing to say? Partner is panicking now, that the costs will go up.

 

Cheers

[ScarletPimpernel]

You do not need to mention your medication, clinical condition or anything else.

 

If you wish to write to RLP, a short note along these lines will do:

 

Dear Sirs

 

I refer to your letter of (date). I deny any liability to you or your client.

 

No further correspondence will be entered into.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Read the stickied CAB reports - you will see that RLP don't actually take people to court. If you need further reassurance/help, you could call in to your local CAB who may well write to RLP for you.

[AnonymousFighter]

I'm glad there are people here, who enlighten present victims of RLP. Personally, I know how scary it can be to receive threatening letters from them. Keep it up!

 

With personal experience, I ignored the letters and it worked. I'm not exactly suggesting that you should definitely try this but only do what you think is right. The suggestion of writing a letter shows that you have tried to negotiate with RLP and is useful if any court action did happen. (I'm not trying to scare you with the courts thing, as it's very unlikely, I hear…)

 

Anyway, I wish you the best in your situation. There are many good people here who will certainly be helpful.

[Sidewinder]

The generally accepted advice is to write once only, advising that you do not acknowledge any indebtedness to RLP and will not enter into any further correspondence. It won't stop them trying - indeed they will write again and tell you exactly why their claim is justified and how it would stand up in Court, but ultimately it wouldn't against a reasonable defence, hence why they won't try.

 

Their problem is that whilst a tort of trespass, or interference to goods could result in a claim for damages, they would have to prove that actual damages caused by your actions, and cannot sue for a pre-estimate of the amount.Even if they itemised the cost in terms of x hours at £x per hour, then this cannot be said to be actual damages, as those staff would have been working anyway, and the fact that your actions may have diverted them from doing other things is irrelevant as you cannot put a price on the 'lost' productivity - it is not as if they had to bring in another member of staff 'on call' so to speak and the cost of that was explicitly as a consequence of any wrongdoing.

 

- You can pay the full amount of £161.17 - exactly what they want - money in the bank, a small kickback to the retailer - hoping that using threatening legal terminology will convince you to pay up!

-If you cannot pay the amount in full, we may be able to offer instalment payments - just to make it easier to pick your pocket!

-Negotiate settlement by contacting our Collections Department - and if they were sure of the legal position, why even consider negotiating a discount?

-Submit a written defence to the claim with a full account of your version of events - so that they can pick holes in it and use even more legal wording to persuade you that you really ought to pay up!

 

They forgot the fifth option:-

Ignore us and in the end we will stop writing as it will then be costing us money to chase you for an amount that you clearly won't pay.

[/Quote]

 

Hopefully you will have read the CAB report onto Civil Recovery and will then note that RLP have not suggested that you visit CAB for advice. Clearly they (and we) will offer precisely the sort of advice that they would rather you did not receive.

[ItsEssexRob]

Also something thats confusing me slightly different. At the start of the letter they write

 

'We hereby serve formal notice that, due to your wrongful actions our client has withdrawn its permission with immediate effect for you to enter any of its stores for life. '

 

However when I was in the store they informed me I was only banned from the one store ( the one that I offended within). Is this RLP peice binding? Only I have been in another Tesco many times since and its been ok ( Obviously never ever doing anything dodgy again).

 

Do i follow what the actual store said or the RLP with regards to the banning? Thanks

[watchinginvestigation2011]

Didnt realise they had the time to have facial recognition in all of their stores:lol:

[ItsEssexRob]

Ok so this is the letter I am consdiering writing to them, as opposed to just ignoring them.

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

I am writing in reply to your letter sent on March 29th which states I am liable for the payment of £161.17 to RLP.

 

I completely deny any such liability to RLP and shall be making no such payment.

 

The Citizens Advice Bureau has advised me not to pay RLP as I am not liable for the amount stated. ( may or may not include depending on what you guys think)

 

I shall not be engaging in further conversation with RLP, and I do not wish to be contact anymore regarding this matter.

 

Any further contact will be seen as harassment and I will seek further legal advice. ( may or may not add as well)

 

Yours,

 

Can everyone advise me as to whether this is good to write or what to add/delete or whether its better to not reply at all? I could just ignore them but wont they keep sending me letters then?

[iamcute_lala]

Ok so this is the letter I am consdiering writing to them, as opposed to just ignoring them.

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

I am writing in reply to your letter sent on March 29th which states I am liable for the payment of £161.17 to RLP.

 

I completely deny any such liability to RLP and shall be making no such payment.

 

The Citizens Advice Bureau has advised me not to pay RLP as I am not liable for the amount stated. ( may or may not include depending on what you guys think)

 

I shall not be engaging in further conversation with RLP, and I do not wish to be contact anymore regarding this matter.

 

Any further contact will be seen as harassment and I will seek further legal advice. ( may or may not add as well)

 

Yours,

 

Can everyone advise me as to whether this is good to write or what to add/delete or whether its better to not reply at all? I could just ignore them but wont they keep sending me letters then?

 

You are so brave to write them in letter...

As coward like me would only hope to settle the thing down by paying 100 pounds

[jackieandwayne]

No, you are not a coward, you've simply been a bit daft, temporarily. They are the cowards, permanently, as they would never take you to court over this. I don;t see anything wrong in sending a letter such as the last one and the just completey ignore anything that comes through the door and it will go away eventually.

 

Do you know, this civil recovery nonsense, I have a laugh at the ticket guy in ASDA's here every single day. He doesn't even bother putting a ticket on my car because I told him one morning, "thanks, I'd forgotten my hanky, how useful!" and then proceeded to explain to him why I was laughing at him for writing a ticket! He knows my car so well now that even the dog sits up and grins when he sees him coming, instead of barking at him! He knows that I know he is just a sad little man doing a pointless job because the jobcentre told him he had to! He can get a bit touchy though when we have one of our conversations in earshot of other people parking their cars. I can be very loud.

 

This letter from RLP is exactly the same principle. If you like to have things done and dusted then drop them a line by all means, and then consider it closed. But if you can just ignore them without getting upset by the few letters you will get, the result will be the same eventually, nothing.

[ItsEssexRob]

So guys, is it better I just ignore it then, rather than a writing a letter similar to what I wrote? Im thinking maybe its better to just ignore them now rather than enter into dialogue, even if its dialogue to say i;m not paying.

[ItsEssexRob]

Ok so I recieved my second letter from RLP today.

 

I decided to ignore them before but I am now considering writing the letter in reply to attempt to resolve it

 

The letter says

 

We write further to our letter of 29th April. Our records indicate that you have not contacted us to settle the claim or to dispute liability. Our clients offer of a contribution of £161,17 to settle this matter is still on offer. In the absence of any response our client is entitled to persue the full value of the claim rather than the contribution you have been offered.

 

Our client is determined to make full use of civil law remedies including court action if necassary, to recover its losses caused by your wrongful actions. You are equired, under the practice direction relating to Pre action conduct and the civil proceedure rules 1998, to respond to us to advise whether you wish to settle the claim, whether you wish to defend the claim, or whether you require more time to respond. As failure to respond may result in costs sanctions if you later seek to rely upon a defence which is not notified to us prior to the issue of proceedings, we again urge you to seek some independant legal advice,

 

So what do you guys think about sending the following letter back?

 

'I deny any liability to RLP or its client,

 

The Citizens advice Bureau has advised me not to pay the claim, and not to engage in any further contact with RLP furthermore to this letter.

 

Please do not contact me again, any further contact will be seen as harassment and dealt with appropriately.

 

 

 

Should I be as forward as this or is there anything I should add or omit?

 

Thanks

Edited May 25, 2011 by ItsEssexRob

[2Grumpy]

If you didn't send your letter before, send it now

I wouldn't bother with the CAB sentence, no doubt they would try to twist it round against you

If you sent one previously, don't respond, otherwise you will encourage them - they will think that no means maybe

[ItsEssexRob]

Ok will send it with the CAB sentence ommited. What about the harassment sentence is that wise to keep in?