Bankruptcy and TRUSTEE's CHARGES....

[mlp123]

Ok,will just start with a short brief.

Inland revenue make me bankrupt for £3000.Offered to pay full amount but they refused offer said it was too late.

Long story short ended up having to pay nearly £30,000 or lose house some years later.

The ironic thing is i don't think any money went to inland revenue.Most of it was paid to trustee for his admin etc.

This wasn't a complex case and was shocked at the time to realise these people can do this with no apparent regulation.Anyone agree or know of an challenges against these people?

[debtinfo]

the trustees fees are set by the creditors as below, the OR's fees are set by law, did you have any other creditors, what assets were realised

 

The trustee’s/liquidator's remuneration

 

The OR's remuneration (payment) as trustee/liquidator is specified under insolvency law. An IP's remuneration as trustee/liquidator is fixed by the creditors'/liquidation committee. If there is no committee, it may be fixed at a meeting of creditors. The remuneration can be fixed as a percentage of the value of the assets realised and distributed or on a time basis. Any creditor, with the support of 25% in value of unsecured creditors, can apply to the court for the remuneration to be reviewed if they consider it too high. If the creditors do not agree a remuneration, the IP will receive the same as would have been paid to an OR, but s/he can apply to the court to agree a higher amount.

[mlp123]

Ok facts.Creditor Inland revenue £3000.

Offered to pay was told it was to late and nothing could be done.

Left office as one can imagine very p...ed off .Was told bank accounts etc would be frozen etc.

At the time around £4500 in account.

Frozen bank account take the money pay my creditor, inland revenue job done?

Property at time had no real equity and anyway didn't need to be involved in any form of realisation etc as far as i was concerned

as £4500 in bank account was more than enough to settle debt.

Years went by and tried to get on with my life then out the blue they put charge on house then force sale then i pay up £20000

they have cashed an endowment had £4500 so in all around £30000.

This wasn't a complex case they strecthed it out because of property interest then pounced when equity was there.

Look i have read similar cases this is a very grey area just like solicitors fees they make it as complex as they see it for a reason MONEY.

[debtinfo]

so did you have any other creditors, if not did you not look at getting an annulment at the start when the costs would have been much lower, did you, the bank or the trustee pay the Inland revenue

[mlp123]

Alas the internet wasn't a place that existed in my world back then.

Bankruptcy and all the other wonderful things that go with it was something i knew very little of back when it happend

Bankruptcy held a bit of a stigma back when it happened to me and advice was not ready available.

Would like to know how costs escalate from beginning to end.

[mlp123]

Who regulates the trustee etc.If there is a complaint who do you go to.

I can't believe i am the only person who has ever come across this situation.

The fact that the trustee can wait until a property has gone up in value then come out of the woods to

make a claim on the basis their charges are now 'x amount' and that the house is to be sold or find the money is wrong.

I know things have changed somewhat now but that doesn't address what has gone on prior to these new laws and time frame in bankruptcy.

Anyone out there?

[nottslad]

Insolvency Practitioners are regulated by the Insolvency Practitioners Association (IPA) and as such are self-regulated in much the same way as most industries; as such you can escalate a complaint to the IPA - http://www.insolvency-practitioners.org.uk/

[Johno100]

Insolvency Practitioners are regulated by the Insolvency Practitioners Association (IPA) and as such are self-regulated in much the same way as most industries; as such you can escalate a complaint to the IPA - http://www.insolvency-practitioners.org.uk/

 

No, there are a total of 8 authorising bodies:-

 

Institute of Chartered Accountants in England & Wales

Professional Standards Office

Metropolitan House

321 Avebury Boulevard

Milton Keynes MK9 2FZ

Tel:01908 248100 Fax: 01908 248088

http://www.icaew.co.uk

Insolvency Practitioners Association

Head of Regulatory Operations

Valiant House

4-10 Heneage Lane

London EC3A 5DQ

Tel 020 7623 5108 Fax: 020 7623 5127

http://www.ipa.uk.com

Association of Chartered Certified Accountants

Professional Conduct Department

10 & 11 Lincoln's Inn Fields

London

WC2A 3BP

Tel: 020 7059 5917 Fax: 020 7059 6858

http://www.acca.org.uk

Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland

CA House,

21 Haymarket Yard

Edinburgh

EH12 5BH

Tel: 0131 347 0100 Fax: 0131 347 0105

http://www.icas.org.uk

Chartered Accountants Ireland

Chartered Accountants Regulatory Board

The Linen Hall

32-38 Linen Hall Street

Belfast

BT2 8BG

Tel: 028 9032 1600 Fax: 028 9023 0071

http://www.icai.ie

Law Society

Education and Policy Unit

Solicitors Regulation Authority,

Ipsley Court

Berrington Close

Redditch

B98 0TD.

Tel: 01926 820082 Fax: 01926 431435

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk

Law Society of Scotland

The Law Society's Hall

26 Drumsheugh Gardens

Edinburgh

EH3 7YR

Tel: 0131 226 7411 Fax: 0131 225 2934

http://www.lawscot.org.uk

Plus the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS)

Insolvency Practitioner Unit

The Insolvency Service

4th Floor

Cannon House

18 Priory Queensway

Birmingham, B4 6BS

[Johno100]

Who regulates the trustee etc.If there is a complaint who do you go to.

See my reply above.

 

I can't believe i am the only person who has ever come across this situation.

The fact that the trustee can wait until a property has gone up in value then come out of the woods to make a claim on the basis their charges are now 'x amount' and that the house is to be sold or find the money is wrong.

I know things have changed somewhat now but that doesn't address what has gone on prior to these new laws and time frame in bankruptcy.

Anyone out there?

I agree that prior to the changes made in the Enterprise Act 2002 there was too much of an onous on the Bankrupt to be proactive, approach the OR and seek the re-assignment of his/her benefical interest in the property early in the bankruptcy. The OR / Insolvency Service will say that Bankrupts were given leaflets at the making of the order that explained that the beneficial interest would vest in the OR until it is was dealt with and it was therefore the bankrupt's fault they did nothing.

 

I would add that you might be mis-directing your disatisfaction. On the basis your interest in the property was your only asset then your file would have sat on the OR's shelf only occasionally being reviewed until there was sufficient equity to warrant the appointment of an Insolvency Practitioner (your Trustee). His/her job would simply have been to act on what the OR said was the asset that needed realising and realise it.

[mlp123]

Ok.

Made bankrupt go into the OR office nextday and say can you look into my interest in property i own,

i have negative equity but wish to have all matters regarding my property dealt today so that file can be closed.

Some how i think he will say 'not today thanks as its not in OUR best interest'or words to those affects.

Lets face it he won't until it suits his interest and not that of the bankrupt?

And thats my concern especially as the amount owed was so low originally.

[Johno100]

If you had gone into the OR's office the next day and HMRC were the only creditor for £3,000 (you have not confirmed this) then you would have been advised to get your money together and apply to court for an annulment, all done and dusted in a few weeks.

 

You do realise the OR is an officer of the court and not a commercial enterprise and that until 2009 a scheme operated where the spouse or partner of a bankrupt who’s home was in negative equity could acquire the interest for a nominal £1.00 (plus conveyancing costs)? Perhaps if you had gone to the OR's office you would have found out about this.

It's never a good idea to re-fight old battles.

[mlp123]

Thats my point offered to pay as money to cover was in account. OR office said it was to late.

Its the advice from the OR offices which caused the situation ,thats is why i'm saying it was wrong.

There was no battle as you put it as i accepted wrong advice which is why i'm anoid and why i feel

something should be done.

[Johno100]

Thats my point offered to pay as money to cover was in account. OR office said it was to late.;Its the advice from the OR offices which caused the situation ,thats is why i'm saying it was wrong. There was no battle as you put it as i accepted wrong advice which is why i'm anoid and why i feel something should be done.

Well here's how to make a complaint to The Insolvency Service about the bad advice you were given. http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/pdfs/guidanceleafletspdf/complaints.pdf Please come back and tell everybody what response you receive.

[debtinfo]

you still have not answered the questions i asked, without that it is very difficult to give you any info, Also for the record the letter you get from the OR at the start of the bankruptcy usually gives details about what you should do if you want the bankruptcy cancelled, i presume you read all this info thouroughly, Also it is not for the OR to advise about annulments, their job is to proceed with the bankruptcy at the order of the court, it for you to seek your own advive and start any annulment action yourself

[mlp123]

One creditor inland revenue £3000.

In proceeding with a bankrupcty i would hope the OR to be an informed and compentant person in all aspects involving

such a case or file.If such a person cannot answer a question honestly ie 'can i pay what is owed' i feel its this persons duty to

answer correctly irrespective of what he or she does.When someone in that position says' its too late' i took it as been too late.

Now is this just the same as our old friends the bankers.

Accountability seems only to work oneway???

[debtinfo]

well they were right if you simply asked can i pay what is owed as you cant, it was to late the bankruptcy had been made, as i said above the OR is simply appointe dby the court to do a specific job, they are not allowed to advise you, you had to seek your own advice.

 

Leaving that aside getting back to the original question, you cant just say, that was a lot of money, i am unhappy.

 

What you need to do if you are going to challange it is find out what specifically you thing they have done wrong, The IP is alot to be very expensive, it is part of the job, they are also allowed to keep the property until it gains value, again all within the law. What you need is a breakdown of the charges to see if anything was charged for that was not done, or anything was done that was not needed to be done, the rates that they charged are they inline with stadard practce etc.

[mlp123]

My main point is I SHOULD HAVE EVERY RIGHT to challenge something unjust

Look the bottom line is the system was wrong that is why it changed.Been self regulated also

adds to the problem.As johno100 has pointed out in his list.I have no problem with OR apart from

who he appointed as trustee and not telling me the truth which was i could have maybe got things overturned.

However the reality is he probably wouldn't have got his nice christmas hamper if he had?

The trustee is the people i have issue with.Simple case file no complications involving all different parties.One creditor come on

£30k.Jesus people go on about bankers and pro footballers!

It would be ok for someone just to say yes you are right but unfortunately there is not much you can do.

That i could live with but for people to say there job demands these kind of fee's etc well sorry that i can't except.

[debtinfo]

If you actually read my post, you will see that i was saying that you do have every right to challange the fees, all you need to do is apply to court, yu just have to make sure that you are applying on grounds where you might win not just on the fact that the amount is alot, you will never win just saying that

[mlp123]

If the playing field was fair then i wouldn't be on here trying to get advice.

The courts appoint these people,they are self regulated,they are part and parcel of the inner establishment.

This is all that really is coming across.

I suppose i'm looking for someone who can point me in the right direction and be able to bring forth a case which wouldn't be cut down straight away.

[Johno100]

If the playing field was fair then i wouldn't be on here trying to get advice.

The courts appoint these people,they are self regulated,they are part and parcel of the inner establishment.

 

Appoint which people? Your private sector Insolvency Practitioner would have been appointed by the Secretary of State from a rota following an application made by the OR.

 

"Inner establishment":roll: I think I am beginning to get the picture and seeing why the simple realisation of the equity in your property was so costly.

 

Out of interest what year were you made bankrupt?

[mlp123]

Ah! Sorry have i upset someone.

Shouldn't have said 'inner establishment'.How about untouchable that should be better.

Unfortunatley these things do exist as many people come to realise not so long ago(Bank charges).

The property didn't need realisation as you put it,at the start of everything there was money to cover what was originally owed.

The property didn't come into it because it was no use to him as there was nil equity in it and the debt at the time didn't warrant the property been sold.

The Trustee waited until property went up in value then proceeded saying more money was then owed.(which incidently is due to his costs etc).

Now you will say you can complain by getting in contact with the above list.I'm just saying i don't feel very confident i would get a fair listen to.

Would you?Maybe asking wrong person?

Don't get me wrong i appreciate your comments.

[debtinfo]

BTW, the creditors choose who is appointed as IP.

 

As i keep saying you are not going to get anywhere by complaining about things that they are allowed to do, it is clear that you do not understand the system. You can only challange if they have done something wrong (which is what you need to find out), it does not matter one jot if you agree with the system or not, you are just wasting your energy and our time. I would suggest that if you really do have a valid complaint that you ask the trustee for a breakdown of their costs and that you seek some proffesional advice from a solicitor as to whether they are within the law or not

[mlp123]

The system changed.One amendment was that a property had to be realised within 3 years time period.

By doing this surley they are saying other system was flawed?

Oh and sorry for wasting your time.

All you needed to say from the start of post was 'no i don't know the answer and seek legal advice from a solicitor '

in doing so you would have done us both a favour.The post was started to attract people with knowledge and understanding of how

to challange such things.Look it might be a case of forgeting about it but at the end of the day when you feel you have been ripped off just because thats the way it is

thats not good enough.Remember the law changed.Why?

[debtinfo]

no they are not in anyway saying the old system was flawed, the rules change every year, sometimes small things sometimes large things, sometimes they affect you sometimes they dont (and you probably dont even hear about those ones). The system changes to match whatever the political mood is at that time, sometimes it benefits the bankrupts sometimes it makes the rules tighter. The fact is that you have to abide by whatever the rules were on your bankruptcy date. I have already told you where you need to start and that is by getting a copy of what the trustee's charges were, it seems to me that you dont actually want to do anything, you just want to bitch and moan and have everyone agree with you.

 

I do want to ask you one question, the debt was for tax, you make a big point of saying you had the mone in the bank and it was all a huge mistake, my question therefore is, how long was it from when the tax year ended and the money became owed and when you were made bankrupt, why didnt you just pay them?

[toddle2u]

t seems to me that you dont actually want to do anything, you just want to bitch and moan and have everyone agree with you.

 

Couldn't have put it better myself. The OP has come on here delayed answering any of the questions debtinfo or others has asked him to get a clearer picture and then slaggedd them off when he doesn't get the answers he wants to hear.

 

OP you have been given good practical advice but you don't want to hear it. If you are that incensed by it get off your arse and do somethin about it. The best placee to start would be a specialist insolvency lawyer. Personally I think you would be throwing good money after bad