Starting up my own DMP from scratch...

[Tingy]

I suspect that eventually you'll get a letter back saying you forgot to enclose the statutory payment. I've done it a few times! I believe it's called premature dementia - glad I'm not the only one suffering from it! lol

 

Have Littlewoods passed it on, or do they still have it? Again the Lending Code can be used with them and if they reply with anything nasty then we give them a gentle reminder they're committing a criminal offence through CPUTR and could serve two years in prison!

[baz1986]

Yeah well this is when it get interesting with little woods well now very. They have sold £405 to NDR Money Monkeys but then once ive paid them off i will go back to very and pay the amount left after i have payed NDR MONEY.. I rang NDR money today and said listen you gave me a 4 month plan to pay back £84.00 every month i payed last month on 28th when i got payed which was ideal then this month is the 23rd then next month 19th of the month, I said hang on a minute this aint even 4 weeks between each, I said i need to change the payments dates, Women was so rude said we cannot do it, i said well i crnt pay she said well you will just get charged £12 every month for next 3 months then... Makes me mad that i am wanting to pay my dues and they treat me like a criminal, yet how many hundreds of thousands of people don't even make an effort to pay back what they owe... But tomorrow is another day and another challenge!!

PS- The link you sent me i have cut and paste in a letter to send to my other best friends at NDR Money

[Tingy]

I can't see a problem there. All you need to do is phone her again and ask her if she would put this in writing - if you've anyway at all of recording the conversation that would be even better. There is no way they should put that in writing, and if they do, then you can really hit them - a judge would string her up by her balls if she had any. In fact, by the sounds of it I wouldn't be surprised if she has!

 

If they refuse to put it in writing, then write to them with your reasonable payment offer and say it will be being paid on the xth of each month and you assume they are accepting it unless they write back refusing it accompanied with a solid reason bearing in mind.... and then you start quoting a few bits of legislation. Hopefully job done.

[baz1986]

Yeah good shout mate, it was her tone on the phone like those dates were set in stone and that was that, with my creditors i am more at a mind of taking them all the way, with it being in my Dads name i am more cautious tbh. But yes will ring them back first thing in the morning and ask them to send what she told me in a letter so i can then take it further.. Is it normal Tingy to use a debt collector for only a bit of the amount of the balance and then send me back through very.. Very confusing but i suppose it is a in house thing!!

 

Tingy answer me this if you can lol, why is it legal to have in house debt collectors when they are the same company and even in the same building?

[Tingy]

Have to say I've never heard of a company farming out part of a debt before. Makes me wonder if it's something to do with charging interest in their terms and conditions.

 

As regards your last question they would I think claim that it gives them immediate access to quality legal advice. That explains why all these in house DCA's are so much better than the rest then! It is ridiculous, but no mre ridiculous than getting threatening letters for the same from say Lowells, Hamptons and Red knowing they're all the same company. If ever there was a case for using misleading actions under CPUTR I think this should come high up the list. Never actually thought of that before - might try it now.

[baz1986]

Sorry what does that mean CPUTR? oh yeah they are still charging me interest, On the statements they send me its exactly the same format but instead of very logo it got NDR money logo, If i get a letter back from NDR i will scan it on here

Just watching see you in court on BBC, it is really good but the money these people have to spend just to take on the big firms is crazy

 

My next creditor i have to take on is Argos but i wont be starting that until the weekend when i have a fresh mind and do some more reading on threads!!

 

What are you going to use the CPUTR for

[Tingy]

Unless you want a VERY late night I'd leave reading this till tomorrow. CPUTR 2008 stands for Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. It is a very very powerful piece of legislation for the simple reason that many actions frequently taken by DCA's such as threatening letters, harassment, threatening to do things they can't actually do (doorstep visits without your consent, court procedures if they only have an equitable assignment not an absolute assignment etc...) etc... are turned into criminal (not civil) ofences for which they can receive a hefty fine, a prison sentence and I think loss of license.

 

You can read it here, but be warned that you need to get used to the language - it is not very user friendly:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2008/9780110811574/contents

 

I find the useful bits 3-7 and then these are turned into offences in 8-13, and Schedule One.

 

If you want to see a letter I wrote based on CPUTR have a look below (the first uses just CPUTR, the 2nd The Lending Code and CPUTR):

 

Dear Sir / Madam,

 

Your Ref: abcd1234

 

I am writing in response to your later dater dd/mm/yyyy which I find grossly offensive and patronising as well as being full of threats which I believe shows a massive understanding of the law regarding debt collection in the United Kingdom. By the time you finish reading this letter you will realise your licence to trade is in serious danger of being revoked and I look forward to your proposed response to that.

 

Before I start my complaint about the letter, I would be grateful if you could provide me with a full breakdown of fees which explains clearly how the alleged debt has risen from around £140.00 to the £402.54 you are now demanding.

 

The rest of my letter will focus on just four lines of writing under the heading, “Our Intentions.” To save you the effort of looking out the letter I will quote the paragraph word for word below:

 

“We have a copy of your credit file and are currently in the process of obtaining your employment details. Once we have this information, we will be in a position to make a decision as to whether to use courts to recover what you owe; serve you with a Statutory Demand (if your account meets certain criteria) or arrange for a debt collection agent to visit you at home to discuss payment.”

 

It is hard to believe that this paragraph has been scribed by somebody whose supposed expertise is in the collection of debts.

 

To start with, may I point out to you the existence of a law called, “The Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading Regulations 2008” (CPUTR 2008-). As you appear to be unaware of the existence of this piece of legislation, you can find it at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/...11574/contents on the internet.

 

The paragraph quoted above is in serious breach of these regulations. I have not by any means tried to pick out all areas where you are in breach, but would like to draw your attention to the following sections:

 

S7ss 1b where you are clearly trying to make me make a transactional decision I may not otherwise have taken.

 

Far more serious for you is your very clear and extremely serious breach of S7ss 2a,b,c and e. I don’t intend patronising you by quoting the legislation direct, however I am sure you are capable of looking it up for yourselves. I am referring to the use of harassment and undue influence. I am sure you will agree when you read them that you are quite clearly in breach of the legislation.

 

If you now refer to Section 11 it states, “A trader is guilty of an offence if he engages in a commercial practice which is aggressive under regulation 7. I am sure again I do not need to point out to you that when it mentions the word offence, it is not referring to a civil offence, but is saying you are committing a criminal offence as a result of which you could lose your licence to trade.

 

Is the paragraph quoted at the start aggressive under regulation 7?

 

Well, there is a clearly implied threat in stating you have a copy of my credit file and that you are in the process of obtaining my employment details. The latter statement in particular has caused me great distress as I am now not surprisingly concerned that my private business is about to be made public to my employers which could possibly result in me losing my job.

 

You then go on to say that once you have that information, you will be in a position to make a decision as to whether to use courts to recover what I allegedly owe – this again is a highly distressing threat, but having sought legal advice I am informed that unless you have an absolute assignment of this debt, and I have received no Notice of Assignment at all, so I have to assume the assignment is an equitable one, then you are not actually able to take me to court without doing so in collusion with the Original Creditor.

 

Next you say you will serve me with a Statutory Demand if my account meets certain criteria. As you have mentioned it, I have to assume my account does meet these criteria as otherwise mentioning it would again just be another cruel and aggressive threat which you cannot carry out in reality.

 

Finally you say you will arrange for a debt collection agent visit to me at home to discuss payment. Again I would point out that any visit by a debt collector to a debtors house may only be carried out by mutual consent. You cannot arrange it, you can merely ask whether I would agree to it. I will tell you now that the answer to that would be no I do not. So again you are making aggressive threats which yet again you cannot actually carry out.

 

So, in summary, in three and a half lines of writing, you have clearly committed four criminal offences, any one of which could result in you having your licence to trade withdrawn.

 

Finally I would like to refer you to Schedule One Section 12 which refers to you making materially inaccurate claims concerning the nature and extent of the risk to myself if I do not give in to the threats made in your letter. This is just one of a list of 31 criminal offences which again you have committed, I will not at present outline the others, I will save those for when you take me to court as you have threatened to do.

 

I shall now be passing all this information to both the police as it is a criminal, not a civil matter and to the OFT for them to consider whether or not you are considered a fit institution to be licensed for the purposes of collecting debts.

 

I could go on and mention the OFT’s own guidance, but have decided instead to enclose a copy of the relevant part of this. You will see that you seem to be more in breach of this guidance than in compliance with it.

 

I would like to finish by asking you under CPUTR a series of questions. Please remember that these could well end up being used in a court of law. You are legally obliged to answer them honestly and truthfully, and in a Court of Law would be put to strict proof that your answers are honest and truthful:

 

1. Do you have an absolute assignment of this alleged debt?

 

2. Will you be contacting my employers, or was that just a threat?

 

3. Can you (by yourselves, without the original creditor) take me to court?

 

4. If the answer to 3 is “no,” why did you make this threat when you cannot carry out the action?

 

5. Does my account meet the criteria for issuing me with a Statutory Demand?

 

6. If the answer to 5 is “no,” why did you put that in your letter other than as an aggressive threat?

 

7. Can you unilaterally arrange for a debt collector to visit my house or do you need my agreement for this?

 

8. Do you currently hold, or have you ever held an executable agreement for this alleged debt?

 

Note well that to not pay a debt is a civil matter. However, to mislead a debtor by deception into making a financial transaction is actually A CRIMINAL OFFENCE under CPUTR 2008.

 

Given the gravity of this situation, I feel that this debt is best placed into dispute with immediate effect, and that no further collection activity be carried out by either yourselves or the original creditor until such time as ALL criminal investigations have been concluded.

 

If you still hold a licence to trade at this time, then I shall of course give full co-operation in establishing that this debt is indeed mine and then arranging a suitable and affordable repayment plan.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

 

LETTER TWO

Dear Sir,

 

Thank you for your letter dated dd/mm/yyyy. I am very disappointed that despite enclosing a copy of my Income and Expenditure form which makes it quite clear I am going through a period of financial difficulty, you have replied with such a threatening letter insisting that I reduce my balance to below my credit limit or you you will either visit my home to discuss hoe I can pay or issue a Default Notice demanding payment of the full amount owing.

 

Perhaps I can unpick those three issues one at a time, bearing in mind I have maintained what I can reasonably afford and always maintained communication with you.

 

Your first statement says, "FINAL DEMAND

You must phone us within 72 hours of receipt of this letter to pay or discuss how you intend to pay your overdue credit card payment.

Your payment must be at least the amount due stated above and it must reduce your balance to below your credit limit."

 

The Lending Code states that where people are suffering financial difficulty:

 

137.

Subscribers should be sympathetic and positive when considering a customer’s financial difficulties. Although there is an onus on customers to try to help themselves, the first step, when a subscriber becomes aware of a customer’s financial difficulties, should be to try to contact the customer to discuss the matter. This applies to both personal and micro-enterprise customers.

138.

Personal customers should be considered to be in financial difficulty when income is insufficient to cover reasonable living expenses and meet financial commitments as they become due.

Repayment plans

146.

The subscriber should explore a range of options with the customer. Usually this will require the customer to disclose to the subscriber details of their income, expenditure, assets and liabilities, including amounts (if any) owed to other creditors. This information will be used to develop a plan for dealing with the liabilities. In cases where there are liabilities to multiple creditors, subscribers should recommend a free money advice service.

147.

The initial arrangements for repaying the debt should be in writing or other durable medium. This will not always be treated as a formal debt management plan, and there may be departures from this plan, if it is in the interests of subscribers and customers. There is no need for every small departure from the basic plan to be in writing (for example an agreement to accept a lower repayment for one week), but any amendments that change the fundamental nature of the plan should be in writing. If, at the subscriber’s discretion, the plan includes an agreement to accept smaller repayments, the subscriber should tell the customer whether this is regarded as ‘falling behind with repayments’ and whether information will be passed to Credit Reference Agencies.

148.

Repayment plans between subscribers and customers may be subject to regular review. Any review period will be agreed with the customer or their adviser, and subscribers should seek to revise contributions only at the end of the review period or if a customer’s personal circumstances change.

Token offers and write offs

165.

Token offers may be accepted where the customer has demonstrated they have no surplus income available for their ‘non-priority’ creditors and there is a realistic prospect of the customer's circumstances improving. A token offer will not necessarily be sufficient to prevent the subscriber from selling the debt to a third party debt recovery agent and to prevent the debt from being registered as a default with the credit reference agencies.

166.

Where the subscriber considers the customer’s personal and financial circumstances to be exceptional and unlikely to improve, the subscriber may, among other options, consider writing off or not pursuing part or all of the customer’s debt(s). Where write-off is requested by a customer or adviser but is not considered appropriate by the subscriber, the subscriber must give their reasons in writing. If the subscriber agrees to a write-off, then the debt may be registered as a default with the credit reference agencies.

 

I would be interested to know your view on how your latest letter to me fits alongside the code to which you have subscribed. I am frankly shocked that you subscribe to regulations that came in as recently as February 1st 2011, and yet you appear to have forgotten its existence already. Perhaps now you have been reminded of the regualtions you might like to consider rephrasing your first response.

 

The second threat is of a visit to my house. I am sure that you are aware that this is actually illegal. You have no right whatsoever to visit me at my house without agreeing an appointment with me in advance. I can inform you now that I will not consent to this under the present circumstances.

 

Your final threat is of a Default Notice. Again I refer you to the issues quoted above from the lending code.

 

In addition to the points made above, may I also remind you of the Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR 2008-). In Part Two Section 7, sub-section 2 under the heading Aggressive Commercial Praactices, you will see it states you should not make threats to customers.

 

If you then refer to Section 11, you will see that by making threats you are committing an offence. May I remiind you that this is a criminal offence, not a civil one, and one for which you could lose your licence to trade.

 

I think that deals with the three points made in your letter and shows either a very unfortunate lack of knowledge of the law and regulations governing your industry, or at worse an intentional disregard for the law and regulations which obviously causes me sufficient concern to feel the need to report you to the relevant authorities.

 

Finally may I ask, bearing in mind the Lending Code which is readily available on line if you do not have a copy of it, that you freeze all interest and charges and accept my repayment of £13 per month which is the sum affordable to me. It is only due to your charges that I have gone over my credit limit - perhaps you would consider as a goodwill gesture refunding these charges so I am below my credit limit again. When interest and charges are frozen I will then be reducing my balance to you each month rather than seeing it increase despite my best efforts to repay you.

 

I enclose this month's payment of £13.00 and look forward to a prompt reply to this letter confirming the freezing of interest and charges, acceptance of my repayment offer and a goodwill gesture of refunded charges due to the distress caused by this letter which breaches many of your indusry's rules and regulations. I have quoted just two.

 

Yours faithfully,

[baz1986]

Great work Tingy will deffo be using that sooon, Checked my track and trace for my CCA to very and so annoyed because it states that it hasn't been delivered yet but send it on 28th March

[Tingy]

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/OFT1272.pdf

 

You might like to read this as well. It's a very readable interpretation of CPUTR by the OFT published October 2010.

 

Hope you don't mind, but I referred someone else to this thread earlier as they're thinking of doing what you're doing. Hopefully it will inspire them to go for it!

[baz1986]

No worries at all Tingy, The more we can help and others can help us the better for a better chance to take on these big companies!!

 

I forget now if you had any thoughts on halifax offering me to reshedule my loan over a longer period of time and so i pay a lower amount and it stops me defaulting and being charged every month? You got any back ground on this and or is it just another rip from my favorite bank of the year for the 3rd year running (2009/2009/2011)

[Tingy]

Hi Baz,

 

No, I don't think you did ask that. I assume you are paying Halifax the full payment at the moment. The way I look at things is very simple. If you do a they want you to, then eventually you will pay more interest and they will make more money, so I doubt they're really doing it to help you, though it may look that way.

 

Many many times I have changed my payment date to suit when my money goes into my bank. It means you may have to pay a bit extra for one month, but is very common practice and I can't see why they can't just do this.

 

If the lower payments would suitmyou and you cannot negotiate that through using bits of The Lending Code, then fair enough - it has to be your decision ultimately; If however you can afford what you're paying but just want the payment date changed ask them to do that.

[baz1986]

with Halifax i am paying them reduced amount of £110 this was arranged with cccs but what they didn't do was stop the interest and still wont so i pay them £93 of interest so £17 goes off my loan so in the last 6 months i have given them £660 and only like £102 has come off the loan amount, they wont stop interest so this is why they suggested the reschedule, i asked them to write to me confirming they will not stop interest and that they are not prepared to help me etc etc so i can take this to fos and in the mean time give them £10 per month, oh yeah i forgot to mention i am £980 in arrears due to paying reduced amount and they want to add that to the reschedule

 

Above is the reason i call Halifax my favorite bank!

[Tingy]

Baz,

 

This is a very personal question, so you may want to pm me the answer (let me send you a pm first) but what is your disposable income after all your outgoings? Don't worry if it's in the red I'm not asking to judge, I'm asking so I can try to give the best advice!

[Tingy]

Thank you!

 

The OFT Debt Collection Guidance has some useful bits in it about charges which may be useful, and their actions are certainly against the spirit of all debt collection guidance. I think you should point this out to them along with the fact that at this rate the debt is almost never going to be paid off despite your best efforts. I would consider involving the OFT and would also consider asking again for them to freeze all interest and state that if they refuse again, knowing they are going directly against all legal guidance on debt collection, then you will reduce your payment to a token payment and they can take you to court where a judge would decide what is reasonable on the evidence provided. It is highly unlikely any judge would insist on you paying that amount each month when only £17 actually goes towards the debt - it is appalling.

 

Don't be afraid of the courts, the DCA's are not in their good books at the moment and the law is on the whole moving far more towards protecting the consumer. It has to if the country is ever going to get out of the horrendous debt it is in, so I can't see it changing for a while!

[baz1986]

Yeah cheers once again mate, Tbh is it wrong to just want them to send me in writing that they are not going to help and just pay them £10 and then hope they will try and take me to court or in the end see sense and come to an agrrement or at best offer a F+F? Or is that just playing it a bit to close for comfort?

[Tingy]

As long as you've written to them a couple of times asking them to freeze, then asking them to reconsider and you have proof of postage, then you don't need anything from them, that is all you need should they take you to court. If £10 is what you have worked out you can pay, then pay them that for the moment and see what happens. If they still keep charging interest so the debt is actually growing, then I would seriously consider stopping paying them, or a token payment of £1 per month explaining why - then they are more likely to take you to court and they'll be muurdered by the judge!

 

Don't know whether you've read them, but there are a few people on here saying Halifax are the worst people to deal with.

[baz1986]

Yeah well i have asked the nations favorite bank to confirm to me in writing that they are not prepared to help in my situation, so they said that it will be with me in the next 7 days, they were very reluntant to give me their details to set up standing order but did..

 

Rang NDR today and as you suggested asked them about a valid reason not to change date and now they have changed tune and told me to ring back on the 28th and they will be able to look at the dates, think i didnt want to send me any letters confirming this...And before you give me a lecture i once again broke the golden rule...NO PHONE CALL

 

Last bit of good no GREAT news is that i have had me first 2 F+F accepted from MBNA and Virgin

 

Balance of MBNA £2810 agreed settlement is £900 and Virgin £2165 agreed settlement is £700, think it works out at 35% they are writing to me to confirm in writing and that i have 60 days to pay it... Chuffed to bit it will save me about 3k, Only down side is they will only put it as partially settled, So you know me i am now going to pester them as i have 60 days to get them to agree on a settled

 

all this before 11am then i had to head off to work lol

 

 

[Tingy]

Is that all you managed before work? How lazy!

 

Seriously that is some achievement. As you will have seen I have been singing you praises around the internet so prepare to be inundated with questions. 35% - that would mean I only need just over £20000 to settle my debt. How are you fixed for a small loan?

[baz1986]

Lol i know this has slowly taken over my life atm, but it makes me feel good about myself, Like i told you before i was in a terrible state back 2 or 3 months ago thinking i will always be in debt, i still have a long way to go but i love the fact that the support of you guys and the ability to get the big players play fair is a bit of a buzz..

 

I cannot believe though that they have agreed to settle so quickly my account has only been on a repayment plan for 4 months so was utterly surprised when they accepted at 35%, What do you think my chances are of getting them to put a settled on my file? slim to none?

 

Oh yeah did forget to tell you i had a email today from FML loans telling me that thanks for contacting us regarding a loan i am pleased to tell you that we will be sending you a application for you and your guranteer to sing and money will be into account within 48 hours GUARANTEED 3K and the interest is only 52%, God its a wounder people get so much in debt when crooks like these rip you off and pester you

 

Looks like you have been busy posting today to people, Any new happening or any thing useful you have for me?

[Tingy]

Always have useful stuff stored away, but never know what it is until someone asks for it and then I think, "Ah yes, they need x,y aand z!"

 

Actually been busy cocking up earlier today - really was not with it and posted utter carp!

[baz1986]

lol i cannot believe that you always post useful crap to me that i always use lol, maybe you need a day off lol, My day off is going to be tomorrow got work and after that not even going to turn my laptop on..

 

Did you have any thought on me going for a settled from mbna rather than a partial? Any cases you know where they have done this?

[Tingy]

I don't think there's any harm in asking. If you don't ask you don't get. I don't actually know of any cases where they've marked it as settled, but at least you know it will drop off your credit file. In terms of legislation (next bit of crap!) your best bet is to use the Data Protection Act. It has eight underlying fundamental principles which are enforceable. They appear right up near the start of it. One of these is that data should only be kept for as long as necessary. You could try the argument that as you have agreed a full and final settlement six years is too long, so would they either mark it as settled or partially settled for say two years. TBH though, I wouldn't get your hopes up.

[baz1986]

Well ill give it a try it will be worth the postage stamp, and yeah good shout putting in about the data protection act, Lets see how creative i get now tomorrow morning well maybe saturday morning, My hopes will always be high until i get knocked back lol!!

 

Will need your help again soon with some letters that will be sending to Argos and NDR money!!

 

 

[baz1986]

Oh the joys.. Capital One ringing me every day 4 times a day and ringing my work....BORING

[Tingy]

Are you aware there's a telephone harassment letter on here. It's in the library somewhere. If you can't find it, I've got it saved to my computer so can easily post it up for you.