How do you find out who 'owns' alleged debts?

[A+]

Hi Y'all

 

Been on CAG for some time now, have around 20 alleged debts within the household. Have been playing CCA Tennis with them for at least 2-3 years now, which seems to have gone mostly like this:

 

DCA Admits no CCA present, or can't provide.

DCA continues to harrass and attempt collections

When threaten DCA with OFT etc, they pass back up chain to another (previous) DCA and so the game starts ALLLLL over again.

 

I am absolutely broke, and the only real option open to me is bankruptcy. I don't know why but despite many people advising me its the best route for me, and over many years now, I have never taken the plunge. I suppose it gripes me that I would probably have to go bankrupt for a sum which is probably at least DOUBLE the amount of the original claimed balances on these debts which are still failing to have any signed agreements evidencing them. Its annoying to think I will be logged as having gone BK for say £100,000 when the most anyone ever claimed I owed them was half that or less?! I suppose the principal of it has actually cost me because my health has suffered as a result of all this due to the time its been going on.

 

So.... before finally pulling the plug and taking the bankruptcy route to peace of mind, I have ONE possible avenue to sort my life out and wanted to run it by all you wonderful Caggers to see if it floats on here

 

Specifics aside, I would guess that out of say 20 creditors, 15-18 have no CCA and have admitted such, the others have failed to provide one but claim to have one (old CITI trick), and ONE has provided one (EGG) but I am sure its more than a little suspect having had it forensically analysed! Naughty Naughty EggyWeggy 8-)

 

So my idea is to NEGOTIATE. I dont want to go bankrupt and really do see it as the LAST resort. Therefore since none of these DCAs have CCAs and nor do the alleged original creditors, I am considering writing to them ALL in one go, offering a very very low amount to "clear my file" or as a "good will" payment to basically get them to leave me alone.

 

If I go ahead with this then the first step is to find out who really owns each of these accounts they write to me about. I have no idea how to do this as I have so many different DCAs in my records for each one. NONE have ever sent me a copy of a deed of assignment, in fact I would not know what one even looks like. So how do I know, if I were to offer let's say Scotcall £200 to foxtrot oscar and leave me alone, how do I know I am not just throwing £200 at some company without it making a difference, only to find another DCA starts writing to me about the same alleged account I thought I had just got closed with Scotcall? Hope that makes sense. In essence, I don't know how to go about getting a TRUE accurate picture of who owns these alleged accounts so I know I am talking to the horse's mouth?

 

Going back to the principal of my idea, in case anyone has comments or advice, IF I can achieve the above and get a list of those I need to speak to who actually own these alleged debts, I would the plan to write to them all stating that since they have not been in touch for some time and since they have written to me stating there is no agreement held on file due to the age of the "alleged" debts, I would like to see the matter come to an amicable conclusion and see an end to the damage of my reputation via my credit file, and therefore offer £xx

on the basis that they agree to wipe clean any bad reports on my credit file and desist from making any further entries etc.

 

The big problem will be finding ANY money to offer whatsoever but since the alternative is bankruptcy, I have decided its worth finding out if they will all take a very small offer to call it quits and if so, I will see if a relative or friend wants to help me avoid bankruptcy with a small loan.

 

That's about it from me, ANY comments or advice HUGELY appreciated. Thanks all for your time and keep on Cagging

[dx100uk]

no cca = no pay

 

simples forget them

 

dx

[Mr Worried]

Hi A+

 

Food for thought, however your going to get a possible loan from a friend to pay non cca debts? it is a massive task to get a F+F and if it is not done by the book then they will persist in hounding you.

 

Your debt is part of your life so you either learn to live with it, adjust, and adapt to communications from DCA'S or do what you feel is right.

 

I certainly understand your reasons for wanting to open up a can of worms, but IMO it wont work.

 

BR...ouch. really? only you have the reasons to decide, but as you have said..why BR for an amount that could be halfed by way of charges and fees?

 

Mr W

 

 

 

Hi Y'all

 

Been on CAG for some time now, have around 20 alleged debts within the household. Have been playing CCA Tennis with them for at least 2-3 years now, which seems to have gone mostly like this:

 

DCA Admits no CCA present, or can't provide.

DCA continues to harrass and attempt collections

When threaten DCA with OFT etc, they pass back up chain to another (previous) DCA and so the game starts ALLLLL over again.

 

I am absolutely broke, and the only real option open to me is bankruptcy. I don't know why but despite many people advising me its the best route for me, and over many years now, I have never taken the plunge. I suppose it gripes me that I would probably have to go bankrupt for a sum which is probably at least DOUBLE the amount of the original claimed balances on these debts which are still failing to have any signed agreements evidencing them. Its annoying to think I will be logged as having gone BK for say £100,000 when the most anyone ever claimed I owed them was half that or less?! I suppose the principal of it has actually cost me because my health has suffered as a result of all this due to the time its been going on.

 

So.... before finally pulling the plug and taking the bankruptcy route to peace of mind, I have ONE possible avenue to sort my life out and wanted to run it by all you wonderful Caggers to see if it floats on here

 

Specifics aside, I would guess that out of say 20 creditors, 15-18 have no CCA and have admitted such, the others have failed to provide one but claim to have one (old CITI trick), and ONE has provided one (EGG) but I am sure its more than a little suspect having had it forensically analysed! Naughty Naughty EggyWeggy 8-)

 

So my idea is to NEGOTIATE. I dont want to go bankrupt and really do see it as the LAST resort. Therefore since none of these DCAs have CCAs and nor do the alleged original creditors, I am considering writing to them ALL in one go, offering a very very low amount to "clear my file" or as a "good will" payment to basically get them to leave me alone.

 

If I go ahead with this then the first step is to find out who really owns each of these accounts they write to me about. I have no idea how to do this as I have so many different DCAs in my records for each one. NONE have ever sent me a copy of a deed of assignment, in fact I would not know what one even looks like. So how do I know, if I were to offer let's say Scotcall £200 to foxtrot oscar and leave me alone, how do I know I am not just throwing £200 at some company without it making a difference, only to find another DCA starts writing to me about the same alleged account I thought I had just got closed with Scotcall? Hope that makes sense. In essence, I don't know how to go about getting a TRUE accurate picture of who owns these alleged accounts so I know I am talking to the horse's mouth?

 

Going back to the principal of my idea, in case anyone has comments or advice, IF I can achieve the above and get a list of those I need to speak to who actually own these alleged debts, I would the plan to write to them all stating that since they have not been in touch for some time and since they have written to me stating there is no agreement held on file due to the age of the "alleged" debts, I would like to see the matter come to an amicable conclusion and see an end to the damage of my reputation via my credit file, and therefore offer £xx

on the basis that they agree to wipe clean any bad reports on my credit file and desist from making any further entries etc.

 

The big problem will be finding ANY money to offer whatsoever but since the alternative is bankruptcy, I have decided its worth finding out if they will all take a very small offer to call it quits and if so, I will see if a relative or friend wants to help me avoid bankruptcy with a small loan.

 

That's about it from me, ANY comments or advice HUGELY appreciated. Thanks all for your time and keep on Cagging

[MARTIN3030]

If you want to see specific info on exactly who owns what-easiest way is to get a copy of your credit file.

Well worth it for 2 quid,and should say there all you need to know.

[A+]

dx - errr.... thanks? You didn't seem to give any credence to exactly why i typed all that, If i was able to "simples forget it" then I would!

 

Mr Worried - Thanks very much. I know what you are saying and this is far from being an easy decision mainly because of the issues you raise. Out of interest, whilst it is complex and difficult to sort a concrete F&F, is it POSSIBLE? If so, any idea where to go for advice or letter templates to make it legally binding and protect me from ongoing harrassment? Having said that, I am NOT bothered about the harassment side of it, I can handle that, even more easily once I have a F&F and a letter confirming that it was all sorted! The reasons for me wanting to do this are far more complex and many people will disagree with me but its about where I think the world is going and FAST. I will explain further below in case its of use.

 

Martin - Thanks to you also. I have done this once before but HATED doing it because the information you have to provide when doing an Experian or Equifax self check is basically creating a path right to your door for creditors and I believe that they are notified or at least able to see that you did the check, and the address you had the information sent to. At present i have a comfy set up whereby I use a mailing address for all CC correspondence and DCA stuff, this has always given me and my family a bit of breathing space at the house where we live as we rarely get unwelcome visitors, but did once. I don't want that to start, my dogs don't either

Having said all that, I think the DCAs have recently clocked real home address and are now sending letters here so I suppose there isn't much to lose by doing it again and getting a copy of my file. Thanks again for your input

 

Reasons for doing this.......

 

OK, first things first, let me say I do not expect many to agree with me here and understand that beforehand!

 

It is my honest held belief that the world is about to melt down financially. Many people on CAG know fully about the sordid truth behind the monetary system, and many also know the global economy is in a right state, in no small part thanks to the bankers saddling US with debts so they can earn fat pay cheques and retire while we all struggle to meet payments or default. HOWEVER........... I believe when the dots are joined there is a much bigger and more worrying picture ahead.

 

One look back in history shows that DEBTORS PRISON used to exist. Without going into detail, and therefore at risk of being called a paranoid android by not providing the huge amount of detailed information there is to back this view up (in my opinion), I believe that when the poo hits the fan and the govt is broke (as many states are going in the US, as many Police Forces are close to NOW here in the UK, councils, companies, banks........ etc) there will be nobody to clean streets, to dig roads, to do all those little jobs that keep the country ticking over. BUT there WILL be a 5hit load of people in a 5hit load of debt, and the media/govt may well spin it (like they already have in right wing circles) to portray an image of bad debtors being the cause of all this trouble due to them being short sighted, greedy, lazy, or whatever else.

 

Rather than argue about whether this will or won't happen (and nobody knows, including me of course) let's just look at what if it does.....

 

Let's say the govt RIPS the bankruptcy legislation from under our feet overnight, and those kinds of changes always happen overnight without a chance to warn anyone as that will make it pointless. So the safety net of bankruptcy has gone, much like many other countries including the US where the debt remains with you for life. Then they need people to work but have no money to pay them, and us bad debtors are getting the blame for everything going wrong, who will they ask to "help" and 'repay their debt by working it off, or going inside'. Well this is not something i think WILL happen, but something I strongly believe could happen. I don't want to kick myself later.

 

Currently we have a superb bankruptcy system, which was put in place to ENTICE RISK and entice business growth. If the system wasn't there, the amount of growth would not have possible over recent decades simply because the risk would not have been taken by so many businessmen and women, many of whom made big successes of themselves and their companies, which boosted our economy.

 

With that system, I can currently lose my debt, even if more than half of it is BS and lies, and unfair or illegal charges by unscrupulous DCAs etc. Hard as it is to do it, its a lot easier than having the debt for the rest of my life while I have 3 young children, a wife, and a dream of having some semblance of a free life in the future!

 

As I said, it may sound paranoid without me spending a week writing down all the evidence of govt borrowing, Oil now being in short supply and only to get shorter which means major economy trouble, and not even mentioning Japan (which is about to blow I think), and you have a picture which makes my personal bankruptcy look like small fry compared to what's possibly around the corner for us all. Just out of interest on the nuclear note.... Chernobyl was ONE reactor. The US, UK, and Russian govt kept it secret for 20 years that the disaster was a drop in the ocean compared to what NEARLY happened, yet still it was a major disaster and radiation reach us here in the UK. If workers hadn't died to get tons of cement into tunnels they died to dig UNDER the reactor core which was burning, there would have been an explosion 100 times the size of Hiroshima and sufficient to QUOTE "WIPE OUT HALF OF EUROPE FOREVER". So...on that positive note, dare I mention that Japan has SIX reactors, one with 20 years of nuclear waste already burning on top of it!?!?!?!?1

 

Finally, its commonly accepted in all corridors of power that if Japan's economy collapses, so would the UK and the US due to the amount of links there are between the economies. Well so far I hear that many companies are ceasing production and will very likely go bust or close down, to name just a handful you may have heard of.... Toshiba, Hitachi, AIWA, Sharp, Sony, Canon, Suzuki, Nikon....... and many more you would have heard of.

 

So let's for a moment just assume that western economic arrogance is ill-founded and in fact it IS possible for our economies to fail and collapse, WHO provides the BILLIONS of pounds needed anually to look after the gazillions of nuclear reactors we now have all over the world, especially in France and the UK? Well, let's not even go there!!

 

Back to finance, so..... I don't want to find I could have got rid of my debt, even if half of it is BS, but didn't because I had the same arrogance everyone else had and just assumed our world is permanent and not subject to change even in the aftermath of a nuclear meltdown of gigantic proportions during a time of major global recession!!!

 

In short..... debt is the one thing which could pin me down and prevent my family being able to survive a major economic collapse. I see it as a cancer which could kill me and my family in years, or maybe even months to come. Hopefully, regardless of whether what i say is right or not, you can see why i am prepared to take what sounds like a drastic step but what to me is nothing at all.

 

I have no desire for any credit from 'banks' in the future, firstly I don't believe there will many and none will be lending anything like they have over recent decades, but secondly even if i am wrong and everything is hunkydory, I REFUSE to borrow a penny from them ever again and will live in a caravan if i must in order to avoid doing so

 

Well, that's about it from me! Please don't feel the need to pick bones in my argument as I am convinced we are about to hit a bump we haven't seen in our lifetimes, and nothing anyone says can undo the evidence I have seen to support this argument. I don't expect people to believe me, by the very nature of such things, most people SHOULD believe it won't happen, because if everyone believed it then the economy would have already melted!!!

 

Finally, considering what my views are and why I want to get out of debt at all cost, can anyone suggest how to go about F&F with these DCAs or is it really so difficult that I may as well not bother? I am sure these swines will make an agreement one day and pretend they didn't make it the next, i have seen many low tricks by them so nothing surprises me any more. I would need to get watertight agreements and signatures, presumably with the alleged Original Creditor OR the current owner of the debt (with deed of assignment to prove ownership). Is it possible at all?

 

Thanks again to everyone, and I truly believe that CAG will become even more valuable to many people like me in the troubled days to come.

 

No matter what its made of, every bubble bursts in the end, nothing grows forever and gets away with it permanently. Debtors will be the ones who pay the price of the fallout, I reckon so anyway.

[MARTIN3030]

Interesting points and views.

There is certainly a lot going on at the moment,which has got many looking at biblical prophecies/Nostradamus and more.

A lot depends on the performance of the $.

There was talk of Russia and China abandoning it in 2008/2009 but they resisted it.

Oil consumption has actually dipped as price becomes more expensive.Libya output only accounts for around 2% and the shortfall has already been picked up by other Opec countries increasing barrelage.

At the moment it seems that the worry is on Israel falling,which is a worry if some of these Middle East states form their own coalition.

I will send you a link for some interesting reading.

[Mr Worried]

WOW WEE.A+, I would remove all medication and sharp instruments from your home,, only joking.

 

I think your comments are Fantastic yet alarm me too, I think your decisions re your debt are being hindered by your thoughts and beliefs on the current economic state.

 

Nevertheless, great words, but I wont worry that much yet.

 

Mr

[Mr Worried]

Can I have the link too?

 

Ta

 

 

 

Interesting points and views.

There is certainly a lot going on at the moment,which has got many looking at biblical prophecies/Nostradamus and more.

A lot depends on the performance of the $.

There was talk of Russia and China abandoning it in 2008/2009 but they resisted it.

Oil consumption has actually dipped as price becomes more expensive.Libya output only accounts for around 2% and the shortfall has already been picked up by other Opec countries increasing barrelage.

At the moment it seems that the worry is on Israel falling,which is a worry if some of these Middle East states form their own coalition.

I will send you a link for some interesting reading.

[MARTIN3030]

Sure you can Mr.W.

[victoria_siempre]

Hi Mr W

 

I should be interested in your views on all this; I am slowly coming around to the anti fiat money viewpoint, however I think imminent prediction of the death of global capitalism is premature and is characteristic of socialist utopian ideology.

 

Sure, the days of dollar dominance are numbered; I can't see Israel failing though for military and political reasons.

 

x

 

v

[merlin100]

DX is right A+. I too understand the hassle you can get from these creeps so you certainly have my sympathies. But the most important thing to remember here is that you know most of them have no agreement - thats your strength, but if you go making offers to settle, to my mind you are weakening that position because it can be construed (in a court) that it is a partial admission. They would produce any settlement letter you sent them claiming it is an admission of the debt and therefore a CCA isnt required, and Im sure a Judge would look at it that way too.

Whilst youre not denying a debt exists, just the legal enforceability of it, knowing how courts operate these days, I really do think you could shoot yourself in the foot with this.

Even if you did get a couple of the DCAs to "accept" your offer, you would have to monitor them VERY carefully as Im sure you already know they cannot be trusted under ANY circunstances. You could quite easily pay a sum of money over, even with a promise that the debt will be then settled, only to find the remainder has been sold on to the next bunch of parasites.

With these people, it really pays to make it as damn hard for them as possible - they will not hesitate to do it to you.

[A+]

I do hate it when people throw you in a damn pigeon hole!! I don't sit alongside socialists and nod to everything, i think as ME and only me, but listen to all others who have any points to make so long as its got some evidence behind it.

 

Everyone needs to categorise things to make them palatable, I just don't bother with that any more. I am me, nowt else, and me thinks certain things, some of which fit in right wing boxes, some in left wing, some in feminist some in chauvanist some in lunatics......... etc

 

For me the underlying facts which cause me to think this way are mostly around energy, but also around financial and political conspiracies which are so well known now they are practically boring.

 

Oil - anybody reading this go get yourself infront of two charts. 1. Oil discovery and production chart, 2. Population growth. If you are really interested you can stick a 3rd chart infront of you too, one showing US or UK economic growth (or ANY other "undustrialized nation" for that matter, its all the same). Then look at the history of planet earth and human kind (population) all the way from apes up until OIL is discovered. Then look closely at what population did. Follow it (and watch economic chart too during same period of last couple of hundred years give or take).

 

Then, once you have hopefully seen that population (like any species) is directly proportional to the amount of FOOD (energy) a species has available in its habitat, go and look at OIL discovery charts versus USAGE charts for the last 20-30 years and you will see a very very significant change in the charts. USAGE explodes and continues to, despite discovery and production going down.

 

Look at any study done on any other species who's food source dwindles drastically and radically. It becomes violent and highly volatile, and in EVERY case - POPULATION DROPS. Its a no brainer, we just have problem when we try to apply it to OURSELVES!!

 

They are lying about increasing barrelage of oil, just plain lying like they did in Chernobyl, are doing in Japan (Pollen is the cause of the recent yellow rain, apparently?!)

 

Oil has been great while it lasted, but demand is now heavily exceeding production/discovery of new oil fields. Look at where your food comes from, not Devon or even closer to home, but foreign countries often thousands of miles away. take away oil and ask yourself how you will get it. Take oil away and you have no fertilizers or tractors to throw it on the fields. oh dear, take oil away and its lights out i am afraid!! Not for everyone, but for a hell of a lot of us. Fear in believing such huge concepts is not an excuse for ignorance of the facts. Put 100 wolves on an island where there is only enough food for 50, and one way or another half of them will die or more due to fighting, and thats assuming one big bad wolf doesn't want it all for himself and kills all the others! Sort of like bankers in a way isn't it!!

 

Food for thought, anyway i am back to sorting out my DCAs!!!

[A+]

Merlin, have just read your post, thank you VERY much. You mentioned something I had not thought of, of course I now see how a letter of offer would be seen as an acceptance of a debt owed. THANK YOU.

 

I suppose all that's left therefore is the decision on whether to go bankrupt or not. I suspect i will, but won't bother wasting my time with letter writing now, thanks again for your advice there.

[victoria_siempre]

Hi A+

 

I am sorry if I've caused offence; I did not intend to pidgeon-hole you: rather my comment to Mr W was a continuation of a conversation we were having a while ago.

 

I enjoy reading your posts; contradiction is the essence of the dialectic.

 

love

 

vic

[A+]

Vic you didn't cause offence, sorry if I made it sound like that. I respect your view and all views, I suppose my comment was to the world in general, because the world in general loves to follow a band wagon approach to anything most of the time and the idea of true free thinking is something which seems to be dying whilst the media and the PC brigade like to promote it as being on the up!!

 

Its a funny world this where the idea of freedom is far more prevalent than true freedom itself. Here is an example, you ask anyone in the pub or in an office HOW....... during the WTC 911 event, everything burned, in fact burned so hot that metal melted and brought down three buildings with two planes, and yet despite all of that someone happens to find both passports and copies of the Qu'Ran in totally legible and undamaged condition in the rubble of the disaster, and in the names of the alleged hijackers despite those hijackers being reliably witnessed and reported as being alive by large news networks in Pakistan, and you are suddenly a conspiracy theorist. Yet you mentioned no conspiracy!! I find this everywhere, I am not suggesting anything, I am merely asking about claimed FACTS. The fires in the 911 event were nowhere near as hot (according to all reports as well as satellite heat cameras) as the blue flame you have on your common gas hob, or on the burning heart of a coal fire. Yet both of these things sit on METAL which is cheaper, weaker and far less refined than the steel in the WTCs which were built to be indestructible, yet I am yet to see a cooker or fire grate melt down!?! If there are facts which explain these apparent anomolies then I am all ears, but it seems the problem is not the answers, its the very fact that anyone asks the question!! Instead of being addressed, instead of issues being looked at, PEOPLE are looking at instead and thus frightened away from uncomfortable questions by being haranged as nutters or whatever.

 

I have no idea where the world is going, but I do believe in the philosophy "Hope for the best, PLAN for the worst!" and as such I am making at least some basic plans for what I think will be the biggest change in human social history for centuries. I just turned the telly on and saw the protests about the cutbacks, whilst the newsman said "Police state that in general there have been no problems and everything is calm and peaceful with the protestors" i am watching footage showing people smashing police vehicles with sticks and lumps of scaffolding?!!!!! They don't even bother putting any effort into fooling us any more!!

[victoria_siempre]

Hi A+

 

You might have a look at

 

http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=in_the_back&article=122

 

whilst you're in the mood.

 

It's free if you're a subscriber to Eye.

 

'Despite appearances to the contrary, things are not always as they seem.'

 

x

 

v

[dx100uk]

why write two words when you can write 200............

 

no cca = no pay.

 

dx

[victoria_siempre]

Hi dx

 

It's nice to see that, after a slight team wobble, we're back on message: simples.

 

x

 

v

[A+]

why write two words when you can write 200............

 

no cca = no pay.

 

dx

 

 

Well here are a few possible answers to that question:

 

1. Its called conversation, you ought to try it some time.

 

2. No CCA = No Pay - could mean many different things, do NOT pay (imperative tense), you don't have to pay (helpful advice), i don't think you should pay (purely an opinion of yours being imparted), etc

 

3. Words are the bits which go around ambiguous strings of words, or in place of mathematical signs such as equals signs, all with the purpose of preventing the confusion shown above it 2.

 

I think 3 reasons should be enough, but since you don't like conversation I will assume your words are rhetorical and so this post won't interest you neither

 

For those others who still know what the word communication means, I have some creditors who DO have a CCA but haven't produced (as i explained in all those wasted words in my original post where 2 words would not have explained this complex situation i am in!), some creditors who may or may not (not sure) and some creditors who have admitted they do not hold CCAs. On top of that......... i have some alleged debts where original creditors claim there is a CCA yet a DCA claiming to now own the same alleged debt claims there IS a CCA!! Without wasting any more words... it's complicated and sometimes 2 words don't suffice, though I can think of times when 2 words suffice just perfectly

[A+]

Hi A+

 

You might have a look at

 

http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=in_the_back&article=122

 

whilst you're in the mood.

 

It's free if you're a subscriber to Eye.

 

'Despite appearances to the contrary, things are not always as they seem.'

 

x

 

v

 

Yes its interesting, especially since we trained Gadaffi in Aldershot and he got his social subversion and control training from our best buddies over the water. As it happens, we did the same with Saddam, Amin and god knows how many others. All a bit messy and gives me headaches, I think its just easiest to assume that anyone with any power or money will probably shaft you if they get the chance, anyone with both already has :D Unravelling their webs of deceit and mystery is probably the best way for them to keep you busy and 5 steps behind, what are they doing for TOMORROW, that's what worries me!!!

[victoria_siempre]

Hi A+

 

dx is a volunteer site team colleague and is one of the good guys who keep this wonderful site alive; I, for one, would be dead in the drink if it weren't for CAG and dx.

 

I agree our cousins behave strangely: they shafted us over lend lease; blackmailed us over Suez, but curiously support 'us' in Libya as we did them in Mesopotamia. It's a funny old world as Maggie said, but fear not, Dave assures us that 'we're all in this together'.

 

God bless

 

Love

 

vic

[Mr Worried]

OK Guys, we can waffle? we can discuss? we can have a political History lesson, non of which is irrelevant now ( IMHO ) myself and my mate George Galloway could really get involved ' of topic ' but we wont and we would like to cast our vote as ....post 2.. the rest as I have remarked is IRRELEVANT..oh IMHO of course.

 

Speak Monday

 

Mr ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

[Happyhippy1959]

whow A+ brilliant opinions,,,, given ye old hippy food for thought. Would need a few kilo's of the strange weed to have even thought of the end of our global world and species.

 

Serious, enjoyed the read and your bit about not ever again going for credit and living in a caravan if needing too. 100% with you on that one. It was strange though, the lady at CAB was a little surprised I was going to take on the DCA's now myself, should have informed her of this site. Lots of opinions and super people.