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ParaBellum

ParaBellum v GnatantiEast

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Somebody opened an account in my name and extracted just under 5K. Instead of involving the police the bank, which I will call GnatAntiEast, decided to remedy their mistake by suing me.

Following the advice on this site, which I have found very useful, I put in a CPR 31.14 request for the agreement. They offered to agree to extend the period for defence submission by 2 weeks AFTER I had the agreement. My questions are:

 

Does the defence period for submission deadline have an absolute maximum and if so what is it?

Would the court agree to a contingent extension?

Does the agreement returned have to have identity evidence that may have accompanied its original submission?

Can CPR 18 be used to expand details from the agreement while the track is undecided?

 

Especially in a case like mine, most of the evidence lies with the claimant, and usually in the small claims court, forcing disclosure is not an option. I noticed some discussion of 'Directions' as a proxy for disclosure at the Allocation of track stage.

How successful has that proved to be?

 

If 'Directions' prove not to be an option has anyone found using a counterclaim of defamation ( for > 5K) or harassment a useful tactic?

 

Finally some more general questions:

The chequebook/credit card/debit card was not delivered to my address. Is the bank so incompetent to permit collect of these items from the bank branch or have them delivered to some other address?

If the post office was used to redirect mail is there a database listing such diversions?

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I t would seem that the bank don't believe you and think that you are responsible

 

i would write to the bank re iterating any previous denial of involvement and tell them that you intend to make a formal complaint of fraud to your local police within the next 7 days and you want a 28 day extention to submit your defence- in order that you can submit police investigative evidence as to the banks culpability within your defence

 

if they do not agree you will apply to the court

 

then make an appointment to see the local CID and make your complaint in say a weeks time

 

a police investigation as to what the bank did and did not do in handing over funds to someone else can only benefit your defence if you are innocent of involvement

 

my guess is that if their case is a "try on" to see if you will blink- they will back down quicker than a liberal democrat ending tuition fees at the thought of having the police expose their lack of security

 

if they dont- then my friend they may well have some convincing evidence that leads them to believe that you are the culprit

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I had this a few years ago and I'm trying to wrack my brains to think how this was remidied. I recall the credit reference agency showed an 'associated address' check that out with Experian and Eqiufax. I was lucky, the Limited company of mine they used to extract information had just closed down so they (the crooks) did not run off with anything and were refused a credit card, but if you get your credit file you might be able to track the changes that were logged to prove your innocense. These are irritating to say the least, but dickydicky points to the fact that you are guilty until proved innocent as far as these companies are concerned. Just trace back, there are always footprints.

 

Good luck


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Hi,

Have you sent a Subject Access Request to the bank? If not I'd do that asap. (Link for SAR template in my blog linked below)

Also, did statements come through to your address for this account?

As above you need to establish the footprints, eg dates and types of transactions whereby you can demonstrate that you were not associated.

 

As this seems quite complex you really need to start your own thread in Legal Issues...then post the link in here...

 

 

Elsa


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Please check out my BLOG for the quick guide to debt threats - it has all the info & letter template links you need to get started on your journey of TAKING CONTROL. :roll:

 

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Hope this has helped or made you smile. Keep your chin up, you're among friends now! Elsa xxx

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Somebody opened an account in my name and extracted just under 5K. Instead of involving the police the bank, which I will call GnatAntiEast, decided to remedy their mistake by suing me.

Following the advice on this site, which I have found very useful, I put in a CPR 31.14 request for the agreement. They offered to agree to extend the period for defence submission by 2 weeks AFTER I had the agreement. My questions are:

 

Does the defence period for submission deadline have an absolute maximum and if so what is it?

Would the court agree to a contingent extension?

Does the agreement returned have to have identity evidence that may have accompanied its original submission?

Can CPR 18 be used to expand details from the agreement while the track is undecided?

 

Especially in a case like mine, most of the evidence lies with the claimant, and usually in the small claims court, forcing disclosure is not an option. I noticed some discussion of 'Directions' as a proxy for disclosure at the Allocation of track stage.

How successful has that proved to be?

 

If 'Directions' prove not to be an option has anyone found using a counterclaim of defamation ( for > 5K) or harassment a useful tactic?

 

Finally some more general questions:

The chequebook/credit card/debit card was not delivered to my address. Is the bank so incompetent to permit collect of these items from the bank branch or have them delivered to some other address?

If the post office was used to redirect mail is there a database listing such diversions?

 

Just to cover the points raised:

I have reported this to the police. The problem is that they do not regard me as an injured party and frankly didn't seem that interested. I told the bank I had reported the matter, giving crime number and contact details but they had the brass neck to came back saying that they had phoned but the

police weren't getting back to them! My feeling is that they fancy their chances with 'on the balance of probabilities' rather then 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

I did start the SAR route but as it is a identity theft case I do not have the correct signature. As I do not intend to give them id data that would bolster their case I am considering a notary. However if I

end up in the small claims track I believe they can refuse to divulge data; additionally they can

delay for 40 days.

I had no communication with the bank until letters demanding payment.

I will be checking my credit files.

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Preventing identity fraud

 

The Home Office Identity Fraud Steering Committee recommends that to reduce the risk of identity fraud when you move, use Royal Mail's redirection service to direct your mail from your old address to your new one for at least a year. Please view our customer checklist for full information before setting up your online redirection.


http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

 

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by patrickq1 are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional

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Be aware that the Royal Mail sell your new address data to the debt industry and credit reference agencies as 'part of the service to minimise the trouble for sutomers to inform all their creditors' yeah, right!

 

I found out when I lost my Nectar points card, not a credit card but a store points card. When I rang up Nectar for a new one they asked me if I wanted it sent to my current address or this other address which I vaguely remembered seeing on my credit file some 18 months before which I had thought was associated to a DCA or something like that given the troubles I'd been through at the time.

 

It was in fact an address the Royal Mail had sent them which the crooks had issued a Redirection Notice to send all my mail to. It took a while to find out how it happened, but that was the result.

 

I was then put in touch with CIFAS http://www.cifas.org.uk/identity_fraud which you might like to follow as it informs any creditors of yours and any new ones you have been a victim of ID theft.


Cabot and the Cabot Fan Club Threads:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/73598-dealing-cabot-101-cabot.html

 

Legal Actions Explained for Businesses:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/20492-legal-actions-explained-company.html

 

Payplan CCCS Advice:

http://consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/getting-out-debt/128587-info-cccs-payplan-experiences.html?highlight=Payplan

 

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http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

 

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Do not regard my postings or suggestions as professional advice. If in doubt seek a professional opinion.

 

PLEASE DONATE IF SUCCESSFUL - Every little helps :)

 

PLEASE, Do not Private Message me with basic questions, start your own thread and PM a link if you wish, but I will not be able to respond to all individual questions as I am very busy on numerous other things and anyway, others cannot learn from PM's. It also stifles contributions from the vast talent base this site offers from it's contributors and I'm not all that clever really! :D Thank you.

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Just to cover the points raised:

I have reported this to the police. The problem is that they do not regard me as an injured party and frankly didn't seem that interested. I told the bank I had reported the matter, giving crime number and contact details but they had the brass neck to came back saying that they had phoned but the

police weren't getting back to them! My feeling is that they fancy their chances with 'on the balance of probabilities' rather then 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

I did start the SAR route but as it is a identity theft case I do not have the correct signature. As I do not intend to give them id data that would bolster their case I am considering a notary. However if I

end up in the small claims track I believe they can refuse to divulge data; additionally they can

delay for 40 days.

I had no communication with the bank until letters demanding payment.

I will be checking my credit files.

Just to log progress. I got an N244 in requesting that my CPR 31.14 be enforced. This stopped the clock, so no 'embarrassed defence' was necessary, and was successful. The bank have delivered a 'signature mandate' and a 'statement of account' but not yet the agreement. The court had crossed out my request for costs. Will I be able to claim them later?

I was considering a SAR but notaries do not just verify identity but also give data that the bank could use.

I am just at the point of submitting a CPR 18 request set out below. Comments welcome.

 

Please answer the following questions:

 

 

1. Why is the ‘signature mandate’ dated 15/10/2011 when the account was opened 14/10/2011?

2. Where are the ATMs, implied in the ‘statement of account’, located?

3. How many of the ATMs have cameras recording users?

4. Where are the photographs?

5. Who can get access to them?

6. Where was the card, used to access the ATMs, transferred to the account holder?

7. What does ‘BMACH’ mean?

8. a)To which address(es)(email/web/terrestrial/other) did the Claimant send communications for the Account holder?

b)When?

9. a) Which number(s) did the Claimant phone to contact the Account holder?

b)When?

10. How was the Account holder identity verified?

10. How many staff or ex-staff have been investigated for producing fake IDs?

TAKE NOTICE THAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO ANSWER THE ABOVE REQUEST WITHIN 14 DAYS OF SERVICE OF THE SAME UPON YOU

 

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My N244 request for 'The Agreement' was granted and the time allowed has expired, as, though they supplied a 'statement of Accounts', there was no agreement. Presumably I now inform the court and the case will be struck out. At the moment I have not submitted a defense and have not been allocated a track.

I intend applying for costs:

Should I mention that speculation about track allocation is irrelevant? That the spirit of the 'small claims' track has already been violated by one of the parties being a lawyered-up multinational?

Is N244 the appropriate route?

I intend to include a charge for 50 hours of my time, which is if anything an great underestimate. What have others found to be the response of the court? Has anyone an example?

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Take a read of this:[ATTACH]26886[/ATTACH]

 

Also, if they don't supply documentation following a court order think about a Penal Notice....that livens them up.


Cabot and the Cabot Fan Club Threads:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/73598-dealing-cabot-101-cabot.html

 

Legal Actions Explained for Businesses:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/20492-legal-actions-explained-company.html

 

Payplan CCCS Advice:

http://consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/getting-out-debt/128587-info-cccs-payplan-experiences.html?highlight=Payplan

 

How to use the Forum

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

 

A click on the scales below is appreciated if my posts were helpful

Do not regard my postings or suggestions as professional advice. If in doubt seek a professional opinion.

 

PLEASE DONATE IF SUCCESSFUL - Every little helps :)

 

PLEASE, Do not Private Message me with basic questions, start your own thread and PM a link if you wish, but I will not be able to respond to all individual questions as I am very busy on numerous other things and anyway, others cannot learn from PM's. It also stifles contributions from the vast talent base this site offers from it's contributors and I'm not all that clever really! :D Thank you.

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My N244 request for 'The Agreement' was granted and the time allowed has expired, as, though they supplied a 'statement of Accounts', there was no agreement. Presumably I now inform the court and the case will be struck out. At the moment I have not submitted a defense and have not been allocated a track.

I intend applying for costs:

Should I mention that speculation about track allocation is irrelevant? That the spirit of the 'small claims' track has already been violated by one of the parties being a lawyered-up multinational?

Is N244 the appropriate route?

I intend to include a charge for 50 hours of my time, which is if anything an great underestimate. What have others found to be the response of the court? Has anyone an example?

 

Since no allocation has occured the claim is "trackless" whatever the claimant has speculated so the curbs on costs associated with the small claims procedure are not applicable at the moment ie costs are claimable. **

 

" Presumably I now inform the court and the case will be struck out." Well yes and no, although this is undoubtedly what would happen if roles were reveresed the big financial institutions are often given remarkable leeway by the Courts, an "unless order" might be the better option to take first ie Unless the claimant complies with the earlier Court order by xx/xx/2011 the claim be struck out with costs thrown away, going straight for the strike out is less likely to succeed and can cause problems at a later date especially since you have not yet filed a defence.

Have you checked your credit files etc? It might be worth entering a part 20 counterclaim to this action for wrongful credit ref information, that would focus them a little.

 

BMACH is a brand/operator of independent cashpoint machines, they tend to be the ones in shops, garages etc. It's a long shot due to the time expired but we solved a crime against my daughter by getting the atm details and time of withdrawal then approaching the shop owner for cctv footage. The bank in that case had a similar name to the one you've mentioned we'll call them "NotEast" and were hopelessley incompetent and disinterested throughout.


As of 03/03/12 please do not under any circumstances wait for my further input or guidance on any current thread or defence of a court claim I might have been involved in on or through Cag.

Jasper1965

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Jasper 1965 was quite correct about and if anything underplayed the accommodating attitude of the Court to the banks. GanatAntiEast LIED to the court, saying they had supplied The Agreement to me, and the Court accepted their version.

A straight N244 repeat risks the same tactic so will it fly if I request that two copies also be sent to the court as well as me so that in the event that I am still not supplied with The Agreement the court can forward a copy?

Also a short response time,7 days, as by GanatAntiEast's statement to the court that they had supplied The Agreement, it should be available to be dispatched by return of post?

Andrew1's suggestion about the Penal notice is very attractive.

Two further questions:

The 'Statement of Accounts' supplied to me had no location information about the ATMs used. Some banks routinely supply this on their statements. Does anyone know itf this is true of GanatAntiEast?

I still have a CPR 18 request to enforce. Can I squeeze it into the above N244?

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Jasper 1965 was quite correct about and if anything underplayed the accommodating attitude of the Court to the banks. GanatAntiEast LIED to the court, saying they had supplied The Agreement to me, and the Court accepted their version.

A straight N244 repeat risks the same tactic so will it fly if I request that two copies also be sent to the court as well as me so that in the event that I am still not supplied with The Agreement the court can forward a copy?

Also a short response time,7 days, as by GanatAntiEast's statement to the court that they had supplied The Agreement, it should be available to be dispatched by return of post?

Andrew1's suggestion about the Penal notice is very attractive.

Two further questions:

The 'Statement of Accounts' supplied to me had no location information about the ATMs used. Some banks routinely supply this on their statements. Does anyone know itf this is true of GanatAntiEast?

I still have a CPR 18 request to enforce. Can I squeeze it into the above N244?

The Court was even friendlier to GnatAntiEast than I suspected. Having believed the lie that G. gad delivered the agreement and despite my having made clear that another N244 was on the way that gave judgment in favour of G presumably on the basis I had submitted no defence. That is true but my 31.14 order made clear and endorsed by the Court that I should have The Agreement in order to construct my defence. What is my best approach on the appeal?

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Shocking!!!

 

Have you actually received the form of judgment yet and if so what does it say?

 

and also what did the previous order (the one for disclosure of the agreement) actually state?


As of 03/03/12 please do not under any circumstances wait for my further input or guidance on any current thread or defence of a court claim I might have been involved in on or through Cag.

Jasper1965

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Shocking!!!

 

Have you actually received the form of judgment yet and if so what does it say?

 

and also what did the previous order (the one for disclosure of the agreement) actually state?

I only know via G.'s lawyers(Irwin Mitchell since you ask) were kind enough to inform me. Does the lie have the protection of court priveledge or by causing to have published the CCJ have they committed defamation?

The final wording of the 31.14 order is below:

[1]Unless the Claimant within 14 days of the service of the order complies with the request made by the Defendant on February 28 2011 pursuant to CPR 31.14, by the providing to the Defendant the documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim, namely The Agreement:

a) the claim shall be treated as being struck out

 

[2]In the event that the Claimant shall complies with paragraph 1 above with this order:

a) the Defendant shall file and serve a Defence within 14 days of the date of such compliance

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a lie does not carry priviledge far from it, a lie is contempt of court.

 

Did you put the claimant to proof that the agreement was served in accordance with the court order? I know the judge would probably believe the nice man from the big expensive office every time over the LIp but did you go through the motions?

 

 

You'll have to wait until you receive the judgment to see if it was a default judgment or not as a set aside may be available to you.


As of 03/03/12 please do not under any circumstances wait for my further input or guidance on any current thread or defence of a court claim I might have been involved in on or through Cag.

Jasper1965

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J

I did start the SAR route but as it is a identity theft case I do not have the correct signature.

 

How far did you get and did NotEast actually go so far as to tell you that your signature did not match that on file?

 

BTW REF The Police

 

You now by virtue of being held culpable for this debt in County Court are provably the victim of this fraud.

You need to ramp up your complaint with the Police, if no luck getting anybody local to take an interest then you need to contact Professional Standards at your local police hq.


As of 03/03/12 please do not under any circumstances wait for my further input or guidance on any current thread or defence of a court claim I might have been involved in on or through Cag.

Jasper1965

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How far did you get and did NotEast actually go so far as to tell you that your signature did not match that on file?

 

BTW REF The Police

 

You now by virtue of being held culpable for this debt in County Court are provably the victim of this fraud.

You need to ramp up your complaint with the Police, if no luck getting anybody local to take an interest then you need to contact Professional Standards at your local police hq.

The official notification is 'Failure to return claim form' which I think means set aside is my route?

I couldn't think of a watertight way to show the Claimant to have lied so I put in an N244 requiring delivery of 'The Agreement' to the Court as well. This is now in limbo along with an N244 CPR 18 application. With the SAR application I did not use my usual signature as it being an ID theft case I didn't want to give the Claimant anything to bolster their case. The Claimant did deliver a signature quite unlike mine so would have rejected it anyway.

The police route is a good idea and one I will pursue but at the moment I will be concentrating on the appeal. Does the appeal require a hearing and a time allocation i.e. Is it the £45 route or the the £85??

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Just to update. My application for delivery of the agreement to the court seemed to cause a reevaluation of the default judgment. A new deadline has been set for delivery of the agreement. While this seems to be a de facto set aside of the verdict in favour of the Claimant, is it de jure? Is anything else required to set the record straight?

I also reported the id theft to the police as suggested by jasper 1965; as he hinted, they were not too keen and in fact refused to accept that I was now the injured party and record the crime while offering much 'helpful' advice about the running of my case. As a result of their refusal to record the crime I have made a complaint and await developments with interest.

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