help with Rossendales and council tax debt

[RaeUK]

Apols Elliot I missed your reply. Students are always interesting as I'm never really sure where they sit in the grand scheme of bailiffdom. The National Standards for Enforcement Agents list of possible vulnerable types is for guidance only. It isn't exhaustive. If you are an impoverished student with no income outside of the student loan system then I would expect you to meet that brief. Particularly if you own nothing and live in no fixed abode. If your father has the receipt for your laptop then I would see that as a loan of equipment owned by another. The bailiff can only levy on goods that will pay a substantial amount of the debt after auction fees and their own fees. I would have thought that, in your case, any levy would be vexatious...

Rae

[Elliot2011]

Thank you for your reply Rae.

 

Who would you suggest I ask to look at my position of venerability? Iv tried the council I owe the money to, but they are not interested in dealing with me what so ever. They are rude and unhelpful and just palm me off to Rossendales. Rossendales in turn lie about receiving letters and emails, refuse to discuss my case properly over the phone and misrepresent their powers (even lying to the council about levying goods that they haven't and claiming to turn up in a van, which incurred extra debt on my bill, which they certainly didn't) I just feel like i'm going round in circles - incurring more debt in the process.

[brassnecked]

Thank you for your reply Rae.

 

Who would you suggest I ask to look at my position of venerability? Iv tried the council I owe the money to, but they are not interested in dealing with me what so ever. They are rude and unhelpful and just palm me off to Rossendales. Rossendales in turn lie about receiving letters and emails, refuse to discuss my case properly over the phone and misrepresent their powers (even lying to the council about levying goods that they haven't and claiming to turn up in a van, which incurred extra debt on my bill, which they certainly didn't) I just feel like i'm going round in circles - incurring more debt in the process.

 

I think that BOTH MPs the one in the council area chasing the debt, and the MP where you live now, should be contacted, along with the CAB, who may be able to help.

 

The MAIN issue is how does it help you, or anyone by chasing a student who is wholly reliant on Student Finance for subsistence. It is repugnant to have to borrow and become deeper in debt to pay legal sharks like tossendales their possibly and most likely due to nothing to levy on illegal fees

 

This also begs the question for the MPs as to how would rossendales recover money off a rough sleeper would they seize his sleeping bag?

[ploddertom]

Thank you for your reply Rae.

 

Who would you suggest I ask to look at my position of venerability? Iv tried the council I owe the money to, but they are not interested in dealing with me what so ever. They are rude and unhelpful and just palm me off to Rossendales. Rossendales in turn lie about receiving letters and emails, refuse to discuss my case properly over the phone and misrepresent their powers (even lying to the council about levying goods that they haven't and claiming to turn up in a van, which incurred extra debt on my bill, which they certainly didn't) I just feel like i'm going round in circles - incurring more debt in the process.

 

I think the mistake you are making is contacting them all by phone, it's all better done in writing as there is then a trail to follow.

 

PT

[Elliot2011]

I have been sending all communications by letter and email. The only reason I phone is because Rossendales just ignore my letters and emails. (The email address was provided by the council and is the form of communication they recommended) I will give them until the end of the 14 day period I gave them to give me a run down of their charges as I can then dispute the charges they have added. If I still get no response then I will complain to the MP' and other appropriate authorities.

[brassnecked]

Elliott2011, I would at least write/email a letter via www.writetothem.com, where you can get your MP detaiis and send a letter to them via the site PDQ to get them in the picture, then when they (rossendales) don't respond with all the information you requested and witter on about £10 for a SAR, after the 14 days is up. Then the MPs are up to speed, with what the situation is.

 

Hope this helps, and others will no doubt be along also with options.

[Elliot2011]

ok, I will do this now. Thank you.

[RaeUK]

Who would you suggest I ask to look at my position of venerability?

The Pope?

Seriously, though... I note you have posts suggesting your MP etc. Give those a go. You've also had advice to write not phone. A paper record is important. In these modern days we've forgotten that letter writing is both an art and a war of atrition. Believe me, you can write the most devastating of letters in the pleasantest of tones. The recipient just doesn't realise what you are doing. 6 months ago I would have volunteered to write an example for you and guide you through this. I had to take a hiatus for health reasons and suspect my return is a little premature. The first letter you write to Rossendales / Council is simply exploratory. You give them the basics and hold back a couple of points. The objective is to have them come back to you and tell you how your thinking is wrong. First strike to you. That's what you want as your second letter then takes apart their argument etc.And so the tennis goes on. My earlier success rate was something like 75/25. Those that I failed were those that didn't appreciate this is a long term affair and you're building up evidence against the bailiff / council that can be used to great effect. In the long term you'll always win...

Best wishes

Rae

[Elliot2011]

Thanks for the reply Rae. I will be sending letters to my Local MPs ect today - then I guess I just wait and see what happens. After my last letters to both the council and Rossendales its been very quite (the council have always been quick to tell me that they are not interested in my problems and to speak to Rossendales) After pointing out that they are responsible for their third party employees - and their negative effect on my fathers health (he suffered a stroke last year and the bailiffs calling at his home is causing him stress especially as I don't live there or own anything there) they seem to be taking some time to reply, maybe Im finally getting through to them.

 

Wishing you well health.

 

Elliot

[martonman]

No need to worry Elliot. Firstly, ignore the Bailiff. Secondly, ignore Rossendales. Thirdly, pay whatever you can (however small an amount - even £5 at a time) regularly and directly to the Council via their online or automated telephone service. That way they can't refuse it and you are bypassing Rossendales and thus avoiding their fees.

 

Once you were in default the Council would have passed the case onto Rossendales. They pass it on to (usually) a self-employed commission-only certificated bailiff. Rossendales know full well what charges they can lawfully make. So does the Bailiff, but it's in his interests to add charges and to willfully defraud by intimidation whenever he can. Otherwise, he just wouldn't make a living.

 

Whenever a Bailiff hand-delivers a letter demanding £xxxx you can be absolutely sure that the majority of it is for the Bailiff's back-pocket. They'll threaten all sorts of things to get you to pay it - locksmiths, police attendance, warrant of arrest etc etc. It really is all bull.

 

For an old parking fine I recently had two hand-delivered letters from a bailiff within two days. The first demanding £220, the second £260. After a written demand, the bailiff company sent a statement to the (legal) total of about half that amount. Obviously the discrepancy is down to the bailiff trying it on. I've now demanded an explanation from the bailiff company as to whether their man has numeracy problems or is attempting to commit criminal fraud. I await their reply!

[Elliot2011]

Finally got a reply from Rossendales. It was as follows

 

Dear Mr xxxxx

 

Thank you for your email.

 

Please find below the information requested.

 

Bailiff visit 20th September 2010 at 11.57 am by XXXXX, visit fee £24.50

Bailiff visit 27 September 2010 at 1.35pm by XXXX, visit fee £18.00

Bailiff visit 16 March 2011 at 07.50 am by XXXXX, attendance fee £110.00 and levy fee £31.00.

 

XXXXXX was certificated at Burnley Combined Court on 5th May 2009. XXXXXXXX was certificated at Burnley Combined Court on 4th September 2009.

 

All of our fees are charged in accordance with the Council Tax Administration and Enforcement regulations and are clearly outlined on the instruction sheet that was left with the request for instalments form by the first call bailiff. We can therefore confirm that all fees on your account have been applied lawfully.

 

On checking your case details, we have only received on previous piece of correspondence from you that was received by post, the letter was not dated by yourself, however was received on 25th October 2010 and responded to on 27th October 2010.

 

As you stated you were a student, we request proof of this and held further recovery action for a period of 14 days to allow you to provide this.

 

As this was not received, no contact from yourself was received or no payment received, your case was referred to our Enforcement Bailiff for recovery who you will need to contact on 07725 247387 to discuss the matter further.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

xxxxxxx

Correspondence and Welfare Officer

Rossendales Ltd

Wavell House

Holcombe Road

Helmshore

Rossendale

BB4 4NB

 

I did send send them letters - and the university are drawing up duplicates to resend to Rossendales. No levy has been made as mentioned in my previous posts - no van has ever visited - no bailiff has entered any property that I stay in.

 

How do you propose I approach my next letter?

Edited March 31, 2011 by Elliot2011

[brassnecked]

Eliott, edit your post to remove the personal details of the bailiff, as it is not done to personally identify them, and get the Uni to send you a certificate, of proof of status, giving the start and end dates of your course of study. They do these all the time to prove a students exemption from paying council tax on student lodgings, and shared houses. then send a copy as requested to both the council and rossendales. If the period of liability was covered by the dates on the certificate, logic dictates the liability should be null and void, and the council may zero the account, but as this is a council we are talking about, nothing should surprise you in what they do, however rossendales may still come after their fees. Others will know more about this, and I'm sure they will be along later

[Elliot2011]

Sorry edited the post. I have requested another draft of certificate of proof of status from my University. I was just wondering how it would be best to reply until I get the certificate of status from my university?

 

Namely I want to challenge the Van charge and levy fee as these should not have been charged to me (as is my understanding after advice from this board and debtline)

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Elliot

[ploddertom]

Sorry edited the post. I have requested another draft of certificate of proof of status from my University. I was just wondering how it would be best to reply until I get the certificate of status from my university? When you get it scan it and send them a copy by email followed by a copy in the post. So that they can read it, it is better to convert your scan to a PDF file - there are plenty of free ones available.

Namely I want to challenge the Van charge and levy fee as these should not have been charged to me (as is my understanding after advice from this board and debtline) - you will need to write to them and ask what goods were levied on as no Notice of Seizure was left with you - chances are it will have been a car parked nearby. Secondly they cannot charge a levy Fee & Attendance Fee at the same time.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Elliot

 

PT

[Elliot2011]

Thank you PT Im now awaiting their reply. If it does turn out that they claim to have levied a car ( I doubt this as on the day my brother saw the bailiff arrive in a car, and after refusing to let them enter they drove off), as its not mine and has nothing to do with me would I still be liable for the fee?

 

Oh and my brother has pointed out the time they have given is totally wrong for the 16th of March visit - which is the visit they claim to have levied on.

[ploddertom]

Thank you PT Im now awaiting their reply. If it does turn out that they claim to have levied a car ( I doubt this as on the day my brother saw the bailiff arrive in a car, and after refusing to let them enter they drove off), as its not mine and has nothing to do with me would I still be liable for the fee? Wait and see what they come up with first, chances are it will be car that was in the vicinity at the time - there is a sticky about this sort of thing at the top of the page where the thread listings are, have a read of these to help arm yourself. he will hope you will just pay up and not ask questions. Anything they come up with that is iffy can be challenged, takes time I know and nothing happens instantly. If he has levied on goods that are not yours there is a partial short cut to overcome it but wait first.

 

Oh and my brother has pointed out the time they have given is totally wrong for the 16th of March visit - which is the visit they claim to have levied on. - You will be able to put them to stricy proof of visiting, shame your brother isn't an entirely independent witness.

 

PT

[Elliot2011]

Thanks PT - time is all I need really. Two weeks to be precise as in two weeks time Il be able to just afford to pay the council directly - then the situation will be a little bit less stressful for me. I may be able to get my brother to ask my fathers neighbour if she saw what time the bailiff visit.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the post about the car thing, Il give that a read now

[Elliot2011]

Ok so I have gotten a reply from Rossendales - they claim to have left a notice of seizure at my fathers address (which they havn't) and claim to have seized a silver mountain bike. I have asked my father and neither he or my brother have ever owned a silver mountain bike so this claim is fraudulent. How do I complain to rossendales properly about this act of fraud? I also know for certain that no person has entered my fathers property as he has a guard dog, which would not let any stranger onto his property, not even I can bring friends to his home if my father is not home so the bailiffs would not have got in without being bitten, and Im sure they would have told me if they were attacked by the dog.

 

They also claim that they left me a form some time ago to arrange a payment scheme - which I am certain they did not, and now refuse to supply me with one.

 

Further more they say they will not deal with me in writing any more as it is with one of their bailiffs - even though I have informed them I have no access to a telephone (I have less than £5 to live off for two weeks so buying credit is not an option, plus I would like a written record incase I need it later on)

 

Any advise on what to put into my next letter to them?

[thebeyond]

please excuse brevity of reply

[limited time to spend online]

 

still dealing with the bayleaves?

 

there's a standard bit of advice offered by a regular cagger fork-it

which may be found on Brumgal's thread

[page2 of threads at time of writing - would cut & paste it but I'm too junior to post links]

 

to get a council's local tax services office to call off their bayleaves

[compelling evidence....14 day notice....regulations]

 

another option is firing into the council's complaints process

[see their website for how]

As you did not receive notice prior to the hearing which ordered the liability

you have grounds for a service complaint

as this is not a level of service consistent with the council's statutory aspirational obligations.

Complaints is typically multistage

this 1st complaint they would dismiss ["the documents were sent to your "usual" address & so court would consider them appropriately served"]

BUT

this is all just to get the case pulled back from the bayleaves

so the 1st is sent Royal Mail Recorded Delivery

& you use the track'n'trace facility on the royal mail website to find out When the council received it

 

after they dismiss your 1st stage complaint you have about 4 weeks to make a second stage complaint

BETWEEN THEM RECEIVING YOUR 1st STAGE COMPLAINT, and your deadline for your second stage complaint

they ought not communicate with you at all

[because the complaints process assumes priority]

any such communication effectively deprives your of your statutory right to [about 4 weeks] time to prepare a considered response to their 1st stage dismissal

 

your second stage complaint is a fine time to complain about this deprivation

and anything else you can shoehorn in, INCLUDING proposals to pay the council their bill in installments to suit you

 

with no more truck with bayleaves

["why talk to the monkey when you can talk to the organ grinder?"]

 

good luck - do check out the other threads [modesty forbids but mine is here somewhere]

& good studies!

[impecunious]

Elliot, have you thought of contacting Student Services at your Uni/college? As a mature student and single mum of 4 children, with 100% council tax exemption, I found myself having to deal with a HUGE bill for council tax because my son, then 19, could no longer attend college because he had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia psychosis. Despite complaints to my local council, councillors and MP (then Vince Cable) about the bill and no income apart from my student loan and dependents allowance, nothing apparently could be done - it was an "anomoly". However, I approached Student Services just to explain my difficulty. I was subsequently sent a cheque for over £2,000 to help me overcome my difficulties and enable me to continue my studies without distraction. I was completely overwhelmed by their generosity and understanding.

 

I'm not promising they can help but that's what they're there for! There is a usually a pot of money to help in such situations.

 

Good luck!!

 

Impecunious!

[Elliot2011]

Thanks for the quick reply!

[Elliot2011]

Impecunious - thanks for the advise I will talk to my university straight away, thank you!

[Elliot2011]

The National Standards Of Enforcement Agents website states "Enforcement agents should take all reasonable steps to satisfy themselves that the value of the goods impounded in satisfaction of the judgement is proportional to the value of the debt and charges owed"

 

So am I correct in thinking that this means that they can not levy on any goods unless it covers the fee owed? If this is the case, should I just agree with Rossendales that as they have sent me an email with a fraudulent notice of seizure form claiming they have seized goods, ie the imaginary mountain bike - that they satisfied themselves the bike covers the debt - and request they close my account immediately?

 

Doubt it would work but might make them admit that they faked the form?

[brassnecked]

The National Standards Of Enforcement Agents website states "Enforcement agents should take all reasonable steps to satisfy themselves that the value of the goods impounded in satisfaction of the judgement is proportional to the value of the debt and charges owed"

 

So am I correct in thinking that this means that they can not levy on any goods unless it covers the fee owed? If this is the case, should I just agree with Rossendales that as they have sent me an email with a fraudulent notice of seizure form claiming they have seized goods, ie the imaginary mountain bike - that they satisfied themselves the bike covers the debt - and request they close my account immediately?

 

Doubt it would work but might make them admit that they faked the form?

If they have actually taken someones mountain bike, not just listed an imaginary one to give them grounds to levy, then the police should take action against them if someone has reported one stolen in the area around the time they said they called.

 

It wouldn't be worth the bother trying that one, they will defend their fees up to the point they have to remove them when a complaint hits the fan or a possible investigation begins.

 

They can hide behind an assumption that anything in and around the property including the postman's bike, or some random car parked nearby is the debtors to levy on until proved not to be, then quietly remove the unlawful fees when challenged so they don't have to swear to the validity of them in court.

Edited April 6, 2011 by brassnecked

[Elliot2011]

Ok, thanks for the advice