is this bullying

[suziebear67]

Hi i was called into a quality meeting on Friday with 12 other people which the quality manager was holding she started the meeting by asking me why i came into work as all my work was **** and they all knew my op number in the quality office as they see it every day and it doesnt matter where they put me as my work is **** she then commented on some other peoples work but was not as harsh. She then went on to say that we would all end up losing our jobs if things dont improve and there were people queuing up to take our place. After this meeting i became upset and went home and saw my gp the following Monday who signed me off sick with work related anxiety, I had already seen my gp on the 16th of feb as was already suffering anxiety and depression due to the demands of the job and was prescribed anti depressants.

 

I was off sick with flu for over 2 weeks in Jan and since i came back have been called into ofice to discuss quality which lead to a verbal warning in a seperate disciplinary hearing which i appealed as i was denied proper resresentation. The hearing was reheard with the same reusults verbal warning.

I have previously never been called into the office from 3rd aug 09 with any issues.

 

I have worked for this company since Aug 2009 doing various jobs.. In Sept 2010 there were some quality issues regarding some work with the outcome that i had not been trained for that job i was told there was noone to train me and sent back to my previous job. At that time i was working for the now quality manager she was manufacteuring manager at the time.

 

Also i started a Nvq novemeber 20009 with two thirds complete and have not done any more towards it in the last 12 months. Also other people have been offered promotions training and joining in work related activities while i have not.

 

Im seeing cab next week to sort a grievience letter out do you think i have been bullied this manger

is well known for disregarding employment rights she finished people before for being slow and they were reinstsated also lot of shop floor upset with how quaility is measured and are regularly geting upset.

 

sorry its so long any help would be apprieciated thanks

[watchinginvestigation2011]

Some advice will follow.

 

Not very motivating saying that in front of others.

 

Not very professional either.

[honeybee13]

Hello there Suzie and welcome to CAG. I'm sorry to hear about your problems.

 

Without identifying yourself or the company, could you tell us a bit more about this grievance please? Do you think you're being treated more harshly than other members of staff? And is there any credible proof that you make more mistakes than other people?

 

I expect more of the guys will be along later.

 

My best, HB

[suziebear67]

definatley not very proffesional she also said the f word twice

i also worked the for 18 months from oct 2008 till march 2009 when i was made redundant and was taken back on in aug 2009

[suziebear67]

its cable assembly the mistakes are been collected more than they used to be since this manager has moved into that area

i felt humiliated and degraded at the quality meeting and didnt think manangers could talk to people in that manner

[suziebear67]

hello thanks for the welcome

the only proof they have of any errors is what is put on fault sheets by other employees who have been told if they dont fill them in they too will be disaplined

[elpulpo]

They certainly shouldn't talk to people in such a way.

What size is the company? Do you have a copy of the company Disciplinary & Grievance procedure?

You need to submit a formal grievance to this persons manager.

[suziebear67]

They employ around 200 people the only place i know where the d and g procedure is a copy in canteen. The only time i have been called to office in whole time i worked there was in the lat 5 weeks. I am going to cab for help with grievance letter next thurs. ACAS advice line said they have duty of care under health and safety act. Doctor has put on sick note can return with workplace adaptations or revised duties.

[BankFodder]

this is a shocking story and I'm sure it must be very upsetting for you. The treatment of you is completely unacceptable. It is not surprising that it has had an effect on your nerves and emotional state. I'm sure that this would be the natural consequence of anybody.

you have been there since 2009 so you have accrued some employment rights.

 

What you must absolutely do now is to make a full note of everything that happened. Include dates, time, who was present, and exactly what was said as far as you can remember. This is very important because of course you will have no record of events so far. It may be painful for you to do this but once it is all down you'll probably find it has a certain cleansing effect as well. Be very thorough. It may take it will three days to keep on going back to your statement and adding things as you remember them. If you go back to work, do not take this statement with you. Keep it at home.

 

After that I suggest that you get yourself an exercise book and start trying to note down a detailed history of your whole employment experience at the firm. Include what your job was what you were employed for what your training was etc. Any conversations with anybody about anything, note them down as detailed as accurately as possible and of course as verbatim as possible.

 

Yon you need to decide whether or not you want to stay there.

 

The rules relating to constructive dismissal are, that if you're employers put you into a position which is so intolerable that your only reasonable reaction is to leave, then you will be able to say that in fact you were dismissed. Your employers will not be able to argue that you resigned of your own free will.

 

The event which you react must be something which is really intolerable or unacceptable and which no reasonable person would expect you to accept. It seems to me that what has happened here falls within that.

 

Second thing is that if you decide to leave, then you have to leave very quickly after the intolerable event. Otherwise it can be said that actually the event wasn't as bad as all that and that in reality you are manipulating the situation and that you are just using the circumstances as an excuse to leave your employment and to blame your employment.

 

Your options include, handing in your notice immediately and explaining why you have been forced to leave and why you feel it is intolerable to stay there. you would then begin an action before an industrial tribunal for unfair dismissal. It would also begin a claim for personal injury in respect of the emotional stress that you are suffering and the fact that you have had to go to the doctor.

 

You can simply decide to make a complaint to the managers boss about her treatment of you. I think that if his complaint was not properly dealt with, you might still be in a position where you could then resign and claim constructive dismissal.

 

You could make a complaint to your managers boss and also make a claim for industrial injury on the basis of the stress which has been forced on to you.

 

It is up to you to decide. However I can imagine that if you bring any kind of claim against them, this will jeopardise your job. If your managers boss is fair then he or she would receive your complaint about the ill-treatment and deal with it professionally. However this can never be guaranteed and of course they could easily be a closing of ranks. The next thing that might happen would be that they would start gathering information against you to show that everything was really your fault.

 

It's up to you. You have to decide whether you are prepared to go on with the job. You have to decide whether it you are prepared to leave and look around for another job. Don't forget there may be a problem with references. It is a nasty situation.

 

Whatever you do, start making up the Journal I suggested. This is very important. You will need in order to protect herself either now or, the way things are going, in maybe the not too distant future

[suziebear67]

Thanks for your advice i was hoping to put the grievance in and see what the outcome would be before handing in notice this manager is so involved with the shop floor that if i was to return she would just find another problem with me ie timekeeping

Am already writing everthing down as i remember it .

Have suport of some work colleges but not sure they would give a statement to a tribunal .

[elpulpo]

Yet again, BankFodder, I have to take issue with you bringing up the very idea of Constructive Dismissal in a circumstance such as this. I think it's very irresponsible to suggest that CD might be an option here.

Undoubtedly, for a line manager to behave towards someone in such a way is very unreasonable. But such behaviour in no way undermines the employees relationship with their employer to the extent that the relationship is effectively destroyed, so that they could summarily resign and have any prospect of successfully claiming CD.

The OP hasn't even submitted a grievance yet, and there's no reason why senior management might not uphold that such behaviour was unacceptable and suitably address the issue.

[elpulpo]

Thanks for your advice i was hoping to put the grievance in and see what the outcome would be before handing in notice this manager is so involved with the shop floor that if i was to return she would just find another problem with me ie timekeeping

Am already writing everthing down as i remember it .

Have suport of some work colleges but not sure they would give a statement to a tribunal .

DON'T RESIGN. Full stop.

[suziebear67]

ok i was hoping they may suggest working somewhere else in the company after what doc put on sick note and when they realise i have become ill due to work or hopefully get rid of manager which i doubt very much or remove her from any contact with the people on shop floor

[elpulpo]

Well, these are things they may do after they've considered your grievance. I'd request that they send you a copy of their Disciplinary & Grievance procedure.

[suziebear67]

Well, these are things they may do after they've considered your grievance. I'd request that they send you a copy of their Disciplinary & Grievance procedure.

by phone or letter?

[suziebear67]

also can i ask them for any information they hold on my file and if so how would i word it

[honeybee13]

Suzie, just to comment on something you said, a colleague's statement wouldn't be enough for a tribunal, even if colleagues were prepared to sign them. You can't count on them when it comes to a choice between backing you and keeping their jobs. Their evidence can only be in person in front of a tribunal.

 

But as the octopus said, you shouldn't be going there at this stage before exhausting internal grievance procedures, tribunals don't like that. Also bear in mind that of the people who try for CD [constructive], only 3 in 100 win.

 

My best, HB

[suziebear67]

Suzie, just to comment on something you said, a colleague's statement wouldn't be enough for a tribunal, even if colleagues were prepared to sign them. You can't count on them when it comes to a choice between backing you and keeping their jobs. Their evidence can only be in person in front of a tribunal.

 

But as the octopus said, you shouldn't be going there at this stage before exhausting internal grievance procedures, tribunals don't like that. Also bear in mind that of the people who try for CD [constructive], only 3 in 100 win.

 

My best, HB

thanks will wait and put the grievance in and see wat they suggest

[elpulpo]

by phone or letter?

Letter or email is best.

[elpulpo]

also can i ask them for any information they hold on my file and if so how would i word it

You can ask, just write and say, 'I request a copy of my file please'.

The only way to force them to provide such info is to submit a subject access request.

[suziebear67]

hi,

Well grievance sent off this morning and doc put me on sick for another 2 weeks.

[Giggins]

I am of the [opinion] that this "unwanted conduct" amounts to a breach of the "mutual trust and confidence" and therefore agree with BankFodder.

 

Western Excavating (ECC) Ltd v Sharp [1978] ICR 221

"The employer sall not conduct itself in a manner calculated and likely to destroy or seriously damage the mutual trust and confidence".

 

The case of Morrow v Safeway Stores plc [2002] IRLR 9 is very much the same as yours, whereas a boss gave an employee a ticking off in front of other employees. (google it).

 

In this case, the EAT overruled the Tribunal, and held that "any breach of the implied duty of trust and confidence will inevitably be repudiatory, entitling the employee to resign and claim constructive dismissal."

I am not suggesting you do resign, only bring this case to the attention of the CAB. Hope it helps.

 

 

[suziebear67]

thanks very much

[Atlas01]

I'm of the opinion that anyone who advises someone to resign apart from their own solicitor should be prepared to pay the persons bills when they lose their case. (That's not a dig at anyone, more a generic opinion)

 

One swallow does not make a summer and 1 CD case win does not constitute the norm. i also don't have a low opinion of CAB, more one of frustration, they advice on what the person tells them, nothing more nothing less and will not be there when the person actually needs them.

 

The OP has been at the end of her managers meltdown in front of staff, possibly the brunt of it, If i was a quality manager and the quality of work was *&*&*& as she put it i'd be more worried about my own job which potentially leads to her David Brent impression

 

The OP has already been disciplined albeit low level over the quality of her work, she has also been moved due to quality issues, there is already form here for her employer to pursue if they don't like the grievance being lodged. In addition already before the incident she had already sought medical advice due to the strain of the job.

 

I would not be surprised if this is quickly turned into an attack on her capability by the employer and unless the other people in the room back up her claims (going to stick out my neck out and expect workmates to say it was heated but not side with the Op to protect their rears) the grievance may not be upheld by the employer, especially as we have no idea on the remedy requested, i've always looked at grievances as a 2 pronged process, 1. the actual incident, 2 what remedy the complainant requests

 

Suzie, sorry to go all 3rd person on you there but those were opinions more to other posters not yourself.

 

I think you need to have a good hard think about where your going from here on in, capability usually falls into 3 brackets, the first being a COMPLETE lack of support from the employer, the second being a tactic used to remove a employee someone does not like (the pressure of the process makes the person commit mistakes) and the third, which is the one i find hard to discuss with the people i represent in this area is where the person is simply not up to the job.

 

Moving away from the actual incident which is clear bullying, is this a job that with the best manager in the world your going to be able to undertake without it affecting your health? Are you able to defend yourself because bullying only applies to those who allow themselves to be bullied in my own opinion, i get complaints several times a week over a manager saying something in front of other workers, most fall flat due to their workmates suddenly forgetting the incident when investigated. You have stated your were already struggling before the incident to the extent your on AD's under the doctor.

 

Is the pressure of this process going to be something you can handle on your own, it's easy to advise from this side of the screen, i've had a few managers do the same to me over the years in a open environment, they only ever did it once though because in essence they opened the floor for me to respond and could not pursue my comments as they threw the proverbial first punch.

 

I'm very aware though that some people do not have this skill, hence why they come here for advice or their union, while your off recuperating i'd put serious consideration into where you want to be at the end of this process and how much can be thrown back your way that your actually able to cope with, many people in your circumstances simply cannot mentally deal with the pressure of a complaint and also staying whiter than white in work in the meantime.

 

99% of employers sympathy in this area constitute nothing but crocodile tears, they will be much more interested in managing you out through your work standards (which always drop when you have anxiety) or through your inability to attend work if your manager is more important to them.

 

They do have specific duties around your sickness if clearly identified as work related (councilling CBT etc) but most of the time this is done to tick boxes than to actually help you.

 

good luck

[suziebear67]

Hi thanks for your reply to my situation i think the main problem with the job is the system we work to i have suggested numerous ways to stop some of these "faults" occurring. The reason i had the verbal was because i was a trainer 12 months ago on this area. One of the other trainers also had a verbal for the same thing and the third trainer is on her way to disciplinary after already having the informal meeting and told to improve.Instead of looking into why this is happening its just put down to operator error end of story.

This manager is well known for her bullying 12 months ago another member of staff resigned from a managment position due to her treatment of him Luckily he was offered another position he had worked there for 15yrs im just hoping he put some sort of formal complaint in with his notice.

I think its the treatment of myself that is making me ill more than the actual work i cant see a solution to the problem either and cant see myself returning in the near future.