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Hi

 

This is my first post and the situation has me sick with worry.

 

Last week I was travelling on work purposes and went to my local station, I work for a police force but am not a police officer. At teh ticket office where I have been before the ticket officer said that my force does not need to buy tickets to travel on FGW trains. He is a very friendly and helpful chap.

 

I boarded the train with NO ticket. I was approached by a ticket inspector who I showed my ID card to and he said thank you and walked off. I got off of the train and went to the exit. I went to the barrier guard and again showed my ID and was waved through without comment. On my return I again went to the barrier guard and was again waved through.

 

I boarded the train and the ticket officer asked to see tickets. I showed my ID as I had done previously that day and came across a problem. It was not accepted. The officer said in a statemented question 'you are not a police officer' i said no, and gave my job title. I explained briefly what I was told that morning but he jsut said, 'you need a ticket'. I said that is not what i was told and the reason I don't have a ticket. He then said 'so it's our fault is it?' I said it's not a problem for me and I can buy a ticket now and claim it back through my employer. He then said 'it's too late for that'. I didn't argue as I was highly embarrassed. He asked my name and asked me to write it in his book of which I did along with my address, job title and shoulder number. I then asked for his name and without saying anything he showed me an ID card and I confirmed his name. He then without saying another word walked off. I then arrived at my station and disembarked.

 

I wasn's issued with any warning, I wasn't cautioned, he left me with no papers etc. etc. Nothing whatsoever. I was basically left in limbo wondering what would happen.

 

I went straight to the ticket office where I saw a chap who laughed and said he was sure there was a policy and while trying to look for it was talking and kept saying he was sure a policy existed. He asked the name of the ticket inspector and when I said his name he said he knew him and said he must have been in a bad mood.

 

I contacted FGW customer services and I expained the above. I was told that a policy did NOT exist for free travel for my police force. I was told I would receive a penalty fare notice of £20 and that I should pay it and then after payment has been accepted write to them to explain the situation.

 

I am sick with worry that I will be made an example of and taken to court and prosecuted which will result in the loss of my job where I have worked for 10 years. I have no previous convictions, never been arrested and never even had a speeding ticket in 25 years of driving.

 

I have disclosed the events to my line manager as it is better to be transparent in these situations. I may also be in trouble at work.

 

I beleive I acted in good faith on advice given and would have purchased a ticket that morning. I could also have purchased a ticket if stopped by the first ticket inspector, at the first barrier or if stopped at the 2nd barrier but as I was allowed through without question which is why I didn't buy a ticket.

 

Please can you give me some advice on what may happen? As I said I am sick with worry about this as I am not the kind of person who is dishonest.

 

Do you know the policy of FGW and do they prosecute everyone? I did not have a ticket but I have a valid reason for this of which I hope FGW will accept but if they dont I hope that theh court will.

 

I am having sleepless nights about this andfeel constantly sick.

 

Please help me.

 

Kind regards

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Hello there. I'm not one of the gurus here, but I expect they'll be along later. Try not to worry too much at this stage. From what I've read on this forum, you did all the right things as suggested by the gurus, going by what you've said. It's a shame the man in the ticket office seems to have got it wrong.

 

Please bear with us, someone should be along soon.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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You need to get the member of staff who said you could travel without a ticket to write a short statement to that effect.

There are legal defences to travelling without a ticket, having the permission of an authorised person is one of them.

Only police officers qualify under the various schemes in place for police force free travel & I suggest you knew that as it is very well publicised in standing orders, you took advantage of your police status & have been caught, if you get away with it this time dont do it again.

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Thank you for your first couple of replies.

 

If the ticket officer hadn't had told me I could travel free I would have purchased a ticket. That is what is annoying as all I would do is make an expenses claim via my force, all very easy.

 

I have established now that my police force have no policies with FGW to travel free even within our area so it seems like the advice I was given in good faith has backfired.

 

I'll try to get a statement from the chap invloved who gave me the initial advice but it may render him in trouble with his managers and he may not want to do it. I will try though.

 

I look forward to the gurus providing further advice as I cannot sleep, am shaking through worry and stress which is not like me at all.

 

I may need to take time off of work because of this as all can do is think about the worst.

 

Kind regards.

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Hi

 

Another question if I may.

 

I spoke to the customer services for FGW as mentioned an dthey said I would need to poay a penalty fare of £20.

 

If this is iteh case, would it not have been easier for the ticket inspector to do this at the time? I did offer to pay there and then but he didn't want to know.

 

I wrote a transcript of what was said very soon after the incident so it was fresh in my mind.

 

Looking at teh FGW website I was in a fare penalty zone.

 

It is usual to not be offered to pay here an dthen but to receive an invoice after the incident?

 

Thanks again

 

Kind regards

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If you were issued with notice then it is PF, if your details were taken with nothing being issued then prosecutions will write to you.

 

Only met officers get free travel on FGW in the area of Paddington to Newbury/Didcot.

Views expressed in this forum by me are my own personal opinion and you take it on face value! I make any comments to the best of my knowledge but you take my advice at your own risk.

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Thanks again for your posts.

 

This had just added to my anxiety knowing that I will probably not be issued with a Penalty Fare Notice.

 

I will now just have to sit back and wait until I receive a letter and then respond to it.

 

RPI, you are 100% correct in saying that only Met Officers receive free travel as I have fiund this out. Unfortunately the Ticket Officer didn't know this specifically and this is why I am in this situation. I am going to see him to ask for him to sign a letter stating that he gave me information on that day in good faith.

 

I did read about the bylaw 18?? where it states there are reasons why you can travel without a ticket and an authorised person can allow to travel. I hope he signs the letter as it will make me fell a lot better knowing I can use this as a defence rather than just intimating he said it without any firm evidence although my wife who was with me can also write a letter to confirm what was said.

 

Is there any further advice anyone can provide me please?

 

Should I seek legal advice from a solicitor?

 

How long does it usually take for the prosecutions department to write etc?

 

Kind regards

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Hi again!!

 

I just went to the train station and the ticket officer kindly signed a letter just stating that he gave me advice and was surprised when I returned that afternoon with my news. Also, he thought it was the companies policy.

 

I also looked around the station office an da large yellow sign is there which states that if you do travel without a ticket you will face a penanlty fare notice.

 

There si no small print stating that legal action will be taken. I have taken a photo of this sign of whch i am sure are located in each station.

 

I am still interested to hear from the guru's on this site to see what they think but having the letter signed and seeing that sign has made me fell better with the situation.

 

Best wishes to all.

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Hello. Well done you; I think the more cynical amongst us wondered if the guy would sign, but there is some justice in this world.

 

The gurus will tell you what to do next, but it may well be to wait for now and see what the letter says.

 

You'll be OK, HBx

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Thanks Honetbee.

 

I also have my wife as a witness to what was said in case the chap wouldn't sign! I didn't want to bring her into it.

 

I feel better now I have this letter. He is a very nice chap.

 

I'll await to see what happens but I will be writing a letter of complaint about the ticket inspectors attitute and rudeness as there no need to be rude to people.

 

I am still happy to pay the fare and a penalty charge. If I shouldn't travel for free then I am happy to pay.

 

Still looking forward to advice from the guru's.

 

Kind regards

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I've been away from the boards for a while, due to a brief stay in hospital, but this one has 'tempted' me back. Whilst I have read the thread through and have a deal of sympathy with the OP, I would like to add this thought.

 

I note that the OP is concerned that the yellow PF notices do not carry any threat of legal action. Why should they? As I understand it, Penalty Fares are a civil remedy. "Legal action" can be taken against anyone who boards a train without a valid ticket, having had the opportunity to purchase one. This can be achieved via the Railway Byelaws or relevant sections of the RRA 1889. The fact that you are on railway premises with the intention to travel is clear indication that you accept the Terms and Conditions of the Railway and necessarily, the Byelaws

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? :razz:

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Hi Maxwell

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

I note all that you say.

 

All I can say in this matter is that I did intend to pay but the information provided to me in good faith was taken and so no ticket was purchased. 3 FGW staff accepted my ID but the 4th didn't.

 

It's very annoying but what can I do? I'll see what happens and report back for further advice if that is OK.

 

I am still quite miffed with the RPI's attitude and unwillingness to allow me to pay him there and then.

 

It is a clear case to me of misunderstanding and misinformtion of which i hope FGW will accept if not, i hope the Magistrates will accept it.

 

Kind regards

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Hi Egg

 

Firstly I do not claim to be a Guru... I am certainly not doing anything that could be equated to meditation at the moment :wink: 8-)

 

But firstly I'd say you were pretty unlucky to be treated that way. Although ATOC Revenue dept.'s have across the board 'recently' been taking a harsher line on Police Officers occupying First Class accomodation when unintitled, it is a maxim amongst RPI's that, on a train, it is better to have the Police on your side than not. After all, an officer with a ticket is 'merely' another fare-paying passenger, where as an officer travelling on a Warrant (although I understand you to be civilian staff and not a warrant holder?), or in your case, accredited Police ID, is effectively forced to place his / herself on duty on the request of railway staff- which could come in handy for the RPI in the next carriage!

 

However that is somewhat off the record as it comes from experience rather than the letter of the law (of which there are plenty). E.g., Google 'Byelaw 18'.

 

Firstly: as the Hitchhikers' Guide tells us... DON'T PANIC

Secondly: WAIT. Wait for the letter from FGW Prosecutions. They will present you the opportunity to state your case / mitigation etc. It is at that point that you send in (with your explaination) a COPY of the Booking Clerk's statement. As I think was mentioned above, it is permissable to board a train on the authority of a member (or who appeears to be a member) of Railway Staff.

Thirdly: Don't worry about the Clerk; that's what he pays his union dues for! In this (and previous!) climates of 'Big Society' AKA 'cuts' :wink: Revenue messrooms tend to be quite small... with smaller notice-boards... but an ever increasing number of briefings and re-briefings posted on top of each other! So I'm show he's watching he's back. You worry about watching yours!

 

Normally we advise sending 'grovelling' letters back to Prosecution Units on receipt oof that letter; in your case I think you could afford to be slightly more robust if you chose. Quite simply, you were (in my understanding and therefore this is only a suggestion!:

 

  • a) advised by a uniformed member of staff that you could board the train on that authority; and
  • b) you understand that the law allows this.

PS on a llighter note, the reason the station has that big yelllow metal sign warning of Penalty Fares is because not all stations / lines ARE PF areas. And one of the statutory conditions of a Train Operating Company having a Penalty Fare sceme is that that specific poster is prominently displayed. However, since fare evasion (rather than 'ticket irregularities') is a criminal offence (and has been since 1889, effecctively), it is not deemed necessary to advise people of it. This is in much the same way as for example Tesco do not need to put up signs telling peopleit is illegal to shoplift or steal from them, etc!

 

Hope this helps Egg. If I'm wrong, the Gurus will correct us both!

Seriously, good luck & alll the best.

Keep us alll informed as to your progress...

 

G.

Edited by Grotesque
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Dear Grotesque

 

Thank you for your post and support.

 

Thanks for also explaining why the yellow signs are there.

 

I'll await my letter but I hav edecided to fight this to the end!

 

Everyone I tell, including teh ticket officer who gave me the initial advice cannot beleive what has gone on, especially as 2 different barrier gauards and another RPI all accepted the ID for the outward journey and part of the home journey. It is clear that the FGW staff do not know the policy exactly.

 

Thanks again for yoru reply.

 

I await teh giru's.

 

Kind regards

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Personally, I like to have Police Officers on my trains and I always extend every facility I can to them. Whilst there are clear rules explaining travel arrangements for members of the various police forces, I certainly prefer to have the assistance of an officer who is well disposed towards me, in case of trouble.

 

 

I hope that the OP gets this resolved without much further ado.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? :razz:

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I think the only thing that matters in this instance is that a member of staff gave permission to travel. Nuff said, BL18 specifies that as a 'defence'.

 

The wider picture is that some train companies and some police forces have written agreements. I am aware that an 'on duty' PCSO is allowed certain travel on my local route, eg, from one station to another for duty purposes, and all 'constables' are allowed travel for the reasons stated above.

 

It would be good to ask the Federation rep to clarify with 'force management' whether there is a firm agreement or just an unnoficial 'nod & wink' arrangement. The Fed Rep can do that on a 'no names' basis, and will be able to give chapter and verse on 'what the book says'.

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I know one elderly Police pensioner who still travels with all the confidence of a newly appointed Constable. The local staff just let him get on with it, he is a very pleasant and helpful chap. However, if he ever had an 'accident' there would be some very awkward questions about 'liability'. By the book, he is a fare dodger who pokes his nose in, and if he ever 'took a clump', he does not have any protection of being a 'constable'. The 'book' is there for a reason!

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I doubt there is an 'official policy' as far as FGW as concerned; and almost certainly not one that 'Customer Services' are aware of. The briefings that I mentioned could come from anyone from the (Revenue and /or Prosecutions) Head of Department to a local Depot Team Leader. Lots of Cooks and a small pan of Broth spring to mind.

 

It's worth bearing in mind that if you do 'win' (i.e., they drop) this case then FGW will probably 'batten down the hatches' and implement a Company-wide procedure re-briefing all staff on the requirement for civilian police to hold valid tickets etc. Which will affect many if not all your colleagues.

TTFN

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Dear egg12345 ,

 

I haven't replied to your PM as having read through all the replies that you have received so far, you have been given sound advice so far as I can see

 

There is no entitlement for civilian staff of any Police force to travel free of charge. Police standing orders referred to by SRPO are unequivocal in that and as someone else pointed out, the official permit, often wrongly quoted, only relates to Metropolitan Police Officers, though local agreements may exist in some areas

 

It is clear to me that you thought there was a free facility and asked at the booking office, otherwise, how would the booking clerk have known to advise you regarding this??

 

That said, the most important point is that highlighted by Wriggler7.

 

If you have got your signed statement from the Booking Clerk stating that he gave you wrong infornation, you boarded the train with authority of authorised rail staff. Therefore you were not in breach of National Railways Byelaw 18.1 and can only be charged the correct fare for your journey.

 

As long as you have that signed statement you have no problem, but do make sure always to buy a ticket in future, because the fact that you have been warned will be clear.

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Hello POldCodJA an dthelife

 

Thank you both for your replies.

 

The chap at the train station knows me from when I have used my police forces travel warrants in the past. He may have also seen my ID as it was wrapped around my wallet when I took it from my overcaot pocket. I didn't ask the policy, he mentioned it while we were chatting and so I accepted it without question, something I'll never do again!.

 

I honestly also think that if I had been a police officer the RPI chap who wouldn't accept my Police Staff ID would have let me on my way which tells me he doesn't know FGW actual policy either. It is certain that 4 people that day thought there was a policy (an RPI on the outward journey, 2 barrier guards and the initial ticket office chap). It's crazy as the ID card I showed clearly states Police STAFF not Police OFFICER.

 

You are again exactly right that no civillians get free travel and no one including officers in my force have an agreement with FGW or any other rail carrier for that matter. I know there are agreements with some bus companies but I can't name them. So the advice to me that my forces employees receive free travel is very wrong. I don't blame the chap he was onlt trying to help.

 

I have the letter signed today stating that he gave me the advice he thought was correct and that he gave this advice in good faith.

 

I'll never do this again, especially now that I know the exact policy. I'll either use a travel warrant as per my past or pay for a ticket and claim on my expenses.

 

To answer your quetion thelife. I was dressed in a black overcoat witha grey suit as I was on my way to Crown Court.

 

May I ask OldcodJA, should I have been warned, cautioned or even told what the future process was? Do you think my offer to pay was reasonable and why do you think it was refused? It was a really peculiar situation, very embarassing and I am still confused about it but reading your response and knowing that I have a signed letter in my briefcase has put my mind as ease somewhat.

 

Thank you very much indeed.

 

Kind regards

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If he had been reporting you for fare evasion I'm surprised he didn't place you under caution and had a 'Q&A' with you... maybe he only took details so as TO BE SEEN to be doing something without intending to action it further.... I may have mis-read your original post and assumed (wrongly!) that he has submitted a Witness Statement, for which, although not essential, a Caution would be 'good form', in terms of procedure.

 

Anyway and eitherway, I think it's pretty academic now! Good luck.

 

PS, apologies for previous spelling misttakes, have been up since *&!*ing 04:00 :mad2:

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