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CCJ debt sold on -- no Court notification -- What next

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Hi there

I believe a DCA has to obtain a Court notification if it buys a debt subject to a CCJ within a year.

 

If the DEBTOR doesn't receive any notification from the Court that the owner of the CCJ has been changed am I right in saying that the new DCA has no right whatsoever to collect the debt until the Court has granted the change of ownership -- and therefore during this whole period any Interest / charged that might be on the original CCA doesn't count either.

 

If the DCA eventually DOES come up with the correct paperwork can they Backdate / add on any interest during which time they have been unable to collect.

 

This whole area is a bit confusing but I understood that this practice of selling on CCJ's was either illegal or has to be done in strict protocol.

 

Is there a sort of equivalent to put the CCJ "In dispute" until it's been fixed.

 

Incidentally if they DON'T do it within a year they can't collect the debt. What happens then -- does the ORIGINAL Creditor still have the right to collect.

 

Very murky area and I'm sure some of the greedier and nastier DCA's will certainly be tryting things on here.

 

 

Cheers

jimbo

Edited by jimbo45
Typos

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I'd love to know how this works - does the court notify you of the change, can you challenge it, are there any sanctions if it isn't done in time, does it affect charging orders as well?

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I'd love to know how this works - does the court notify you of the change, can you challenge it, are there any sanctions if it isn't done in time, does it affect charging orders as well?

 

Hi there

This whole area is very messy. Strictly a Court order says A owes XXXX GBP to B. A must pay B ( note NOT C,D, or My Grandmas's cat).

 

Now if C buys the debt I'm not sure how payment can be legally enforced since you can challenge the debt saying where's the Court order -- and you've guessed it -- they can only come up with a Court order saying A owes XXXX to B.

 

The Court can vary it's order but then the DEBTOR would have to be notified of this --- otherwise C saying YOU owe me XXXX GBP has the same meaning and status as me writing to anybody at random on the electoral role saying My Grandmother's cat is empowering me to collect XXXX GBP from you.

 

I suspect that a CO must have the same restriction since it is B who has obtained a charge due to default of the original CCJ and Not C.

 

Some clarification here would be welcomed as I'm beginning to see a lot more of selling on of debts where a CO has been obtained.

 

I suspect it's because the people who obtained the CO realize that they won't get anything back possibly for YEARS, meanwhile Interest is stopped as well on most debts so they've decided to pass it on to lower levels in the pondlife who might not know the law or take a chance that the people they want to collect the debt from are ignorant too.

 

In a hugely rising property market where people were moving frequently this whole CO business seemed too good to be true for a lot of DCA's -- for a very small amount of work they were guaranteed their debt back fairly quickly.

 

However opinion has turned seriously against the use of CO's for things like Credt Card debt and in the current property market a lot of people are simply staying put for a lot longer.

 

In any case the CO is only paid after other creditors such as the Mortgage company / 2nd mortgage / other loans secured on the property if any and if there isn't sufficient equity after all this then its tough (for them, not you) since the CO is effectively attached to the property and not to the owner.

 

One you move the CO is GONE - although here again where exactly that leaves the original CCJ is a totally grey area.

Maybe we could get some proper Case Law examples of what happens.

 

 

CO's almost NEVER result in forced sales and no interest AFTER the CO has been granted can be added on for any debt subject to Consumer Credit agreements -- most debt on these forums falls into this category.

 

Interest up to the date of the CO can be added to the CO if the original CCJ allowed it as well as the court cost. THAT'S ALL THEY CAN CHARGE.

 

 

Cheers

jimbo

Edited by jimbo45

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I've seen posts by CerberusAlert quoting a twelve month window in which the new owner has to register the change of ownership of the CCJ (in fact some other searches come up with 6 months), but I can't find any reference to prove the rule. It would be useful if there was some proof as in my case it's been almost three years since the assignment without any notification from the courts or the Land Registry. The new owners are claiming to be allowed to add statutory interest even though it's a CCA debt, but are reluctant to provide statements that show it.

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Hi there

You can challenge the new owners if they don't have Court papers -- just say Prove you owe me money -- I need to see the COURT papers allowing this,

 

Of course the Court wil say you owe YYYY XXXX GBP and not the new owner so you can easily say NO COURT has told me to pay your lot.

 

Not sure of the total legality of this but presumably if you have an order from a Court to pay XXXX I don't thinhk YYYY can chip in and say pay me instead.

 

They CERTAINLY CANNOT ADD INTEREST if a charging order is in force.

 

The whole interest question on CCJ debts being "Sold" as I quoted before is a grey area and we definitely need some case law examples on this.

 

I'd just tell the new owners of the debt to Foxtrot Oscar until and unless they can produce a COURT requirement that either yu have to pay them or that the original CCJ is now in the hands of the new owner.

 

Just because they "Bought" the debt doesn't always mean they have the right to collect it.

 

For example I could "buy" illegal substances " but I still am not allwed to use them.

 

Cheers

jimbo

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Being in this position myself (CCJ sold umpteen times down the chain). No one has ever seriously asked me to pay, OC no longer exists). I have often asked the above, at the time it happened to me it seemed unheard of on CAG but, as you say, more and more of these are coming to the surface.

 

As well as all the above questions, I could add one of my own, as the 'Creditor' on my CCJ no longer exists, where do I stand? Their 'debts' may have been bought up/merged etc. but the actual creditor is not in existence, so, would that be enough grounds to get the CCJ quoshed.


Every journey begins with a single step :):)

 

Please note: I have no qualifications in this area - my advice is learned from the wonderful members of this Forum. Thanks to you all for your help.

 

If you have found my post helpful please leave a short message by clicking the star to the left of my profile - Thank You

 

The only person entitled to your Personal Finance details is a Judge not a DCA

 

Move all banking activity to another banking group if you have a dispute - your funds can be used to offset debts within the same group.

Be careful with Banking details (card/account numbers) as these can be used to take unauthorised payments.

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Hi In the same boat myself

 

my Original CCJ was from 2000 it was then bought by a company over a year later to which I was never made aware of.

 

It was then bought by another DCA over a year later to which I was made aware of, yet IN 2010 some 8YEARS later this DCA has took it back to Court to ask to be substituted as the new claimant from the original creditor to which it was granted without me being able to defend it, and now they are going for a variation order as well as trying to add statutory interest from the beginning of the original CCJ back in 2000 !!!

 

It was only when I received this DCA Application and Witness Statement for the substitution that I found out it had previously been sold in 2001.

 

So I would as you can Imagine love to tuck these people up BIG STYLE.

 

Like you all say any confirmation / facts on this issue of DCA buying a CCJ after 1 year and not receiving any notification from the Court that the owner of the CCJ had changed would be heaven on earth.

 

Tinks

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Hi there

Please any good litigation Soliitor -- we really need to see where all thgis stands in law.

 

Another litlle nasty that's raising its head again is that if you pay off a CO which is lower than the DCA alleges the CCJ is for they can attempt to hassle you for the outstanding CCJ amount -- what a nightmare this whole business is.

 

Waiting greatfully for some experienced solicitor to clarify these points.

 

Cheers

jimbo

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We definately need clarification on this.

 

It would appear from threads, that 3rd part DCA's are buying up old CCJ's (probably for next to nothing), where there has been no enforcement or contact for many many years, substituting themselves as the claimant without having any docs to prove they can, but the whole process goes through undefended because the plaintiff is only made aware AFTER it has been granted. And then they apply for a charging order.

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As you say, clarification needed, anyone?bump.gif


Every journey begins with a single step :):)

 

Please note: I have no qualifications in this area - my advice is learned from the wonderful members of this Forum. Thanks to you all for your help.

 

If you have found my post helpful please leave a short message by clicking the star to the left of my profile - Thank You

 

The only person entitled to your Personal Finance details is a Judge not a DCA

 

Move all banking activity to another banking group if you have a dispute - your funds can be used to offset debts within the same group.

Be careful with Banking details (card/account numbers) as these can be used to take unauthorised payments.

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And yet another perfectly usefull and informative thread (Like many here) started with the best of intentions is ignored, or receives bad advice from people who pretend to know the law better than they really do.

And then the poor people following the advice end up wishing they had not because they end up in real trouble.

Last entry on this was 7th march 2011 ???

Not one reply from those in the know ???

To all the good people out there, be very very careful as to what you believe and to what your being told.

Its often the case your being told what you want, or would like to believe but the truth out in the real world will bite you badly on the rear.

Does anyone out there have experience of when a county court judge has said to you (as a litigant in person)

Well done for following CAGs advice. Those guys really know there stuff. Certainly has stopped this DCA in its tracks. ????

PLEASE prove mean wrong experts.

Lets see some long awaited feedback that is accurate and correct. And really CAN be used by debtors, litigants in person, whatever, with confidence on this very valid thread.

And please dont have a go at the messenger, I might have some valid points here if you think about it.

A lot of people do look up to you guys for advise on how to survive the lions den.

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This has been dealt with at length, on other threads. I'm not sure what your agenda is in bringing up old threads in order to criticise, but unless you have something constructive to add you are likely to attract moderation.

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Thank you for your reply.

 

A search on google will lead to this and other threads.

 

My point is from the last entry in March of 2011.

Not one person yourself included has replied to it, or given advice towards it.

 

If other threads are available that deal with this particuler issue.

Then it would be nice to see a link to those threads posted here.

If thats criticism, then its meant to be constructive.

And at least it has attracted your attention good sir.

 

It would be very much appreciated if this subject could receive some form of clarification and advice.

Sorry if I have ruffled feathers. I know your not the bad boys, and I know you mean well.

 

But unless advice is accurate and not subject to speculation.

It can have serious consequences on someones life. And DCA's just love that.

 

Please good sir, where are these other threads.

And thank you for responding.

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Shame if a perfectly reasonable question is moderated.

 

This thread is where google sends someone if they are looking for sold/assigned CCJ's Its the top thread.

 

I came across it 6 months ago. I was looking for the answer. I am still not sure now. The advice is conflicting beyond belief. Some say everything goes to the buyer CCJ included some say it has to be registered to the buyer by the court.

 

What I do know there is a hell of alot of similar questions being asked and no consistant advice being given anywhere

 

If its a question that cant be answered then that would be ok. Least we would know then and google would be directing people in similar positions to a thread that would be helpful

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Sadly another one that gives questionable answers especialy with regards to a cca contract being terminated the moment a ccj is in place.

How wonderful that would be if it were true.

Heres the link

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?201853-Old-CCJ-(1998)-still-valid-adding-interest/page3

 

Once again it ends with no real answers.

 

Sorry it needs to be said.

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SILENCE :-(

 

It speaks volumes does it not.

No advice, no response, just silence.

When clarification is needed, and on this and attached threads it certainly does.

You get nothing.

 

Sorry I forgot.

There was a response. Be quiet, how dare you question us.

Or face the wrath of moderation.

 

Please if you do respond, let it be something worthy, don't threaten, and be

facetious or sarcastic. The points raised are valid, they need clarification.

If you don't know or are unsure please say so.

 

I give up on this now, let those reading this judge for themselves. :|

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What exactly are you asking? I can’t see a question anywhere.


“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

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It is my understanding that interest can only be added to a judgment debt if the order allows it.

 

So - do you have the paperwork from the court, the General Order that is issued after the hearing which states exactly what can and cannot be added ?


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It is my understanding that interest can only be added to a judgment debt if the order allows it.

 

So - do you have the paperwork from the court, the General Order that is issued after the hearing which states exactly what can and cannot be added ?

 

Ok lets try and simplify this a little.

In the case between Director General office of fair trading vs 1st national bank the lords preciding stated that a clause in the 1st national bank cca contract allowing for contractual interest to be added before as well as after the issue of a county court judgement. Was fair.

Although the consequences of such a clause gave rise to grave concerns. However there were sufficient powers within the existing court system to deal with the fairness issues attached to such a clause.

 

Are you saying that unless that clause ie the charging of contractual interest is specifically mentioned in the judgement order. Then such a clause no longer exists or would be enforcable.

Throughout this thread it appears that this is the crux of what requires clarification. And to date non has been recieved.

I am sure you will agree its an important one, which is why numerous people have asked for the legal bods to reply.

It is so important a point that guesswork has to be eliminated.

CB is your understanding an educated guess or a statement of FACT. Thats whats needed. The FACTS of the matter.

Either the interest Can or cannot be claimed dependant on the wording of the court order. Does the court order over rule the original contract. ???

 

Hope you can see where I am coming from.

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The interest has to be claimed and awarded by the court, because the CCJ supersedes any agreement under the CCA – in effect, the judgment becomes the ‘contract’, the chose in law. A claimant cannot arbitrarily charge interest after judgment if it was not claimed.


“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

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I think cerebusalert has already stated - FACT - that the Judgment order replaces the original agreement. The Judgment order then becomes the agreement, the terms of which require absolute adhering to.

 

I think what is required in order to clarify matters is sight of the Judgment order - that way it can be established with greater accuracy what has been ordered.

 

donkeyB has said what I want to say.. with greater clarity :lol:

  • Confused 1

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy -

HERE

2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated -

Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Snap, CB!


“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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I think your real concern is about the charging of interest, and whether the assignee can continue to charge a high rate of interest.

 

If the first instance, as described here, the answer is yes.

 

However,

you could make a complaint to the OFT or the FSA about this, under CPUTR legislation.

Not sure what response you’d get,

but you would have to argue that the charging of interest in this way was buried in the small print, and not made clear at the outset

– and therefore you are now being treated unfairly.

 

 

Depends how long ago the agreement was originally signed.

Alternatively, you could apply to the court for an change to your payments, on the same basis, but this would effectively be a very late appeal on the judgment and would involve costs, and I’m not altogether sure you’d be successful.


“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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Thank you both.

 

Its not just me but many others who will find your replies extremely useful.

At least now, when google directs people to this thread they will find answers that are deemed statements of Fact, and thus give clarity in there conclusions.:-)

 

As said the saga with O.F.T. vs 1st National was a real shocker to a lot of people.

But all is not lost.

 

From what you say the written cca contract is of no importance once a ccj has been registered.

Its the terms that are set out in the ccj that take precedence.

 

So an interest after judgement clause and the percentage rate of that interest have to be mentioned in the judgement order to be valid.

Have I got that right.

 

Because I can guarantee the DCA's who purchase such ccj's from 1st national are deffo going to try and kid you otherwise.

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style="text-align:center;"> Please note that this topic has not had any new posts for the last 660 days.

If you are trying to post a different story then you should start your own new thread. Posting on this thread is likely to mean that you won't get the help and advice that you need.

If you are trying to post information which is relevant to the story in this thread then please flag it up to the site team and they will allow you to post.

Thank you
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