Benefit Fraud for Cohabiing HELP!!

[mart9012]

My girlfriend was called in for an interview after an anonymous call by our neighbour. It wasn't under caution but she was asked numerous questions and these were written on a "living as husband and wife" form. My g/f claims she wasn't given any opportunity to read it and just signed it as she isn't good with authority. Subsequently, due to our MP Vince Cables intervention a copy of the form was sent to her.

 

I am named as the "Other Person" and my details appear on the form. My girlfriend has apparently told them I have been staying with her at her flat for up to a week at a time although in recent months this has been only about 2 days a week. She then apparently told them she stays with me for the other 3 to 5 days of the week. She did tell them we don't support each other. She also mentioned that we had opened a joint bank account as we had planned to move in together. I dispute these statements as I find it hard to believe she would say those things.

 

The problem with the above is that it isn't completely true. My girlfriend has a mental health illness that causes her to be highly agoraphobic and very anxious in social situations. Thus she finds it very difficult to do anything outside her flat on her own. During periods when she has been suffering with high levels of anxiety she needs a lot of support so I have spent more time with her but we don't spend a whole week in each other's company ever.

 

My girlfriend has a housing association flat, she was getting benefits and pays all her own bills. I have my own house 40 miles away, get my own disability benefits and pay my own bills. No mail goes to her flat in my name and I don't support her financially in any way. I have my own life and strong ties to where I live and she has similar for herself. It seems they are accusing her of splitting the week between the two properties.

 

The result was that they claim we have been cohabiting since the day we met and stopped her benefits entirely. My g/f sought legal advice and appeal was made. Supporting letters from her mental health team and others seem to have been not considered. The benefit fraud people considered the appeal and their decision remains the same. My g/f was forced to live without any income from Oct 2010 to current. She has been forced to apply for ESA since the appeal decision and she is waiting to hear about her claim.

 

I'm angry because while I do stay over occasionally and she does stay at mine occasionally we are certainly not cohabiting. I haven't even been contacted despite my name being listed as the other person! We weren't staying over each others homes at all in the beginning but still they are saying we have and require her to pay an overpayment of £8500. This is on top of the massive debts she has built up for all the services she has to pay for. Mobile phones are cut off, television service (important for someone who doesn't go out alone) is cut off and her internet is affected.. all contract services she wasn't simply able to stop. Xmas was dismal as due to her having no income she needed loans and help constantly just to buy food. Luckily the Salvation Army made a food donation as well.

 

Is there anything I can do? This form (LTAHAW/CP) states I am living with her as husband and wife and I definately am not!! My g/f has a solicitor she found on the internet but she is based in Wales and to be honest hasn't been much help. I don't qualify for legal aid as I own a house otherwise I would get some letters sent.

[maroondevo52]

Hello and Welcome,

 

I've moved your thread to the appropriate Forum.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[jabba jones]

This case has been dealt with by the compliance section not fraud.

 

Your girlfriend needs to make an appeal against the disallowance. The form you already have a copy of has been used to make the decision so she needs to explain the true version of events using that form as a guide.

 

She only has 1 month from the decision date to make the appeal & it sounds like it might be way past that date by now, so she would have to explain why it's late & hope the decision maker accepts it.

[Nystagmite]

The amount of nights is irrelevant. They look at things like joint bank accounts, bills in joint names, etc.

 

Can you help her case by proving that you don't live together full stop? IE, whose name(s) are on the electoral register? Whose names are bills in? Do you have this joint account she speaks of?

[jadeybags]

It's really unusual for that amount of overpayment not to be prosecuted. Or atleast called in for an interview under caution. Bizarre. I agree about appealing, also she needs to get a solicitor that specialises in welfare benefit, not just offers general advice on it. The CAB do that, & that's no good if she hasn't got any money to live on. Has she been in touch with the Welfare rights people?

Go to this place & put her area in & specify benefits/welfare & it should give you a list of legal aid solicitors in her area. It'll also say if she is entitled to legal aid, I think it has a calculator on it, which she will because she has no income!

http://www.communitylegaladvice.org.uk/en/directory/directorysearch.jsp

[supermam]

Oh i know the feeling well! I'm being accused of the same, am innocent and waiting for an interview under caution! I dont see why you don't get to put your point across as your name is on those forms also, surely for them to be considered, you would have had to sign them also? x

[jabba jones]

It's really unusual for that amount of overpayment not to be prosecuted. Or atleast called in for an interview under caution. Bizarre. I agree about appealing, also she needs to get a solicitor that specialises in welfare benefit, not just offers general advice on it. The CAB do that, & that's no good if she hasn't got any money to live on. Has she been in touch with the Welfare rights people?

 

There was no IUC & no prosecution because as I've already said it's not the Fraud section that have dealt with it, it's Compliance. I can 100% guarantee that the Fraud section would have no interest in this case & have downgraded it to Compliance.

 

Compliance do not have the powers to investigate or prosecute anyone. The whole benefit decision has been done on the power of what was written on the LT form that was completed during the interview.

 

The only thing that can be done now is appeal against the decision & I'm not sure how a solicitor is going to help with that.

[jadeybags]

There was no IUC & no prosecution because as I've already said it's not the Fraud section that have dealt with it, it's Compliance. I can 100% guarantee that the Fraud section would have no interest in this case & have downgraded it to Compliance.

 

Compliance do not have the powers to investigate or prosecute anyone. The whole benefit decision has been done on the power of what was written on the LT form that was completed during the interview.

 

The only thing that can be done now is appeal against the decision & I'm not sure how a solicitor is going to help with that.

 

So the compliance team decided that they had been living as a couple for x amount of time,since the begining apparently, not notified them of that fact, but oh well, just pay back 8 grand. Sorry, but unless councils work very differently, that doesn't make sense. Especially from what people have posted on here..

[jabba jones]

Compliance interviewed this person & completed the LT form during the interview. The I/S decision maker has then made the disallowance decision using this form. This is normal practice for Compliance LT cases.

 

I'm not going to go into why JCP FIS wouldn't be interested in this case because I'm not comfortable with giving away too much precedural information when I'm not sure if it's already in the public domain & in theory could be used to help someone commit fraud in the future.

 

But all the info I needed is in the first message of this thread. FIS would not be able to get a sanction from this case & would have passed it to Compliance to deal with.

[jadeybags]

So in theory the client could dispute the claim based on there not being enough evidence for the fraud team to actually prosecute them for?

All seems a bit underhand.

[jabba jones]

It has nothing to do with the evidence. There are certain circumstances that dictate a FIS LT investigation can not continue no matter what the evidence is.

 

If someone else (like Erika?) can explain why this is, then I'll accept that the reasons are in the public domain & confirm them, but otherwise that's your lot I'm afraid.

[mart9012]

I did google on how this stuff is decided and there are a number of questions for the form to decide probability. Are you seen by others as a couple? What do you do when with your boyfriend? How do you spend your leisure time? Odd questions really because you can be a pretty close couple without ever sharing a bed. On this sort of evidence I must be cohabiting with a lot of women.

 

To be honest I'm frustrated and angry about it all. The worst is that they stopped her benefits entirely for some 10 weeks. She gets DLA but it isn't enough to cover her bills or rent and she was getting letters from everyone adding fines to her bills and threatening being cut off. Even the housing people were threatening eviction. She wasn't eligible for any emergency loans, hardship loans or anything. So I was forced to help support her from my benefits, her mother brought food over and we scrounged all we could. In effect they forced us into doing the things we were falsely accused of!

 

I'm somewhat confused how she and I are cohabiting yet I am unaffected by it all. My benefits haven't been touched. Who is she cohabiting with then? I want to get involved myself to tell them that my role in her life is largely as a carer. She doesn't go out on her own, her anxiety issues prevent that. She needs to go to her therapy some distance away and just wouldn't go without me with her. Her mental health issues do cause crises involving attempted suicides when she is especially depressed so she does need more care than the local authority can provide.

 

To answer some questions I was asked.. My g/f lives in a flat provided by a housing association in her name only and her rent is paid by HB. All bills are solely in her name and she has strong ties to her local community. I own my home some distance away and I pay my own bills. I only have an overnight bag's worth of clothing at her place and she the same at mine. The only thing we did have in joint names was a bank account I set up for when we were planning to move in to my place together. Unfortunately issues with her young daughter and social services (mental health issues again) prevented that from happening. The account was closed without ever being used. We don't live together but I usually pick her up and spend the weekends at my house returning to her flat on a Monday morning in time to get her to her therapy sessions. Generally I go home on a Tuesday morning and return Friday morning to again take her to her second therapy session. I only spend more time with her if she needs the support.

 

Is this really cohabiting??

Edited March 2, 2011 by mart9012
Typos!

[jadeybags]

I did google on how this stuff is decided and there are a number of questions for the form to decide probability. Are you seen by others as a couple? What do you do when with your boyfriend? How do you spend your leisure time? Odd questions really because you can be a pretty close couple without ever sharing a bed. On this sort of evidence I must be cohabiting with a lot of women.

 

To be honest I'm frustrated and angry about it all. The worst is that they stopped her benefits entirely for some 10 weeks. She gets DLA but it isn't enough to cover her bills or rent and she was getting letters from everyone adding fines to her bills and threatening being cut off. Even the housing people were threatening eviction. She wasn't eligible for any emergency loans, hardship loans or anything. So I was forced to help support her from my benefits, her mother brought food over and we scrounged all we could. In effect they forced us into doing the things we were falsely accused of!

 

I'm somewhat confused how she and I are cohabiting yet I am unaffected by it all. My benefits haven't been touched. Who is she cohabiting with then? I want to get involved myself to tell them that my role in her life is largely as a carer. She doesn't go out on her own, her anxiety issues prevent that. She needs to go to her therapy some distance away and just wouldn't go without me with her. Her mental health issues do cause crises involving attempted suicides when she is especially depressed so she does need more care than the local authority can provide.

 

To answer some questions I was asked.. My g/f lives in a flat provided by a housing association in her name only and her rent is paid by HB. All bills are solely in her name and she has strong ties to her local community. I own my home some distance away and I pay my own bills. I only have an overnight bag's worth of clothing at her place and she the same at mine. The only thing we did have in joint names was a bank account I set up for when we were planning to move in to my place together. Unfortunately issues with her young daughter and social services (mental health issues again) prevented that from happening. The account was closed without ever being used. We don't live together but I usually pick her up and spend the weekends at my house returning to her flat on a Monday morning in time to get her to her therapy sessions. Generally I go home on a Tuesday morning and return Friday morning to again take her to her second therapy session. I only spend more time with her if she needs the support.

 

Is this really cohabiting??

 

Well I wish I was an expert, but i'm not, it doesn't look like cohabiting to me, but only they know what they class it as. I sure hope you can get some help, as that's an awful lot of money for someone with your girlfriends health problems to deal with. Feel for you all xxx

[Life-Goes-On]

As a non expert two things stand out. First you did set up a bank account together, second it was issues with SS and her daughter that stopped you moving in together.

 

Those two suggest you are far more just boyfriend & girlfriend, so in the eyes or the benefit dept a couple.

 

You don't have to cohabitant for them to class you as a couple.

[mart9012]

I can see your point but they were investigating living as husband and wife / civil couple. We are neither of those and yes we were at the point of moving in together and it was largely the stress of her situation that stopped it. We are not at that point anymore. But the fact remains that we live apart in completely separate homes and share no finance or co-ownership of anything. Are the benefits people saying that a sexual relationship is considered living as husband and wife? If we go out as a couple (ie.. boyfriend and girlfriend) are we then forced to combine our lives completely? Financially we would be far better off living together, less income from benefits but far less bills to pay also, so this isn't about finance. How strange is the situation that people have their own lives but spend time with each other in a relationship?

[Life-Goes-On]

The trouble I see it is you have linked yourself together financially by getting a joint account.

Have you got your Credit file report? This could show you linked for 6 years after the closer of the account.

 

 

BTW I'm not agreeing that you should be classed as a couple, just trying to advise you of the very little I know about the rules.

[jadeybags]

I can see your point but they were investigating living as husband and wife / civil couple. We are neither of those and yes we were at the point of moving in together and it was largely the stress of her situation that stopped it. We are not at that point anymore. But the fact remains that we live apart in completely separate homes and share no finance or co-ownership of anything. Are the benefits people saying that a sexual relationship is considered living as husband and wife? If we go out as a couple (ie.. boyfriend and girlfriend) are we then forced to combine our lives completely? Financially we would be far better off living together, less income from benefits but far less bills to pay also, so this isn't about finance. How strange is the situation that people have their own lives but spend time with each other in a relationship?

 

It's bizarre isn't it. I know that it certainly didn't used to be as bad as it is now. I remember when I split with the kids dad in 2000, & applied for imcome support, someone came out to do the forms with me, we still had a joint account, I dont remember them mentioning anything about that. It didn't get used, but we got on fine after we split & just left it there. I'm sure for a while his post still came to mine, I was even paying his 8 pounds a month life insurance for about a year after as he was so skint renting a room! Had to put a stop to that though, half his luck me carrying that on lol He even used to stop here every other weekend when his flat mate wouldn't have the kids there, & I would go out clubbing with a mate & stop at hers. They probably just didn't have the resources back then to look into so much. But I could have been facing similar if this all happened nowdays.

Have you tried contacting a legal aid solicitor? Sorry if you have already mentioned that up there. I know they are looking to stop legal aid in benefit cases, just another kick in the teeth for the poor, but I dont think it's happened yet.

[Life-Goes-On]

I can see a bit of a difference with your joint account jb, I'm guessing you set it up while you were still as a couple.

[jadeybags]

I can see a bit of a difference with your joint account jb, I'm guessing you set it up while you were still as a couple.

 

Yes, but they could have questioned why we still left it open after we split?

[Life-Goes-On]

True.

 

You really have to be so careful these days

One innocent slip up and end up costing you dear.

[supermam]

True.

 

You really have to be so careful these days

One innocent slip up and end up costing you dear.

 

 

 

Soooo true! your life is just not your own anymore, when you sign those benefit forms you sign over your life for all to pick at! x

[jadeybags]

True.

 

You really have to be so careful these days

One innocent slip up and end up costing you dear.

 

For sure. That's what I mean, you dont see something as wrong, so dont register that it wont always look that way. I think that's what has changed these days, little innocent things are being questioned that wouldn't have been years ago. Must be costing a fortune.

[jadeybags]

Soooo true! your life is just not your own anymore, when you sign those benefit forms you sign over your life for all to pick at! x

 

Yes I think even after you have got off that rollercoaster & stopped claiming, you're still in the system. Not that they'll be sticking their nose in, but just knowing your life isn't ever going to be private again completely is horrible.

I envy the people that have never had to claim any benefits.

[mart9012]

It's nonsensical. Their rules have no bearing on the real world. To me, living as husband and wife means sharing a home as a commited couple in the same way a married couple do. That is why these rules were supposed to be about, treating people living as a married couple in the same way true married couples are. Why can we not be a "couple" who also have separate lives and homes? Our finances are totally separate and we don't support each other financially at all.

[jadeybags]

It's nonsensical. Their rules have no bearing on the real world. To me, living as husband and wife means sharing a home as a commited couple in the same way a married couple do. That is why these rules were supposed to be about, treating people living as a married couple in the same way true married couples are. Why can we not be a "couple" who also have separate lives and homes? Our finances are totally separate and we don't support each other financially at all.[/QUOTE]

 

You can, & once you have proved that, it'll be fine. But it's the getting to that point isn't it. There is only one situation where it's not complex & that's if you are a single mum or dad on income support imo. After that it starts getting too complicated for some benefit assessors to cope with. If you meet someone, you need to decide pretty quickly if you're going to move in together, & I mean really quickly, or not date at all, or come off benefits. I dont think there is any grey areas in between anymore, unless you're prepared to have your private life picked to bits. I'm so glad I have been single for 3 years, otherwise I am sure they would sling that one at me at the moment.

Just remember, they make a mistake, you'll be the patsy & pay for it in one way or another.

It's a rich mans world basically.

Let's hope our kids do well & end up in a nice high paying job & they can live in peace ey.