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benefit fraud investigation! help! please!


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I went through this in 2002- simply for an administrative cockup at the council offices.

I was claiming benefits while I was unemployed- once I started work, I notified the council of a change in circumstances- by letter (recorded).

My landlord still continued to get rent payments for about 3 months after- which he didn't cash, and posted back to the council with a covering letter.

 

I heard nothing until a letter from an Benefits Investigator dropped through the door, asking me to attend and "interview" under PACE 1984 (Police And Criminal Evidence act)- which is of course under caution.

 

The interview itself was pretty much like a Police interview- and had a bit of a 'good cop' - 'bad cop' feel too it; one interviewer asked a few simple questions; the other blatantly accused me of outright fraud.

Even after the fact I had notified them of my changes, and that my landlord had returned the payments.

The interviewer even went to the depths of accusing my employer of "tipping me" off about the investigation. Which was total rubbish.

In short- it seemed they were trying to bully me to just confess. Which I wasn't.

However- I was in there for 1 hour; and awiated their decision by letter.

 

3 weeks later, I recieved another letter, to return for a 2nd interview. Which I did- this time the quiet interviewer was replaced with someone else- just as quiet. And I was subjected to the accusations again.

This time, I chucked a file full of paperwork in front of them, showing copies of letters and correspondence between myself and the council and asked them to have a look through it. Which they didn't.

That interview ended on the same note; about a month later I recieved a "tail between the legs" type letter saying they had closed to case, as my letter notifying the council of my changes had been sat on top of a filing cabinet for 6 months and not put onto the computer.

 

Now- my advice to both of you (if you are anywhere near South Yorkshire I'd come with you myself!) is to answer ALL the questions you can, and ensure your facts are straight (you are allowed to take notes etc in)- as if you slip up, they'll will home in on that.

If you answer ALL the questions- they will usually end the interview; but a classic interviewing tactic is to return to a couple of points they asked you about earlier to try and trip you up.

 

The funny thing is, while I pointed out to the Interviewers that they should spend their time catching up with people who are blatantly claiming- and I could name a few.

They had the cheek to ask me if I could disclose all of that information, so they could investigate it- I advised them that it was what they were paid to do- not me.

 

But I stress- get your facts straight before you go in, take some notes etc- so they can't trip you up.

You can get up and leave the interview at any moment in time- you are NOT under arrest- just CAUTION, which is totally different- the caution is basically a "be careful what you say, we're recording it to use in evidence".

 

They make two recordings of the interview; 1 they keep (a working one), the other, you (or your solicitor) should take with you- keep that safe, just in case they call you back weeks/months later (you can keep your facts straight then too)

 

I hope this advice helps- keep us posted on how you get on!

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I went through this in 2002- simply for an administrative cockup at the council offices.

I was claiming benefits while I was unemployed- once I started work, I notified the council of a change in circumstances- by letter (recorded).

My landlord still continued to get rent payments for about 3 months after- which he didn't cash, and posted back to the council with a covering letter.

 

I heard nothing until a letter from an Benefits Investigator dropped through the door, asking me to attend and "interview" under PACE 1984 (Police And Criminal Evidence act)- which is of course under caution.

 

The interview itself was pretty much like a Police interview- and had a bit of a 'good cop' - 'bad cop' feel too it; one interviewer asked a few simple questions; the other blatantly accused me of outright fraud.

Even after the fact I had notified them of my changes, and that my landlord had returned the payments.

The interviewer even went to the depths of accusing my employer of "tipping me" off about the investigation. Which was total rubbish.

In short- it seemed they were trying to bully me to just confess. Which I wasn't.

However- I was in there for 1 hour; and awiated their decision by letter.

 

3 weeks later, I recieved another letter, to return for a 2nd interview. Which I did- this time the quiet interviewer was replaced with someone else- just as quiet. And I was subjected to the accusations again.

This time, I chucked a file full of paperwork in front of them, showing copies of letters and correspondence between myself and the council and asked them to have a look through it. Which they didn't.

That interview ended on the same note; about a month later I recieved a "tail between the legs" type letter saying they had closed to case, as my letter notifying the council of my changes had been sat on top of a filing cabinet for 6 months and not put onto the computer.

 

Now- my advice to both of you (if you are anywhere near South Yorkshire I'd come with you myself!) is to answer ALL the questions you can, and ensure your facts are straight (you are allowed to take notes etc in)- as if you slip up, they'll will home in on that.

If you answer ALL the questions- they will usually end the interview; but a classic interviewing tactic is to return to a couple of points they asked you about earlier to try and trip you up.

 

The funny thing is, while I pointed out to the Interviewers that they should spend their time catching up with people who are blatantly claiming- and I could name a few.

They had the cheek to ask me if I could disclose all of that information, so they could investigate it- I advised them that it was what they were paid to do- not me.

 

But I stress- get your facts straight before you go in, take some notes etc- so they can't trip you up.

You can get up and leave the interview at any moment in time- you are NOT under arrest- just CAUTION, which is totally different- the caution is basically a "be careful what you say, we're recording it to use in evidence".

 

They make two recordings of the interview; 1 they keep (a working one), the other, you (or your solicitor) should take with you- keep that safe, just in case they call you back weeks/months later (you can keep your facts straight then too)

 

I hope this advice helps- keep us posted on how you get on!

 

So glad you posted all that! Well, I think this is why my dad told me to just answer the fact at hand at the time, because he knows I can waffle a bit! Because I have been through the story soooooo many times with people in the last 2 weeks it has now got a bit boring, but I need to stay focused & just answer what they ask, in a short sentence. Take the tape away & find a solicitor if need be.

As you say, we dont have to stay there, I am keeping that bit in the front of my mind!

I dont doubt that most solicitors would rather just have what someone is accused of in front of them, without having to sort out the misconstrued chat that gets in the middle of it.

Anyway, here's to hoping supermom & I wont have to think about solicitors! We can but hope x

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I can babble a lot (see previous posting)!!

 

You can get up and leave the interview- however, I think they could use that against you if they wanted to- such as "leaving the interview just as the nitty gritty questions were asked".

In both of my interviews- I attended them myself. Best of luck if you do!

However- I was told by a reliable source that answering all the questions does help you out. Avoiding questions and walking out whenever, doesn't.

 

If they choose to go down the bullying route- a questioning tactic is to confront you with the facts- make it sound worse than it is and more or less blatantly accuse you of the crime.

 

Things they look for is slip ups, contridiction, slip of the tongues, and avoiding certain words- (I am reliably informed- amazing what you learn in the film biz!) that when criminals are questioned (not saying you are one!) they tend to avoid using certain words to do with the crime they are accused- such as "Fraud", "Cheat", "Steal" or whatever.

So they will ask you your side of the case, take notes, and then repeat the nitty facts- and if you slip up they are one you!

 

I find it daft that many of the politicians who should be questioned for fiddling expenses haven't had to put up with this, apart from a few small fish who have been locked up.

 

Best of luck, and keep us posted!

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Thank you for your advice. i will definately be careful not to say more than i need to! I just wish i knew what i was facing before the event as i'm pretty sure its the fact that he's registered my address aganst my wishes with his employers but i can't say what else he may have done, and i know how things can be twisted to make me look guilty. I'm hoping that the fact that he applied for legal aid and had a letter from his landlady at the time to prove his residence will be enough, as well as the crime ref number and the fact that i've been returning post. I hope that they can check this directly with legal aid and that i'm not expected to go to him for proof of his residence elsewhere! xx

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I can babble a lot (see previous posting)!!

 

You can get up and leave the interview- however, I think they could use that against you if they wanted to- such as "leaving the interview just as the nitty gritty questions were asked".

In both of my interviews- I attended them myself. Best of luck if you do!

However- I was told by a reliable source that answering all the questions does help you out. Avoiding questions and walking out whenever, doesn't.

 

If they choose to go down the bullying route- a questioning tactic is to confront you with the facts- make it sound worse than it is and more or less blatantly accuse you of the crime.

 

Things they look for is slip ups, contridiction, slip of the tongues, and avoiding certain words- (I am reliably informed- amazing what you learn in the film biz!) that when criminals are questioned (not saying you are one!) they tend to avoid using certain words to do with the crime they are accused- such as "Fraud", "Cheat", "Steal" or whatever.

So they will ask you your side of the case, take notes, and then repeat the nitty facts- and if you slip up they are one you!

 

I find it daft that many of the politicians who should be questioned for fiddling expenses haven't had to put up with this, apart from a few small fish who have been locked up.

 

Best of luck, and keep us posted!

 

 

Well I have no intention of not attending the interview myself, at the moment I dont feel I have done anything wrong.

So we need to mention fraud & cheat a lot, ok LOL

As for the politicians, bankers, Vodafone etc, there is no point in going there! A woman at work was saying that this with me has her thinking she needs to be careful about her singing, she does that about once every couple of months for cash. I said to her, dont be worrying about that now, tax investigators have been cut & benefit ones increased. You could avoid tax as much as you like at the moment & wont be looked in to! lol

 

When you said Biz, all I could think of was Viz LOL you're probably too young to remember that but it was so funny. Well, to me it was. Never really grew up haha. Money saving tips were comical to me, look up top tips Viz on google. Then you'll see my mentality lol

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I remember Viz very well. I still see the odd copy too- it amuses me that people get paid to produce it- I could sit there all day and do that. :razz:

 

Seriously though- if you have the proof you say; there really shouldn't be an issue.

Just present them with the evidence you have- it's then up to them to prove you different.

If by some obscure random chance it did get to court- it sounds like it'd get thrown out anyway once you prevent your evidence.

 

If there are issues between yourself and your ex, make that a point in the interview- and that you can't / won't contact him because of those issues.

 

It seems like your ex has told his employer your address, the employer has notifed the NI / Tax office who could have cross referenced it with the Benefits office.

However- it is perfectly legal to have post/paperwork forwarded to an address that you don't live at (providing you have consent from the actual occupant):

How'd you think Long Distance Truckers who live most of the year in their trucks get paperwork/banks accounts etc? Some of them forward them to a family member.:roll:

 

Don''t get me started on Politicians :mad2:

 

The "issues" are non of their business anyway- and like I said, it's up to them to prove you wrong.

 

They may contact your ex and interview him too- however if it was him who made the accusation, I doubt it would look too good in court having the informant who also would be a potential witness cross examined under caution by a couple of DWP Nazi stormtroopers.:???:

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Thank you for your advice. i will definately be careful not to say more than i need to! I just wish i knew what i was facing before the event as i'm pretty sure its the fact that he's registered my address aganst my wishes with his employers but i can't say what else he may have done, and i know how things can be twisted to make me look guilty. I'm hoping that the fact that he applied for legal aid and had a letter from his landlady at the time to prove his residence will be enough, as well as the crime ref number and the fact that i've been returning post. I hope that they can check this directly with legal aid and that i'm not expected to go to him for proof of his residence elsewhere! xx

 

 

Everything you have said there makes perfect sense to people like me & numerous others reading it. But we probably weren't bullied at school, my mates definition of a benefit fraud investigator lol

Any number of those things could be thrown at you in that room, so at least you're expecting it. And as you say, you can give them evidence of things. I have seen someone that did live with someone but claim as a single parent get found NOT GUILTY in court, recently. And it grates my cheese big time. It was 45k of benefit fraud, they had relitives purger themselves to say he was living with them & not her but he wasn't! You cant tell me they hadn't been watching them for some time to gather evidence, but they were still found not guilty. She isn't on the benefits anymore, that's something I guess! But it just goes to show that a few letters, that you tried to put a stop to yourself & have made very obvious movements to shove this person off you, doesn't point to a very good case of benefit fraud.

Just stick to what you have said on here. You can only tell the truth, what more do they want, blood?!

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Hey guys!! good news!!! Cased closed! Here's a summary.....

 

I went in to be greeted by rather moody looking lady. She cautioned me, made me sign to say i accept the caution, explained the caution etc.

Then she asked me about the benefits i recieve and if there's any change in circumatance i had failed to declare. To which i replied no.

Then she asked what changes i thought i should notify them of... i felt 12 years old lol!

Then she asked a whole lot of questions about my son's sperm donor (the one i believe reported me, he's just been nailed by the CSA)

Did i recieve maintenance, did he have contact, do i know where he live, where he works? ER... NO!

She didn't ask a single question about my daughters sperm donor..... Thanks for the confirmation!!

Anyhow, she said to me "well obviously you're in a relationship as that's why you've been called in!" Me: "er... no!"

Her face dropped. So i said to her that i had been in a relationship and that it had ended last year, she asked me when, i said november. Again, her face hit the floor. I realised at this point that she had obviously had the report after we had finished. so i was honest. She asked how long we had been together, how serious the relationship had been, whether we had lived together, who he was, where he worked and where he lives (i didn't know and explained about the 999 call). Then she asked about the rats lol! (i got rats for the kids on the condition he would clean them cos i couldn't stand them and when we finished i asked him to take them cos they freaked me out, he did!) That actually made me giggle because it only confirmed it was the ex's parents that had called them! she was quite amused by this also! I told her honestly that the relationship had ended badly and that i'd had the police involved, gave her the date, she didn't want the crime reference number. Then she said " ah well, i may as well stp the tape as its obvious you haven't done anything wrong" she stopped the tape, told me that normally it would be sent to a decision maker but she wasn't going to bother as she was satisfied that nothing was amiss and was closing the case. We then had a conversation about loopy ex's and she told me that her daughter had recently got out of a relationship with a nutter. I told her about the pregnancy and she told me that the best thing i could do was to cut him off as he clearly had issues and he wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court anyway given everything that had happened!!!! I then went on to say that i knew that it was my son's grandparents that had reported it, that the csa had warned me and that given that they had given no consideration to how any of this affected him i was going to cut contact with them. Her reply? "I don't blame you!" It actually felt as though she wanted me to know that it was them that had reported me, not that i doubted it for a minute anyway.

The relief right now is enormous. After initially being quite serious she was actually a really lovely down to earth lady. I actually think she knew from the off that i had done nothing wrong and the fact that i offered the information about the relationship shocked her, honesty is the best policy. I am quite suprised that they interviewed me under caution given that the only thing they had was a phonecall, it seemed a bit severe. I worried myself sick for two wks and actually came out of that room laughing! she also told me that for anything like this the worst thing they will do it sanction benefits, it only ever goes to court if the fraud is severe and then it is extremely rare to get a prison sentence! This came about after i had said to her that The Grandparents clearly hadn't thought of the consequences on my children if i had been commiting fraud and was sent to prison. She told me it would never come to that, they don't work that way.

I want to thank all you guys on here for your fantastic support this last few weeks, you have kept me calm and sane and a shoulder to cry on! thank you!!

To anyone facing a similar situation i would say don't over think it as i did, you know whether or not you've done wrong and being honest is the best way to go, i felt that as i offered the information she could clearly see that i had nothing to hide. I attended the interview alone. I was in there 15 minutes, if that! after sitting with my stomach in my throat while i was cautioned etc was the worst of it. After that it bacame apparent that they didn't even know about the mail and i didn't offer the information as i didn't feel it was relevant given that i had explained the situation. And to be honest, once i told her we'd finished in november i think she'd made her decision. To be fair, she never tried to trip me up, she asked questions and i answered. It was nowhere near as bad as i imagined it would be! So again, thank you to all for your fantastic support. Jadeybags, i know you're going to be fine on Thurs! and to anyone else going through it, panic not! they are not the evil people that you may have been led to believe. they have a job to do and from my experience she did her's fairly! xxxxxx

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Welshmam, I'm so happy for you! :whoo:. Thank you for coming back to tell us, I guess you've calmed down a bit now :). I hope you'll stay around because you might be able to help someone going through the same hell that you did. This is the first day of the rest of your life.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hey guys!! good news!!! Cased closed! Here's a summary.....

 

I went in to be greeted by rather moody looking lady. She cautioned me, made me sign to say i accept the caution, explained the caution etc.

Then she asked me about the benefits i recieve and if there's any change in circumatance i had failed to declare. To which i replied no.

Then she asked what changes i thought i should notify them of... i felt 12 years old lol!

Then she asked a whole lot of questions about my son's sperm donor (the one i believe reported me, he's just been nailed by the CSA)

Did i recieve maintenance, did he have contact, do i know where he live, where he works? ER... NO!

She didn't ask a single question about my daughters sperm donor..... Thanks for the confirmation!!

Anyhow, she said to me "well obviously you're in a relationship as that's why you've been called in!" Me: "er... no!"

Her face dropped. So i said to her that i had been in a relationship and that it had ended last year, she asked me when, i said november. Again, her face hit the floor. I realised at this point that she had obviously had the report after we had finished. so i was honest. She asked how long we had been together, how serious the relationship had been, whether we had lived together, who he was, where he worked and where he lives (i didn't know and explained about the 999 call). Then she asked about the rats lol! (i got rats for the kids on the condition he would clean them cos i couldn't stand them and when we finished i asked him to take them cos they freaked me out, he did!) That actually made me giggle because it only confirmed it was the ex's parents that had called them! she was quite amused by this also! I told her honestly that the relationship had ended badly and that i'd had the police involved, gave her the date, she didn't want the crime reference number. Then she said " ah well, i may as well stp the tape as its obvious you haven't done anything wrong" she stopped the tape, told me that normally it would be sent to a decision maker but she wasn't going to bother as she was satisfied that nothing was amiss and was closing the case. We then had a conversation about loopy ex's and she told me that her daughter had recently got out of a relationship with a nutter. I told her about the pregnancy and she told me that the best thing i could do was to cut him off as he clearly had issues and he wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court anyway given everything that had happened!!!! I then went on to say that i knew that it was my son's grandparents that had reported it, that the csa had warned me and that given that they had given no consideration to how any of this affected him i was going to cut contact with them. Her reply? "I don't blame you!" It actually felt as though she wanted me to know that it was them that had reported me, not that i doubted it for a minute anyway.

The relief right now is enormous. After initially being quite serious she was actually a really lovely down to earth lady. I actually think she knew from the off that i had done nothing wrong and the fact that i offered the information about the relationship shocked her, honesty is the best policy. I am quite suprised that they interviewed me under caution given that the only thing they had was a phonecall, it seemed a bit severe. I worried myself sick for two wks and actually came out of that room laughing! she also told me that for anything like this the worst thing they will do it sanction benefits, it only ever goes to court if the fraud is severe and then it is extremely rare to get a prison sentence! This came about after i had said to her that The Grandparents clearly hadn't thought of the consequences on my children if i had been commiting fraud and was sent to prison. She told me it would never come to that, they don't work that way.

I want to thank all you guys on here for your fantastic support this last few weeks, you have kept me calm and sane and a shoulder to cry on! thank you!!

To anyone facing a similar situation i would say don't over think it as i did, you know whether or not you've done wrong and being honest is the best way to go, i felt that as i offered the information she could clearly see that i had nothing to hide. I attended the interview alone. I was in there 15 minutes, if that! after sitting with my stomach in my throat while i was cautioned etc was the worst of it. After that it bacame apparent that they didn't even know about the mail and i didn't offer the information as i didn't feel it was relevant given that i had explained the situation. And to be honest, once i told her we'd finished in november i think she'd made her decision. To be fair, she never tried to trip me up, she asked questions and i answered. It was nowhere near as bad as i imagined it would be! So again, thank you to all for your fantastic support. Jadeybags, i know you're going to be fine on Thurs! and to anyone else going through it, panic not! they are not the evil people that you may have been led to believe. they have a job to do and from my experience she did her's fairly! xxxxxx

 

Oh I am sooooo pleased!!! Kept checking back earlier & was worrying that you hadn't replied!

You had a gooden there then. My compliance officer did say our place has 2 that do the interviews that are nice. But I have also heard they are not going to be nice lol

I spoke to a legal aid benefits solicitor today & he's fantastic.

He said you dont even have to go to this interview. Think what it is going to achieve, for the overpayment you're talking about they wont prosecute. But he said I might want to accept a caution. But he said it's betterto sometimes not go to these interviews, because if they are going to prosecute, they will, then they summons you, then you know exactly what you're charged with & what evidence anyway.

That's when I come in he said, & we deal with it from then. If someone has gone in there, been put under pressure, said things that will go against them in court because of their nerves, then have to turn round in court & say but I didn't mean it like that. What has that achieved by going there?

He said he would rather go to court with a clean slate, if that makes sense.

But he said if you ask when you go in there exactly what it's about & they wont tell you before they put you in the spotlight, I would probably recommend you leave at that point & say you'll consult a solicitor.

If it's just the wages mix up thing (which he did say sounds messy but also with a fair bit of lacking in duty of care on their part) then fine, but if they start accusing you of more, that's when you say, sorry, would like to end this now & consult a solicitor.

I know mine wont be over as quick as yours, but I accepted the wages mix up on the grounds that I didn't pay enough attention to making sure they had worked my earnings out right. But I wont be accepting anymore, they have had their lot, & I will fight the next thing, if there is.

Because at the moment I am a bit amazed they are calling me in especially after the compliance officer explained to them how it happened & she could tell by the shock on my face when she told me how little they had my wages down for.

But the solicitor said they definitely will call you in for a 1200 pound overpayment. They wont prosecute for that usually, but it's enough for an interview.

So here we go for thursday...

So glad you came back to say how it went. I wish the other person had, that had theirs monday.

Atleast it shows you appreciate the support people have given you.

xxxx

p.s he did also say if you haven't done anything wrong intentionally, you NEVER admit guilt, through fear & thinking they'll go easier on you. He said they dont care about you, they're not going to think awww poor thing & go easy on you, they want an admission, then they will have you in court!

So remember that folks if you go to one of these things.

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ah hun! i'm sure you'll be fine. If i've learnt anything from today and other people i've spoken to my advise to you would be to go to the interview, have your wits about you, and when they ask you do you know what its about... say no! that way they HAVE to tell you what they are accusing you of. If you are not comfortable to continue then say that you will seek legal advice and speak to them at a later date and leave ! The woman i had today seemed really suprised that i had attended alone, she even looked out the door after i entered the room to see if anyone was coming behind me even though she had escorted me from the seating area! I think that when i said if i went in there with a solicitor or friend i would be walking in with GUILTY tattooed on my head i was right. Its what they expect. I honestly think that you have nothing more than the repayment to worry about. Please, please be careful of the solicitor as while he may be getting paid from legal aid, he is still getting paid and in my experience of solicitors its a means to a paypacket and they will drag it out if necessary. You are obviously an intelligent woman who can express yourself well and to the point, go in there confident in your belief and think carefully about what you say and you will be fine. Bare in mind that after everything i read i thought that they must have 'something' on me. I was so wrong, they had nothing but the phonecall that tipped them off. I realise now that it was their intention to give me enough time to come up with possible explanations, to make me worry and to indimidate me in the hope that i would admit to something. Be honest. If they question you on the overpayment, state that you have already excepted this and have offered repayment, tell them that you feel that in part this was their fault and that they need to take responsibilty for their mistake. Tell them that you feel that calling you in for an IUC is overkill considering that they led you to believe the matter was dealt with and remember, yes, they can use the tape against you as evidence, but by you pointing out that it was their mistake, admitting to no more than what you have already admitted to AND that you have already offered repayment, which was, as far as you were led to believe, a satisfactory outcome they will look pretty daft going into court with that as evidence! If at any point during the interview you feel uncomfortable or unable to continue you can ask for a break, or to end the interview until you have the correct representation. I really do wish you all the best and thank you soooo much for the support you have given me, the kindness of strangers never fails to amaze me.

Keep me updated, Em x

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