HSBC : Is this a legal agreement

[lochlisa]

this is what HSBC have sent me, conveniently excluding page 2 and 4.

 

But, is this front page actually a legal document?

 

thank you for any help.

 

[car2403]

In a word, no - this is an application form. an application form can be enforceable, but it needs to contain the prescribed terms, which I can't see on there. These would be credit limit, interest rates and details of repayment.

[Guest jsa12]

you need to look for the prescribed terms',right to cancel/interest rates'/discharging your obligations under the agreement.if thats all you have received then its not compliant,did they send any terms and conditions and are these linked to in in any way?,is this a true copy as hsbc have been known to send out copies that are not true as the originals',particularly as this looks an online application was made.

[lochlisa]

I need full details on 5 different HSBC accounts including copies of the credit agreements and PPI agreements.

 

Should I CCA 5 separate requests or just do a SAR request? Do they need to supply credit agreements on a SAR request?

 

thank you for any help.

 

Lisa

[citizenB]

To obtain copies of the agreements you will need to do 5 individual CCA requests. These are not covered by the SAR requests.

 

I suggest you also do the SAR request as well. One request will cover ALL information they hold on you and you need to request statements for all accounts as well if it is PPI you are thinking of reclaiming

List the 5 accounts so there can be no doubt what you require, but make it clear that the information you require is NOT limited to those accounts.

 

HTH

[lochlisa]

can someone help me please with wording ?

 

I have received a barely legible copy of an Application Form for an HSBC card, thats what it says Application Form on the top of the page. there should be another 3 pages of t's & c's but they have only sent one page.

 

I seem to remember that any copy must be easily legible? Is this correct? I also seem to recall that an Application Form is not an agreement?

 

From what I can see it looks like what I have been sent has been taken off microfiche as there are marker lines down the side of the page.

 

I need help with wording a reply please regarding the poor copy and the missing pages. Can anyone guide me please.

 

Also, can I ask them for a copy of an executed credit agreement as well? (if one exists?)

 

thank you, Lisa

Edited May 15, 2011 by lochlisa

[citizenB]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?291468-Fighting-back-with-CPUTR-2008....

 

Have a read of the thread above. It is quite long but it gives examples of ways to ask for a copy of the CCA and to ask for confirmation that an original document is held by the company.

 

You can most certainly request a legible copy, but that will more than likely push them to "reconstruct" one.

[lochlisa]

I have now received N244 and Allocation questionnaire.

 

HSBC are relying on a 'reconstituted copy of a contract' in their particulars of claim.

 

I have already CPR'd them and all they have supplied is another copy of the reconstituted copy.

 

Basically this is a Priority Application Form which does not have all t's & c's within the 4 corners but mentions that separate t's & c's should be read in conjunction with this page.

 

I have already acknowledged service and filed my intention to defend the whole claim.

 

Any advice on what I should do now, apart from just filling in the Allocation Questionnaire?

 

thanks, Lisa

[freakyleaky]

I will flag this for the rest of the team to look over.

It looks like things don't change much with HSBC

 

Do you have another thread running re this claim??

[42man]

You should check that the statements correspond with the interest this may help you also google Kotecha vs Phoenix

[Carningli]

Hi Lochlisa,

 

Having done all the essential things and indicated that you are filing a defense.

 

Are you making a Counter Claim? If so you need to get to work on this straight away as time will fly. You need to list every incident

was detrimental to your interests as a party to the contract. On what grounds are HSBC taking you to Court, they may find it difficult

to enforce judgement if they are unable to produce the original document. Challenge their assumptions on every derail. Be prepared to go to mediation if necessary. I expect the claim has been issued by DG Solrs be prepared to talk to them, berore getting to Court. In the main they hope they won't be challenged or the case will be undefended, in which case they will apply for judgement immediately so watch your timing you don't want to have to apply for a judgement to be set aside. Buy "Small Claims Procedure in the County Court", if your claim falls into this category, if not watch costs in defending your action. I negotiated with DG after having to apply for a judgement to be set aside after requesting permission to submit a Counter Claim (be prepared to go to the wire) I came out of the process very favourably.

[Old Cogger]

Warning!!!! Warning!!! Warning!!! They DG sols need very careful dealing with, in as much they issue wrong proceedings and make assumptions that are incorrect, check everything time & time again anythging they say or write, try to use letters not telecon as they lie on there. Be Warned.

 

Let people on here see everything they state/do. o.k.?

[lochlisa]

Restons have applied for a Court Order to grant a Summary Judgment against me (and effectively win the case).

 

They have admitted that they do not hold the original signed credit agreement (there isn't one, all they have is a Priority Application Form attached below) but have provided a reconstituted copy (Priority Application Form) and have a microfiche of the original that is not clearly legible. They claim they can relate this to case law and legislation to prove I owe the debt.

 

** they are still quoting a different account number on their paperwork which is close to the HSBC account but not exact - does this make any difference??

 

What do I do now?

 

Help please !

 

thank you,

 

Lisa

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2011 by lochlisa
additional info

[lochlisa]

Restons have applied for a Court Order to grant a Summary Judgment against me (and effectively win the case).

 

They have admitted that they do not hold the original signed credit agreement (there isn't one, all they have is a Priority Application Form attached below) but have provided a reconstituted copy (Priority Application Form) and have a microfiche of the original that is not clearly legible. They claim they can relate this to case law and legislation to prove I owe the debt.

 

** they are still quoting a different account number on their paperwork which is close to the HSBC account but not exact - does this make any difference??

 

What do I do now?

 

Help please !

 

thank you,

 

Lisa

 

 

 

[cerberusalert]

Moved to the Legal Forum.

[citizenB]

If the account numbers are different.. then I would imagine you have something to question.

 

The account number on the claim form should be the one shown on your statements!

 

What case law and legislation are they relying on?

 

BTW, do you have a thread on the run up to this point.. I think we need to know more about how you arrived at this point.

 

Restons are very quick to apply for summary judgment.. it is a test to see just how strong your defence is!! If the Judge thinks you have a triable case, then they will have sussed you out to see how well you will do at a hearing proper.

[lochlisa]

If the account numbers are different.. then I would imagine you have something to question.

 

The account number on the claim form should be the one shown on your statements!

 

What case law and legislation are they relying on?

 

BTW, do you have a thread on the run up to this point.. I think we need to know more about how you arrived at this point.

 

Restons are very quick to apply for summary judgment.. it is a test to see just how strong your defence is!! If the Judge thinks you have a triable case, then they will have sussed you out to see how well you will do at a hearing proper.

 

1. The Claim Form has a different account number to that on the statements.

2. They have not divulged the case law and say they will expose that at the hearing.

3. They have admitted that the microfiche copy of the 'agreement' is not clearly legible and that instead they will rely upon a reconstituted copy at the hearing.

4. At this point as stopped paying credit card, no CCA could be provided, only a Priority Application Form (reconstituted).

5. Restons filed case in Court, I submitted defence, they said my defence was nonsense and have applied for a SJ against me.

 

Lisa

[citizenB]

1. The Claim Form has a different account number to that on the statements.

2. They have not divulged the case law and say they will expose that at the hearing.

 

I dont think they can do that ? If they havent mentioned it in their Witness statements, they shouldnt be allowed to rely upon it in court. You will need confirmation of that from someone with more knowledge than me though.

 

3. They have admitted that the microfiche copy of the 'agreement' is not clearly legible and that instead they will rely upon a reconstituted copy at the hearing.

 

4. At this point as stopped paying credit card, no CCA could be provided, only a Priority Application Form (reconstituted).

 

5. Restons filed case in Court, I submitted defence, they said my defence was nonsense and have applied for a SJ against me.

 

Lisa

 

Any chance we can see what you have put in your defence.. ?

[lochlisa]

my defence was very simple :-

 

I do not owe the alleged amount on the account number as stated in

the Particulars of Claim.

 

I did the above because the account number in the POC is not known to me and I have no documentation from HSBC or the lawyers with this account number.

 

In addition to this I asked the Judge to grant a Draft Order at Allocation Stage as the Claimant had failed to provide documentation stated in the POC, I also asked to be allowed to submit an amended defence once the Claimant provided the documentation they were relying on.

 

After this was granted the Claimant immediately applied for a Summary Judgement detailing what I have previously said.

 

So, I have to counter the SJ application now and ask for a Strike Out - agreed??

 

I too think not divulging the case law the Claimant intends to rely on contravenes Civil Procedure Rules.

 

Lisa

[citizenB]

If you have a witness statement from the claimant then you need to go through it point by point rebutting any of their claims. I will try and find some help for you. Do you have a date for the SJ hearing, because I think you need to have any response back to the court 7 days prior to the hearing.

[lochlisa]

If you have a witness statement from the claimant then you need to go through it point by point rebutting any of their claims. I will try and find some help for you. Do you have a date for the SJ hearing, because I think you need to have any response back to the court 7 days prior to the hearing.

 

I have no witness statement from the Claimant.

 

The SJ hearing is in 7 weeks time.

 

Thanks, Lisa

[citizenB]

I have no witness statement from the Claimant.

 

The SJ hearing is in 7 weeks time.

 

Thanks, Lisa

 

 

Hmmm, that is odd. I thought they had to attach it to their application ?

 

Right.. 7 weeks, so that gives you a little bit of time. I have sent out an S.O.S. for you.

[AndyOrch]

Hi Lisa

 

Can you scan in the summons and their application N244 (less any identifiable date) along with your AQ & Directions and theirs if you have received a copy.

 

Regards

Andy

[lochlisa]

Will this work do you reckon?

 

As they are unable to produce a properly executed agreement I was wondering if citing what I have typed below will work?

 

Lisa

 

 

 

The failure of the Claimant to evidence the alleged credit card agreement means that the Claim has no prospect of success pursuant to s127(3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974:

 

The court shall not make an enforcement order under s65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form) and complying with regulations under s(60)(1) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

Further, or alternatively, the Claimant is prevented from obtaining an enforcement order pursuant to s127(4)(a) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 as follows:

 

The Court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) in the case of a cancellable agreement if

 

(a) a provision of Section 62 or 63 was not complied with, and the creditor or owner did not give a copy of the executed agreement, and of any other document referred to in it, to the debtor or hirer before the commencement of proceedings in which the order is sought, or

(b) section 64(1) was not complied with.

[lochlisa]

*bump*

 

help please !