Employment Tribunal .....LOST

[greendollar]

Hi all ,

 

Well the tribunal is finally done and dusted and not the result I'd hoped for .

Still trying to get my head around the desicions the judge come up with .

 

It seems that virtually all my evidence and witness statements were dismissed even though the witnesses swore on oath to the facts , yet my ex-employers witness statements were accepted on face value without them even being at the tribunal to back up their claims.

 

The reason given for writing me out of the works roster before my disciplinary was that I was to be sent on an lengthy training course but they decided to dimiss me .

This excuse was accepted by the judge .

 

My statement and that of my rep stating that the appeal manager implied that by admitting the offence I would keep my job were not accepted .

 

I find it bizarre that a witnesses testimony explaining that they were given verbal and written warnings can be dismissed because there was no statement from my ex-employers managers giving their side of the story .......it seems that swearing on oath isn't good enough .

 

They did agree that my dismissal was 'harsh' and that disciplinary procedure was flawed but that my ex-employer were within the rights to dismiss me for gross misconduct .

 

At least they didn't try to go for costs .

 

As I've said , not the result I'd hoped for but I'm glad I took a punt and went for it , just a shame the judge fell for their BS.

 

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments and advice .

[SarEl]

Oh that is bad news. I suppose all that can be said now is at last you can move on.

 

I find it bizarre that a witnesses testimony explaining that they were given verbal and written warnings can be dismissed because there was no statement from my ex-employers managers giving their side of the story .......it seems that swearing on oath isn't good enough .

.

 

I do think I recall warning you on this one. Comparing disciplinary cases is poor law - no two are the same, and a tribunal is generally wary of accepting comparative cases.

 

I hope you'll stick around - at least you can advise others after all you have learned.

[honeybee13]

Hi Greendollar. I'm very sorry to hear it hasn't gone your way.

 

I would echo what SarEl said and hope you stick around with us.

 

My best, HB

[papasmurf1cx]

Greendollar.... commiserations to you. Please stick around and give the wisdom of your experiences to others. Your stand will not have been in vain. Perhaps your ex employer will be more wary in the future, after all they have a big legal fee to pay and they won't want that again if they can avoid it!!

 

Have a good drink tonight and wake up in the morning thinking you were true to your beliefs. By next week you will wondering how much time you have on your hands.

[greendollar]

A big thanks for all your support and I'll certainly be keeping tuned in to the CAG employment threads , my experience has certainly opened my eyes at just how devious employers can be and what depths that they're willing to sink too . This was the first major employer/multi national company I've worked for and I'll think twice before working for such a large company again ........much better to be employed by a firm that appreciates your hardwork and doesn't just look at you as a number that can be discarded on a whim .

[SarEl]

........much better to be employed by a firm that appreciates your hardwork and doesn't just look at you as a number that can be discarded on a whim .

 

Really? You mean, like a small family firm? Or perhaps a voluntary organisation? A public sector employer? You have been reading the other threads, haven't you?

 

Try a lottery ticket

[elpulpo]

Really? You mean, like a small family firm? Or perhaps a voluntary organisation? A public sector employer? You have been reading the other threads, haven't you?

 

Try a lottery ticket

Do you think any are better than any other, SE?

[SarEl]

Do you think any are better than any other, SE?

 

I think the lottery ticket would be the safer odds!

[elpulpo]

I think the lottery ticket would be the safer odds!

I agree

[MrBlack]

Cue thread from an ex-employee of The National Lottery regarding being sacked for gross misconduct ( "I replaced all the balls with '7's by accident - surely a verbal warning would be enough?")

[papasmurf1cx]

Cue thread from an ex-employee of The National Lottery regarding being sacked for gross misconduct ( "I replaced all the balls with '7's by accident - surely a verbal warning would be enough?")

 

:lol: Humour definitely IS the best medicine

[elpulpo]

Violent retribution's the best medicine, but ya don't often get away with it.

Edited February 24, 2011 by elpulpo

[greendollar]

I must say I'm still abit baffled as to why written witness statements I provided were disregarded because the colleagues in question weren't present to be cross examined yet written witness statements from my ex-employer were allowed even though dates and times of events were clearly wrong . Even the witnesses that did attend and give evidence saying they had received verbal/written warnings had it disregarded because we didn't obtain statements from the manager that disciplined them stating that they had received lesser punishments ( and for the tribunal to expect managers who work for the firm I'm making a claim against to write statements or attend the tribunal in my defence is laughable).

Surely the same rule applies to both respondants and claimants regarding witness statements ?

I thought it would be hard but the tribunal made it pretty much impossible for me to win .

Edited February 25, 2011 by greendollar

[themoonscrescent]

That is strange, in my wifes case, there were 3 witness statements from the other side that were allowed despite the fact that the people in question did not attend (one of those being from the person that made the accusation against my wife in the 1st place, they admitted that they didn't even bother to try to contact her?).

[elpulpo]

When you say witness statements from the ex-employer, Greendollar, do you mean they were statements that had been made before your disciplinary hearing and used as evidence towards your dismissal?

[honeybee13]

Hi guys. I believe the only reason for appealing an ET is a point of law, unless I'm thinking about a DWP tribunal. Maybe someone will comment on whether these statements would count as that.

 

My best, HB

[SarEl]

Elpulpo got it in one. Witness statements which the employer relied on in a disciplinary hearing are not witness statements at a tribunal - they are evidence of the reasons why the employer made the decision they did. Witness statements that you produce are not evidence, they are witness statements and therefore the witness must attend. You are getting this idea because you have misundertsood what tribunals do - they do not re-hear the case and come to their own decision. They hear the process which the employer took to come to a decision, and then detrmine whether that decision was justified based on that process. It is a confusion that many people have about tribunals.

 

And HB is correct. Appeals can only be lodged on points of law.

[elpulpo]

Hey, I'm doing well today, SarEl! Do I get a gold star?

[greendollar]

Thanks for clearing that one up , if I had known that beforehand I would have tried to ensure that all the relevant witnesses were present at the Tribunal and not wasted my time with , what turned out be , worthless statements .........lesson learned the hard way ......if I'd have known what I know now I would have destroyed my employers case for dismissal at the appeal . 2 years too late though

 

One other question if I may , although I was threatened with substancial costs during my claim my ex-employers solicitors never bought up the subject at the Tribunal . Is this threat now over ? I'm half expecting a letter in the post from them containing their (rather large) legal bill .

Edited February 25, 2011 by greendollar

[SarEl]

No they can't do that. The tribunal would have to order it (and you would have to be there), and that isn't likely to happen. You may have misunderstood some things, but you were not being vexatious. Don't worry about it.

[SarEl]

Hey, I'm doing well today, SarEl! Do I get a gold star?

 

gdjhudhljn

[elpulpo]

gdjhudhljn

Should have seen that coming:roll:

[greendollar]

No they can't do that. The tribunal would have to order it (and you would have to be there), and that isn't likely to happen. You may have misunderstood some things, but you were not being vexatious. Don't worry about it.

 

Well thats it then , that little episode in my life is now over , unless SarEl would like to take on my appeal ......I'm sure if I forward all the paperwork over to you SE you should be able to find a point of law that I could appeal on ?????? thats if your not busy (not to be taken seriously , I've had enough of employment law to last me a lifetime)

 

I know I've said this before but a HUGE thank you to CAG and all that have taken the time to read,comment and advise on my thread/s . kind regards Greendollar

[natasha2010]

Sorry to hear you were not sucessful at ET. Dont beat yourself up about missunderstanding stuff etc, its a REALLY hard thing to get your head around, its overwhelming.

 

I am with SarEl on the issue of the lottery ticket. I just got dismissed from my "small friendly company" - and had a bad experience previously with another small company. Am now thoroughly put off working for small one-off businesses, they can be the worst for bullying. I only want a position in a larger more professional organisation from now on.

[Bignick58]

Hey Greendollar,

 

Just got back from holiday and searced for your result. (Knew your case was imminent).

 

I'm so sorry to hear the outcome.

 

I started off thinking along the same lines, trying to show what lying toerags everyone is from the employers own investigation evidence.

 

I quickly realised that the real way to attack it, is to show what a pig's ear they made of following both their own and ACAS procedures.

 

In my wife's case we're sure we can show that, among other things, evidence was manufactured / concealed / withheld.

 

We're now at disclosure. I sent a request for some stuff we can prove exists, but have never seen.

 

Lo and behold, the respondent have suddenly appointed a representative!

 

I'm an optimist and see this as a sign that they are less sure about things.

 

Anyway, all the best for the future.

(Are you back in work yet?)

 

Nick.