Rockwell Debt Collection Agency - Lloyds Black Horse Personal Finance

[Chauffeurboy]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25234[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]25233[/ATTACH]Dear All who can help!

 

I sent Rockwell Debt Collection a Request for my Original Credit Agreement for a loan i supposidly took out with Lloyds Black Horse Personal Finance. I received a letter back in Aptil 2010from Fenton Cooper saying they have received my request for a copy of my agreement and once the documents have been received they will forward them onto me in the meantime the account will be placed on hold and no further action will be taken. I recently checked my Equifax credit report and ask them if the Default will be removed in July this year( which will be 6 years) and that i requested a CCA in 2010 for which i have not yet received.

I then received a Letter from Rockwell Debt Collection Agency saying that "The CCA is no longer available" however i still owe Tessera Portfolio Management (I'm sure it should be Theresa Portfolio) the balance of £2922.20

 

I did pay a Debt Management Company "Gregory Pennington" to pay them from 09/2006 till 03/2010 when i buried my head in the ground away from my money problems however i woke up and smelt the coffee and having recently won £2600.00 off another loan for PPI i need to sort this last one out.

 

To be perfectly honest i don't remember the loan as it was taken out i think in 1996 when i was going through a messy divorce. Rockwell Debt Collection are saying that i still have a legal obligation to pay them the oustanding and original debt! But surely if they cannot find the CCA then there isnt a debt is there.

 

I have scanned the letter and will attach it when i find out if someone can help me.

[Bazooka Boo]

I don't think you will be able to post your scans until you hit twenty posts.

 

However, this Gregory pennington outfit, are you paying for it? If so, drop them like a hot brick, there is NOTHING they do that you either can't do yourself, OR, have done for free by the CAB or CCCS.

 

If they can't produce a CCA then there is NO legal obligation, or otherwise, to part with any of your cash. Also, the default marker on your credit file (CRF) can be questioned and removed.

[debbbbsy]

I then received a Letter from Rockwell Debt Collection Agency saying that "The CCA is no longer available" however i still owe Tessera Portfolio Management (I'm sure it should be Theresa Portfolio) the balance of £2922.20

 

 

In a sense, they are correct, you do still owe the money. But without a copy of your credit agreement, they cannot at any time threaten court action, they cannot instigate legal proceedings......they can get down on bended knees & beg you to pay, but if you say no, there is absolutely nothing they can do.

 

Keep this letter safe. Scan it and keep a copy so should anybody ever threaten court action, you can go for the throat.

 

Officially put the account in dispute & tell them to bog off.

[Tingy]

As far as the default goes, I don't think there's much you can do about it unfortunately, other than place a personal marker against it.

[Sand-Dancer0191]

Quote:-

Rockwell Debt Collection are saying that i still have a legal obligation to pay them the oustanding and original debt! But surely if they cannot find the CCA then there isnt a debt is there.

Quote:-

In a sense, they are correct, you do still owe the money. But without a copy of your credit agreement, they cannot at any time threaten court action, they cannot instigate legal proceedings......they can get down on bended knees & beg you to pay, but if you say no, there is absolutely nothing they can do.

 

Both quotes are correct as stated in McGuffick v The Royal Bank Of Scotland(2009)EWHC2386....BUT I believe this was based on the CCA2006.Which is not retrospective...

Your debt would I believe fall under the CCA1974....BIG..BIG difference so the quote from debbbsy is the one I would opt for here.

And yes the letters will continue...Do what you want with them...I personally post back as return to sender / costs them more money that way:lol:

[Chauffeurboy]

Thanks All as always you are extremely helpful.

 

I have typed the letter out to the word so you can all advise on the exact content.

 

RE Outstanding balance of £2933.00 owed to Tessera Portfolio Management Ltd (Lloyds Blackhorse-xxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

We refer to the above account.

 

We note your request for a copy of the original Agreement quoting section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Unfortunately the Agreement is no longer available.

 

Notwithstanding this the debt remains valid and we expect you to continue to meet your obligations under the Agreement.

 

We acknowledge the fact that until we comply with our obligations to send you a copy of your credit agreement pursuant to S.77 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 ("CCA") we cannot enforce your credit agreement through the courts. That is not the dispute.

 

Whilst we are currently unable to take legal action to enforce the debt this does not affect the validity of the underlying debt. Section 77 (4) of the CCA does not make the agreement void, therefore as the debt still exists we are entitiled to carry out any actions that do not amount to enforcing the Agreement including demanding payment, charging interest, transferring the debt to a third party,registering the debt with a credit reference agency and issuing a default notice. This was upheld in the case of McGuffick V Royal Bank of Scotland PLC. We therefore reserve the right to register any default with the credit reference agency.

 

In respect of any claim that this debt is in "dispute", we agree that the Agreement is unenforceable in a court of law as explained above however the money lent to you has not been repaid to date and therefore neither of these facts are in dispute and we consider this matter resolved.

 

Please therefore provide your firm and realistic repayment proposals together with an initial payment on account within the next 14 days to avoid any further recovery action being taken. (A form as been enclosed for your ease.)

 

Yours Sincerely

 

ROCKWELL DEBT COLLECTION AGENCY

 

1. The original debt with Black Horse has had a defaulty notice on it since 2005 and is due to come off in August this year
   
2. Can they put it back on even though there is not CCA
   
3. Can they sell this debt on even though the is no CCA
   
4. Do they owe me £668.90 which i paid them through a Debt Management Company ( Buried my head in the sand)
   
5. Is this debt enforceable
   
6. This debt date back to 1996-1997 i think !
   
7. Don't every recall taking this loan out so do need to see paperwork which they cannot supply.
   
8. If there was PPI i would need to see that as well as i have already won a £2500 PPI case against Lombard
   
9. What would be my next call of action.
   

Finally everyone that has helped in the past and future A VERY VERY BIG THANKYOU YOU ARE TRULY SAINTS IN DISGUISE.

[Tingy]

Basically as long as they cannot produce a copy of the agreement you don't have to pay a penny towards it. They are allowed to ask you to pay, as technically the debt is still there, and if they find the agreement then they can legally enforce it. Until that point in time they can treat it as a genuine debt, which it is, but they can take no enforcement action to make you pay it.

[silverfox1961]

1. The original debt with Black Horse has had a defaulty notice on it since 2005 and is due to come off in August this year See below
   
2. Can they put it back on even though there is not CCA NO
   
3. Can they sell this debt on even though the is no CCA YES
   
4. Do they owe me £668.90 which i paid them through a Debt Management Company ( Buried my head in the sand) NO. The debt still exists
   
   
5. Is this debt enforceable
   
6. This debt date back to 1996-1997 i think ! See my question below
   
7. Don't every recall taking this loan out so do need to see paperwork which they cannot supply. Why were you paying if you weren't sure it was your debt or not
   
8. If there was PPI i would need to see that as well as i have already won a £2500 PPI case against Lombard Not sure on this one
   
9. What would be my next call of action. See below
   

 

You say the debt was from 96/97. Is this when you (allegedly) stopped paying or was it when the loan was taken out?

[Bazooka Boo]

Don't forget to make a formal complaint about them to the ICO for processing your data when they have no grounds to do so and are effectively in breach of the DPA.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?254802

 

http://www.ico.gov.uk/complaints.aspx

[Chauffeurboy]

Hi Silverfox 1961

 

I took the loan out then although i cannot for the life of me know what for!! I was married then. Can i be defaulted twice for the same debt even though the second person (Rockwell) do not have my agreement and cannot find one?

[FORMISTER]

When was the last time you paid any money to this account?

 

You should only have one default on your credit file for this. This should be from when you defaulted (registered within 6 months of defaulting).

A DCA should not add another default to your file, they can take over and manage the default on behalf of the creditor or for themselves if they have purchased the account. They cannot default you again if the origional default has dissapeared from your credit file after 6 years,

 

Do you know when you defaulted on this loan?

[Sand-Dancer0191]

I had a strong feeling they would quote the"" McGuffick V Royal Bank of Scotland"".The DCA's are starting to use this as a case ref..

It does NOT apply here..McGuffic was the claimant therefore different rules apply.

 

The principles of enforcement action in this area are judged by the OFT to be similar to those applying to statute barred debt. If sections 77, 78 or 79 cannot be complied with so the debt cannot be enforced in the courts, this does not mean that the debt disappears, and it is perfectly acceptable for a creditor to seek to pursue the debt. It is also acceptable, in this context, to register accurately any arrears or default with a credit reference agency. However, if they were to threaten court action, knowing that judgment will not be possible and that therefore court action will not actually be taken, this would be judged by the OFT to be misleading and oppressive.

 

Also this point needs reporting ""14 days to avoid any further recovery action being taken.""Plus what BB said

[Chauffeurboy]

Dear Forminster

 

 

the Default comes off in August of this year as it was put on in July 2005 however can the DCA extend it or add another default.

[Chauffeurboy]

Dear Sand-Dancer 0191

 

What do you mean by this ( Also this point needs reporting ""14 days to avoid any further recovery action being taken.""Plus what BB said )?

[FORMISTER]

Dear Forminster

 

 

the Default comes off in August of this year as it was put on in July 2005 however can the DCA extend it or add another default.

No

[FORMISTER]

Dear Sand-Dancer 0191

 

What do you mean by this ( Also this point needs reporting ""14 days to avoid any further recovery action being taken.""Plus what BB said )?

 

I believe Sand-Dancer was refering to the fact that they are not allowed to make threats that they cannot carryout. They haven't been able to produce an enforcable agreement , theirfore they cannot enforce any recovery action. To imply that they can is against guidelines and therefore you should report them (Re: What BB posted in post 9).

 

Appologies to Sand-dancer if I have misinterpreted what he meant.

[Tingy]

Formister - I agree with you about Sanddancer's wording. However, I think the DCA have worded it carefully by using the word "recovery" rather than "enforcement." They are not allowed to enforce the debt, but are allowed to try to recover it by,eg, writing letters asking them to pay. They play a dangerous game doing this as the OFT Guidelines on debt collection are, as you will well know, very clear about not appearing threatening or intimidating. They could easily come unstuck, but to give them credit, I think they have chosen their words carefully.

[FORMISTER]

Yep, I agree they chose their words carefully. It leaves it open to interpretation, but also defendable. It depends whether the OFT thinks this is deliberately missleading.

 

I would write to Rockwell and ask them to explain what they mean by "Recovery" and to describe the methods they would employ.

 

It's the same with the HFO threatograms, "We would recomend" "We may" "If" "Could"

[Chauffeurboy]

Thanks Tingy

 

What are the next steps? Do i just ignore the letters?

[Tingy]

The first time they write I'd write back saying they are not allowed to take enforcement action on the debt at the moment, so please do not communicate any further until such time as they have resolved the issue and complied fullly with your request.