Southwark council PCN appeal. Blue Badge.

[sailor sam]

Except for the crucial fact that the blue badge scheme does not permit blue badges in permit bays so there is absoloutely no need to state on a sign they are not allowed.

 

Funny then that my LA go to the un-necessary expence of providing addiotional plates beneath the 'Resident Permit Holders Only' ones stating 'No exemption For Disabled Badge holders'. I would of thought that because the word 'Residents' is missing from the sign in the OPs case, would be a similar scenario to a loading sign; 'Goods Vehicles Only' with the word 'Only' missing from it which is not a permitted variant.

[pfozz]

On the Southwark website, under "Where blue badge holders can park" it says:

• on yellow lines where there are no loading restrictions for up to three hours, providing the clock card is displayed and you set the time of arrival and your vehicle is not causing an obstruction in the road
  
• in pay and display or shared-use (permit holders and pay and display) bays for an unlimited time
  
• in designated blue badge bays for an unlimited time (or limited to three or four hours where signed)
  

I guess greenandmean is right in relation to the Southwark blue badge parking rules and sailor sam is right in relation to the wording of the contravention "Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place"? Can it be argued from both?

[pfozz]

...what I meant, is there does seem to be some contradiction between the two rules (website and contravention). Which takes precedent?

[green_and_mean]

Thousands upon thousands of PCNs get issued in permit bays each year using the wording 'resident bay' and have been to the adjudicator. If you think you are going to get the PCN cancelled where hundreds of others have failed feel free to try. You have a solid appeal you didn't display an invalid permit if you water it down with other side issues you will get a long letter in return waffling along about all the issues they are correct on and side stepping the issue about the wrong contravention. If you got a 19 you case is water tight you didn't display an invalid anything so you have no charge to pay. You did park without displaying but the haven't accused you of that but its their tough luck not training staff properly.

[pfozz]

PCN challenge submitted.

 

On the day in question I parked my vehicle in the 'permit holders' bay as alledged whilst taking the badge holder for a day out. In Wandsworth were I live as in most London boroughs blue badges are permitted to be used without a time limit. I therefore displayed the blue badge without clock which is only required were there is a time limit.

I returned to the vehicle to find a PCN had been issued for an invalid permit or pay and display ticket. I displayed neither a permit or pay and display ticket at any time therefore the contravention did not take place. The law clearly states that the PCN must state the grounds on which the PCN is issued, please could you either confirm details of the 'invalid permit or ticket' displayed or cancel the PCN.

 

I will let you know how it goes. Thanks for all your input.

[TheBogsDollocks]

This is not always the case. In my area BB holders can park in resident bays for as long as they wish. Whether blue badge holders can do so in Southwark all depends on whether the traffic order is drafted in a manner that make the resident bays subject to the disabled exemption regs.

 

Pfozz...see regs 7,8,9 to see if you think the bays may be subject.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/683/contents/made

[green_and_mean]

 

That is always the case the blue badge scheme does not allow them to park in permit bays unless you can point to the legislation or guidance that says they can? Locally the Council can decide to let them park in permit bays, car parks or anywhere else free but that has nothing to do with the running of the scheme itself and doesn't require any signage saying they are exempt or not exempt.

[starfarer]

 

This is not a Resident's Bay. The bay is reserved for any council issued permit like resident's, business, doctor etc. The correct code should have been Code 16: Parked in a permit space without displaying a valid permit.

[TheBogsDollocks]

 

I pointed to the legislation that says they can if certain conditions exist, whether those conditions exist in this case I can't say without access to the full traffic order. The Blue Badge Scheme booklet has no statutory authority and is not reliable. For example, it says BB holders can't park in Loading Bays but Stephen Sauvain Q.C. amongst others, reached the conclusion that they can lawfully do so since a Loading Bay falls under reg 8 linked above. This chap is supposed to be the country's leading traffic law barrister so I suppose his legal opinion carries more weight than yours or mine.

[green_and_mean]

 

I don't beleive a permit bay is created by an order exempted in that legislation?

[TheBogsDollocks]

It can be.

 

A resident permit bay is a designated parking place created under the provisions of s.45 RTRA 1984. Section 46 RTRA 1984 then enables regulation of the bay and the prescribed charges. As the bay is created by order of s.45 and s.46 RTRA 1984 then regulation 7, 8, and 9 linked above can apply if the conditions for them to do so are met.

 

If those conditions are met then a council has a statutory duty to allow BB holder's to park accordingly.

 

This applies even where a bay is not a designated parking bay but regulated by order under s.35 RTRA 1984(or s.6 for London). Hence why Loading Only bays fall under the umbrella of the disabled regs.

[pfozz]

I have not heard anything from Southward since I submitted my challenge on 18th Feb. I just checked the status of the PCN on the southwark website and it says 'case closed'. I am presuming this means they have dropped it?! If so, I think I've been lucky, but there again Southwark were careless. Many thanks to everyone for your advice. This is a great forum and I've certainly learned a lot from you.

[sailor sam]

Mmm, sounds like a happy ending but a pity we don't know why they dropped it. I wonder if they will now change the signage....

[diskmandave]

Write and ask, to be certain.

 

Doesn't the LA have a legal obligation to address the appeal/representation ?

[pfozz]

...pity we don't know why they dropped it. I wonder if they will now change the signage....

 

True. There is nothing on the web site. I will let you know if I get anything in writing. However, I did only challenge on the grounds of incorrect contravention (see above):

...I returned to the vehicle to find a PCN had been issued for an invalid permit or pay and display ticket. I displayed neither a permit or pay and display ticket at any time therefore the contravention did not take place. The law clearly states that the PCN must state the grounds on which the PCN is issued, please could you either confirm details of the 'invalid permit or ticket' displayed or cancel the PCN.

[pfozz]

Recieved a letter confirming they are dropping the case. It doesn't go into any more detail as to why though. See attached scan.

 

 

Thanks everyone for all your help with this.

[sailor sam]

I reckon they wern't so confident that the signage was adequate. It would be interesting to see if they change it or not!