Parking ticket issued when it says free after 5pm

[axil23]

I received a parking ticket at a council parking lot where it had signs to clearly state that after 5pm you could park for free. There were signs everywhere including the lifts and ground floor to basically say that after 5pm the car park is free. There were no conditions on this sign that said that you need to park in a designated parking space.

 

Apparently you could only park on floors 4 & 5 but there was no conditions on the sign to say this. All I saw was that there is free parking after 5pm in that parking lot. I have taken pictures of this sign.

 

I got a parking ticket for £70 and I sent in a appeal letter which they have rejected. What should I do next?

[Jamberson]

You'll need to give us more info.

 

What is the contravention stated on the PCN? Why (as far as you know) was the PCN issued?

 

Also, what basis did you appeal on? And what did the reply say?

[axil23]

It says the PCN was issued because the CEO had reason to believe the vehicle was parked within a Citypark permit holders parking bay without a valid permit.

 

This is the photo that I have taken from the car park. As you can see it does not say anywhere that you need to park within a certain designated space! It just says that the car park is free to park after 5pm.

 

[axil23]

You can't see the terms and conditions clearly but it doesn't say anything about parking in certain levels or bays.

 

It just says for further terms and conditions please see http://www.the councils website.

 

They have refused my appeal saying that it was correctly issued as I was parked in a wrong bay. My defense is that I genuinely did not see the bay had a city platinum sign on it and anyway when I saw the sign for free parking I assumed the whole car park was free as it does not say that its only in designated spaces.

[Jamberson]

I can see what you mean, but I assume that "free" means the pay & display charges are lifted, rather than meaning you can park in any bay.

 

It's not the worst case I've heard though, and I think you had a chance of winning an informal appeal. The word "free" is open to interpretation - it does not say "free of charge". And I assume permits are paid for anyway, so it's ambiguous.

 

I don't know whether to advise you to fight on. You'll forfeit the discount if you do, and it's quite a lot of cash at stake. Could go either way in my view.

[axil23]

I would rather fight for it as feel their display should be clearer. If you can only park for free in certain spaces then they should advise which ones rather then just say the car park is free after 5pm.

 

I know £70 is a lot of money but thats not the point in my view. I think its unfair what they are doing and would rather take it to an appeal. Can you guide me in this? What should I do next?

[Jamberson]

If you are determined to fight on, then you need to wait until you receive a document called "Notice to Owner" (I assume you haven't had one yet).

 

When it arrives, you can write again and make what's called a Formal Representation. They will consider the case again, based on what you send them.

 

Good things to include would be a description of the signage, and how and why it is unclear (there are presumably other signs in the car park, but not making the situation obvious). Also, argue that the word "free" is open to interpretation, and that it's reasonable to assume you don't need a paid-for permit if it is free. And state that although terms and conditions are available on-line, they are not available to a motorist at the point of parking. And lastly, I would reaon with them that you had nothing to gain by parking in a permit bay when there was free parking available at the site, and that this is obviously an innocent error and not an attempt to evade charges.

 

You have a chance. I'd uphold an appeal on that basis, but that's me...

[crem]

Personally I agree that the sign appears to be perfectly clear. The car park, in it's entirity, is free. I see no other way of reading that sign.

[crem]

Also, argue that the word "free" is open to interpretation, and that it's reasonable to assume you don't need a paid-for permit if it is free.

 

I agree with jameson's other points, but I wouldn't argue that the word "free" is open to any type of interpretation. The sign clearly states "the car park is free". Not sections of it. Not certain levels. Not specific bays. "The car park" is an inclusive statement IMO and not open to interpretation in any fashion.

 

To refer you to an on-line set of terms and conditions is also nonsense, unless they expect you not to park yet, drive home, check their website, then drive back once you understand the restrictions, if any, that apply.

[green_and_mean]

The 'free parking' seems to be a red herring as the PCN is not for as initially implied not paying it is for parking in a permit bay which I would assume is not a pay and display bay. This is essentially the same as assuming a disabled bay or motorcycle bay in a car park could be used just because there was no charge which is not automatically the case.

[axil23]

I see your point but we are all aware that you can't park in a Disabled or motorcycle spot as that is taught at the time of getting your licence. In my case there were no signs up to say that its a private car park nor were there any signs to say that you can't use that level. If all the parkings slots on that level are not covered under the free scheme that it should be advised to the consumer.

 

To be honest with you its not like I was trying to get off by not paying a parking charge, it was evening and there were empty parking spaces everywhere so it was a genuine mistake.

 

I went up 3 floors and they were all the same, every parking had a city platinum badge on it so I assumed that it was free after 5 as all the office people must leave by then. How was I to know that level 5 & 6 have the bays without the City Platinum sign.

[green_and_mean]

I see your point but we are all aware that you can't park in a Disabled or motorcycle spot as that is taught at the time of getting your licence. In my case there were no signs up to say that its a private car park nor were there any signs to say that you can't use that level. If all the parkings slots on that level are not covered under the free scheme that it should be advised to the consumer.

 

To be honest with you its not like I was trying to get off by not paying a parking charge, it was evening and there were empty parking spaces everywhere so it was a genuine mistake.

 

I went up 3 floors and they were all the same, every parking had a city platinum badge on it so I assumed that it was free after 5 as all the office people must leave by then. How was I to know that level 5 & 6 have the bays without the City Platinum sign.

 

Obviously without seeing the signage in the car park its very hard for anyone on here to judge how the permit scheme works or what signage there is. As far as I can work out anyone can buy a permit its a type of season ticket for regular parkers so I guess it would not just be office hours.

[axil23]

There were no signs up describing the City Platinum scheme.I went up 3 floors and they all had the same signs up that there was free parking.

 

I feel the signs should be clearer for visitors who come to the city and are not aware of the local parking schemes.

 

Is it worth taking this forward? From what I read online if it goes to the wire then 70% of the time its ruled in the favor of the driver if there were any doubts. I feel there were some doubts in my situation.

[green_and_mean]

What did the actual car park signs say ie the ones with the tariff etc on, rather than the advert for free parking?

[axil23]

There weren't any. There was only one Machine where you could pay for a ticket which was covered with a protective cover as if it were closed.

[green_and_mean]

If thats the case then you would seem to have valid grounds to take it further.

[axil23]

If thats the case then you would seem to have valid grounds to take it further.

 

Thats what I had hoped for. You know if I had got the parking ticket for parking in a disabled spot or double lines then fair enough but I really feel that the council needs to be clearer in regards to this.

[axil23]

What should I do next? They have put a appeals process in their letter. Should I appeal through them or is there a central department who looks after this as the reply I got from the council was just a standard reply which they seem to send out to all appeals.

[green_and_mean]

If you have only appealed to the PCN you should wait for a 'notice to owner' to be sent to you (as long as you are the keeper?) and that will explain how to appeal formally.

[axil23]

If you have only appealed to the PCN you should wait for a 'notice to owner' to be sent to you (as long as you are the keeper?) and that will explain how to appeal formally.

 

Problem is that I work away so I am away for 2 months and then back for 2. How long does this take to come and what happens if I don't reply till I get back?

 

Thats Green and everyone else on here. You have been very helpfull.

[green_and_mean]

Usually it arrives 5-8 weeks after the PCN, if they have given you longer to pay in the letter it may stretch the time a bit longer. You have 28 days to reply to it from when it comes, if you miss that you are snookered.

[axil23]

Usually it arrives 5-8 weeks after the PCN, if they have given you longer to pay in the letter it may stretch the time a bit longer.

 

Tricky one. What would you suggest? Fight it or pay it?

[Tony P]

I would fight it - but I am driven by principles more than the time and money involved.

And I enjoy a good fight!

So far that attitude has seen me win 19 out of 19 PCN appeals against my LA (including being awarded costs on occasion).

As a result the LA has errected clear, unambiguous and compliant signs in my road or altered others to their correct positions.

LAs give no leeway to motorists in their quest for money so I expect them to be equally absolutely correct and unambiguous in every detail of their own behaviour.

I have found Adjudicators to be more than fair in their interpretion of circumstances. Although bound by Law/Regulations they try to find a reason for allowing Appeals.

 

What I would do is not intended to be advice for others to follow.

[axil23]

I would fight it - but I am driven by principles more than the time and money involved.

And I enjoy a good fight!

So far that attitude has seen me win 19 out of 19 PCN appeals against my LA (including being awarded costs on occasion).

As a result the LA has errected clear, unambiguous and compliant signs in my road or altered others to their correct positions.

LAs give no leeway to motorists in their quest for money so I expect them to be equally absolutely correct and unambiguous in every detail of their own behaviour.

I have found Adjudicators to be more than fair in their interpretion of circumstances. Although bound by Law/Regulations they try to find a reason for allowing Appeals.

 

Thank you. I think I will fight for it too. Its not about the money like you say, more the principle. I have not had a parking ticket for 8 years now so this one really got to me.

[axil23]

If you have only appealed to the PCN you should wait for a 'notice to owner' to be sent to you (as long as you are the keeper?) and that will explain how to appeal formally.

 

Ok I have now received this but no where does it state how I can appeal this to anyone other then the city council. The second sheet has a "write your representations here" section and the reply to address is the same as what I had sent my original appeal which is the city council.

 

Shall I reply to the city council again? Or do I need to ask for the appeal to take place?