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    • I agree with all that.   Can I just add that I've gone through the defence again and tried to make a bit more sense of it - and perhaps try to address or skip over some of the questions asked by FTMDave.   Can I make clear I am not criticising what FTMDave has already done - I think that was a great job.  It's just that I have found the OP's explanations still very unclear and difficult to understand so I've tried to make more sense of it.  If what I've done is just making the whole thing more complicated and confusing then by all means ignore it.   Bits I suggest deleting altogether are struck through.  eg this   Bits in red are my suggestions/improvements.  (Or maybe they make things worse!)   Bits in blue and bold are my questions.   Whether this is really an improvement or not I don't know.  Feel free to ignore...   ===============================================================================   1.      In this Defence:   a.       References to the paragraph numbers are in reference to the paragraphs in the Particulars of Claim issued on 25/02/2021.   b.      A matter that is not admitted is a matter which the defendant is unable to admit or deny and requires the claimant to prove.   c.       The defendant adopts where appropriate the abbreviations and terms in the Particulars of Claim for convenience only and without making any admissions thereby.   2.      The defendant admits paragraph 3.1 of the claimants claim.   3.      The defendant denies paragraph 3.2 of the claimant's claim. The true agreement between the parties involved the defendant and claimant agreeing that the claimant would undertake building work (Project 1) at the defendant’s property in relation to 3 specific areas. These were; and named Project 1   a. To underpin the bay window at the property, b. To repair a previously-removed chimney breast and, c. To install a new beam to the patio door.   4.      During the process of the contract agreement above   Subsequently the claimant was also engaged on further work to do the attached on 07/09/2020 for a total amount of £2,580.00 called (Project 2).   5.      In relation to the installation of a new beam and the above this work was agreed between the parties  It was agreed between the claimant and the defendant that Project 1 was to be carried out under the instructions of a structural engineer engaged by the defendant. It was agreed between the parties that the claimant's work would be as a result of instructions received following the structural engineer's assessment of the property.   6.      Between June and July 2020 the defendant provided the claimant with a full copy of the structural engineer's report which detailed instructions to the claimant for the works to be carried out.   7.      It was agreed between the parties that the works would commence on 13/08/2020.   8.      It was agreed between the parties that the total sum for the completion of all the claimant's work regarding Project 1 would be £4300 called project 1.   9.      It was agreed between the parties that the claimant’s fees for the work would be paid through three instalment payments. The first payment would be made at the start of the claimant's work. The second payment would be paid at the halfway point of the claimant's work. The final payment would be made on completion of the total works. As such three payments were to be made each of £1433.33.   10.   The builder arrived at arrived at work at 2pm on 13/08/2020 when a contract agreement was drawn up. A cheque for the first payment was issued on the day and he worked for two hours.   11.   On 24/08/2020 the builder approached me to book an appointment with the building inspector to inspect his work as the work was approaching midway and he would need the mid-way agreement money, I obliged and a second cheque was issued. He had carried out about 25 hours of work time in the property, attached is my diary of his work. The appointment was confirmed with the building inspector and builder the informed.   12.  The building inspector showed up and but the builder, having promised to be there, was absent.  The inspector walked around inspecting inspected the builder’s work and making comments in anger was obviously displeased by the standard of work.  I called the builder and pass the phone to the building inspector.  All I heard from the inspector was “Do you know what you are doing", repeatedly, “why are you not here you knew I was coming?” followed by describing the mode of doing the work to him. After the conversation with the builder he then asked me for a piece of paper and he started to explain the process which might be useful to the builder when he came.  The inspector spoke to the builder by telephone, asking him why he was absent and questioning him about the work he had done.  The inspector then gave him some instructions over the telephone also and left a list of instructions with the defendant to be passed on to the builder.  The building inspector then said he would be getting in touch with the structural engineer with his findings and the defendant should hear from the engineer soon.   13.   The builder came late that afternoon and I handed him the paperwork given by the building inspector and the builder assured me he would sort it out, that he now had an idea how to go about it, to which I said the inspector would communicate with the structural engineer who would be contacting us so he should wait and he agreed.   14.  The structural engineer visited and recommended piling to complete the underpinning.  The builder then said that he did not have the appropriate tools for piling.  It was suggested to him that tools could be hired, but he did not respond. “But you can hire them most people do.” There was no answer. The structural engineer then introduced another tradesman who was able to do it for £3,000.00 and I paid the that tradesman to do the piling.   15.    The defendant explained to the claimant that that £3000 would have to be deducted from the agreed price for Project 1 as that work had originally been agreed in that project.  I then turned to my builder after payment that you are now £3,000.00 in deficit but we will sort this out after the rest of the work is complete.  [Is all of that true?  I don’t know.  Is there evidence it was included in Project 1?]   16.  On 02/09/2020 he the claimant asked for more work to cover his losses having paid lost the £3,000.00 for underpinning to another tradesman.  I agreed and I asked him to price the job. His quotes were outrageous.  Little did he know that I had had quotes from other people and the internet.  e.g. he quoted me £1800.00 to plaster three rooms as against another plasterer who quoted £850.00. When I showed him the plasterer's quote, he was not shocked, I told him that, because he was on site I would pay him £900.00 final and he accepted. See attached builder quote for Project 2.  [I think that is all waffle and I don’t understand it]   16.  The claimant asked if the defendant needed any more work to be done and, despite the problems encountered on Project1, the defendant agreed on 7 September 2020 to have more work done (Project 2) at an agreed price of £2580.   17.   For this reasons the builder was able to obtain a second contract from me for the amount of £2,580.00 signed on 07/09/2020 which I called Project 2, being, I believe the only way I could compromise the £3,000.00 paid to the tradesman. Again the contract agreement was identical to the initial contract for £4,300.00 (Project 1).   [I don’t understand this paragraph.  Delete it?]   18 17.  Both the initial project 1 and project 2 started to go badly and I made several complaints to him, e.g. bad pointing.  His response was all it needed was a good wash down and this bad pointing remains so to date not washed.  As work commenced on Project 2 and continued on the remaining work for Project 1, the defendant had occasion to make several complaints to the claimant regarding the standard of work   19.  18.  Around 15/09/2020 barely a week the builder had got the project 2 job, he was trying to ask for money for project 2.  Barely a week after starting on Project 2, the claimant demanded payment.  After a period of negotiation I agreed to pay him £2000.00 on 18/09/2020.    20.  On 18/09/2020 I handed a cheque for £2,000.00 to the builder.  He insisted on payment in cash even though my previous two payments had been by cheque.  I was only able to withdraw £1500.00 which I paid him.  The atmosphere was extremely hostile and under a steam of pressure I mistakenly wrote that the contract was agreed as £2,800.00 instead of £2,580.00.  However, balance at completion was correctly indicated at £1080.00.   [Way too complicated to follow.  Delete?]    19.  I paid the claimant £1500 in cash.  We agreed that this left a balance outstanding on Project 2 of £1080.   21.  We both signed the contract.  The builder left.  Later we saw the builder and his colleague on my CCTV camera walking away with my steel beam that had come off lintel. When I rang him and told that I had seen him on CCTV he admitted what he had done. I have now included the cost of the pair of the steel beam in my schedule of loss.  He charged me for work during which he stole my material to do the work without refunding the material used. This was the beginning of my dissatisfaction with the builder.   20.  It came to the defendant’s attention that the claimant had removed material (including a steel beam) from the defendant’s property that the defendant is clear either belonged to the defendant or had been paid for by the defendant in connection with Project 1.  When challenged the claimant admitted he had done this.  The defendant has included the value of this material in his counterclaim detailed below.   22.  21.  On 21/09/2020 I highlighted and sent a snagging list to the builder.  On 26/10/2020, he sent somebody to my house to clean up plaster damage to the wall and to the living room laminated flooring almost four weeks since he had last worked on the house.  The person he sent made a mess of the job.  I then updated the snagging list and gave a copy to his colleague who was doing the cleaning to give to him and emailed him a copy and sent copies by post to his address.  Over a month later he sent an employee to attend to this work.  It was not carried out satisfactorily and resulted in an updated snagging list being sent to the claimant   23.  22.  The next contact with the builder was on 12/01/2020 when I saw a note on the door demanding  he demanded 2,800.00. to which I immediately responded in my letter dated 17/01/2021 for asking him to explain how I owed the that amount as all that had been agreed as outstanding on Project 2 was £1080. so that I can deal with his claim. As I had no response from him on 05/02/2021 I sent him a recorded delivery pre-action notice.   24.  23.  The claimant builder then acknowledged my pre-action notice by sending me notice to pay pay £2,866 by 26/02/2021 otherwise he would take me to court. I therefore waited for his court claim to defend and counterclaim.   25.  The builder's court notice arrived and this was the beginning of assessing the cost of the damage and uncompleted work by the builder, by inviting tradesmen to come to the property to assess and give me quotes. More information was also sorted from the internet. Where I am not able to get accurate information or tradesmen to give me a quote I have left it as blank or TBA (to be assessed) on my schedule of loss, attached to this statement.  [Is this relevant here  Delete]   24.  For the above reasons the defendant denies the claimant’s claim and seeks to make the counterclaim detailed below.   [Does that seem right?  I don’t know?]
    • Go ring the court. Have they paid rhe fee yesterday?? What date is the hearing?    
    • Should there be a word in front of possible, Simeon? I'm not sure what you're asking.    HB
    • Search using our enhanced google search box Prescribed terms   Pers id simply now totally ignore Philips. They are nothing but scammers. Not one thread involving them here has ever gone anywhere. Dx
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Housing Benefit Issues


jadeybags
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Hi just joined, looks a great site. Sorry for this being long....

I came off IS 2 years ago, to work 16 hours a week & get tax credits & housing benefit.

Anyway, had the compliance officer over today from the council, very nice lady. She agreed she should be called a review officer really, compliance sounds scarey I said lol

Anyway, she had me down for 275.00 per month wages, this was from my first wage slip which wasn't a full month. They have a copy of contract saying hours & pay though. Which at the time was actually 402.00 per month.

Anyway, she said I have been getting benefit based on 275 a month for the last 2 years! I got full housing benefit in a housing assosiation house, 2 children.

She did say I should have been asked to provide another payslip at the time, as it looks like they have just used the first payslip to calculate it. Doh! Although I was sure I had provided a second payslip anyway, just cant prove it at the moment, but I am still looking through my paperwork.

Anyway, later today I found a letter from housing benefit dated 2 weeks after I started the job, saying what I am going to be getting & what details of mine were used to work it out.

On this letter it does say my earned income is 100.80 per week! That'll be my wages right?

So now I am really confused.

Admittedly I earn about 5 pounds a week more now, so I have to shoulder the overpayment there. That was my ignorance at not noticing a pay rise, our company is rubbish with communication.

Anyway, where do I stand if they have made the mistake but not me?

p.s I also have a pension at work 15 a month, which I started over a year ago, apparently they take into account half of, & I never let them know that, so that could work in my favour too.

Edited by dx100uk
anyway........
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With housing benefit, you have to repay any overpayment that was as a result of official error where you could reasonably be expected to know that you were being overpaid. As they had your income wrong on the award letters, it would be difficult to argue that you could not have reasonably known that you were being overpaid.

 

With Income Support official error overpayments, the Supreme Court has ruled that these cannot be recovered unless the claimant has misrepresented or failed to declare a material fact. As you provided a copy of your contract with pay and hours, you can argue that you did not misrepresent your claim or fail to disclose a material fact.

My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

 

 

Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against

forum rules to advise via private message, therefore pm's requesting private advice will not receive a response.

(exceptions for prior authorisation)

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the reply. Um, but on the award letter the amount was right that they had for my wages? If 'earned income' does mean my job?

It's only today that she told me they have written down that they only calculated it on 275 per month?

So if it was right on the award letter at the time, how would I have known I was getting too much benefit?

I did remember thinking it was weird I didn't have to pay ANY towards my rent at the time, but a guy on the phone from there said it's because they dont take into account maintenance payments we receive now. So I was entitled to full benefit.

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Oh, I see - sorry, I misunderstood. In that case, you may well have a good argument that you could not be reasonably expected to know that you were being overpaid.

 

Wait and see what comes of it. If they write to you telling you that they will recover the overpayment, appeal the decision quoting regulation 100 of the housing benefit regulations 2006. State that you did not fail to declare a fact or misrepresent your claim and could not have reasonably been expected to realise that you were being overpaid on the grounds that all of your income on the award notice was correct, and you therefore disagree that it is a recoverable overpayment. If it is the first time you have claimed housing benefit, add a line about having never claimed benefit before, it's unreasonable for them to expect you to be aware of any of the calculations used.

My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

 

 

Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against

forum rules to advise via private message, therefore pm's requesting private advice will not receive a response.

(exceptions for prior authorisation)

 

 

 

 

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Okie dokie, thanks for that link I will keep it handy.

I have just found a couple of proofs of me supplying 2 monthly payslips too! So the next one would have been the full amount.

It's that piece of paper they give you when you go down there & produce documents in person? It has the received box ticked & signed by the woman behind the counter for payslips & the 2 monthly bit is underlined. So now I have all the proof I needed that I did what I was asked. I knew I had shown them 2 payslips & not just the first one! You know when you get a bee in your bonnet because no matter how long ago something is, you know what you would have done in the situation. I would never have been stupid enough to not produce the 2nd payslip. And they would have stopped my benefit if I hadn't anyway I expect.

I had been on housing benefit before, but that was when I was on income support, but tbh I still wouldn't have a clue how they work it all out. I think people tend to trust what they tell us!

My sister worked in the overpayment of Income support years ago & she said even if it is their error, they'll still try & claim it off you, people need to appeal, & she said 80% of those appeals were ruled non repayable. It's because they hope people wont appeal & will just pay it! She admitted it was all wrong really the way they used to do it. Probably they still do!

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My sister worked in the overpayment of Income support years ago & she said even if it is their error, they'll still try & claim it off you, people need to appeal, & she said 80% of those appeals were ruled non repayable. It's because they hope people wont appeal & will just pay it! She admitted it was all wrong really the way they used to do it. Probably they still do!

 

Yes they used to do that but they cannot anymore. The supreme court ruled in 2010 that recovery of overpayments of certain benefits that were as a result of official error, is unlawful - and it has been since the introduction of the Social Security Administration Act, but was misinterpretated by benefit sections.

 

They are no longer allowed to try and claim it off you since the Supreme Court (formerly the House of Lords and the highest court in the UK) ruling. The ruling makes no allowance anymore for misinterpretations.

My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

 

 

Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against

forum rules to advise via private message, therefore pm's requesting private advice will not receive a response.

(exceptions for prior authorisation)

 

 

 

 

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I guess that only applies to income support though? Not housing benefit?

Now I am just hoping the info she had on paper today was wrong & the overpayment isn't going to be a massive amount, she said it's annoying that they dont have laptops because she had very little info in front of her, it was on computer back at her office. but it would be good if it's under 500 as she said if it's over 500 they automatically call you in for an interview that is taped. But she said they are a lovely couple of people that do the interviews so dont worry if that happens, it is basically for you to give your side across that you wasn't aware etc. If it's less than 500 they just ask you to repay over a length of time.

I know for about the last year I have earnt about a fiver more a week than they knew about, but as she said that doesn't mean you have recieved 5 pounds a week more than you should have in housing benefits, it doesn't work like that.

I just hate this! It scares you when you hear about people being accused of fraud if they have overpaid you.

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It applies to a host of benefits, but not to housing benefit so in your case yes it would just apply to the income support. But for the housing benefit you can apply the argument we discussed earlier.

My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

 

 

Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against

forum rules to advise via private message, therefore pm's requesting private advice will not receive a response.

(exceptions for prior authorisation)

 

 

 

 

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Scrap that last bit, was notified of an overpayment a few months back, that they said wasn't going to be recovered back from me, was quite a bit of money, I did ask at the time but they didn't give me details, just said it wasn't down to me so I put it out my head. So from what I can roughly work out now is they might have overpaid me about 500 pounds going by my pay rise I didn't notice last october. And I even worked it out that I had got the payrise in 2009 (which I wouldn't have) just to be on the safe side. Going by the 35% extra earnings they let you keep. Them assuming I was only getting 275 a month wages is down to them, the compliance officer even said friday that they should have asked to see a full months wage slip a month after that first part month one they had seen, & with me assuming they would use my work contract as proof of earnings, that's where it's gone scewiff.

My sister was saying that is atleast a 50/50 blame. They could say you should have noticed on the award letters, but that's assuming I got them, & they should still have asked for a full months payslip & it's fair for me to assume my work contract gave them enough info of what I would be getting. But i'll have to wait n see I know.

I know being a sunday you are prob all thinking you had better things to do than read all this, but I wanted to explain why I deleted the post as it was waffle from me panicking & this post looked to not be an issue now.

x

Edited by jadeybags
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Hi

Yes. My friend has to find £50 a month as he LHA only covers up to what the local authority says she should be paying for the property

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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Hi

Yeh but that'll be because she's privately renting. What I mean is if you're in a housing assosiation property, which doesn't feature under the fair rent rules because they are always lower rents than normal anyway.

It's just that I know they wont pay anyone housing benfit unless they qualify for more than 50p. See what I mean? Presumably because it's not worth the administration processing it.

I wondered if it works the other way too.

x

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If your rent is 95 pounds a week & you have been awarded 94.50, do they expect you to pay the 50p a week?

 

YES,you have to make up the difference up to amount set out on your tenancy agreement or Rent book

Hi

Yeh but that'll be because she's privately renting. What I mean is if you're in a housing assosiation property, which doesn't feature under the fair rent rules because they are always lower rents than normal anyway.

It's just that I know they wont pay anyone housing benfit unless they qualify for more than 50p. See what I mean? Presumably because it's not worth the administration processing it.

I wondered if it works the other way too.

x

 

The only Fair rents around nower days,are people who's tenancy started before 15/01/1989 and there Rent is registered under 1977 Rent act as amend.

Edited by 45002
as

Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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I'm really not explaining it very well LOLOL. Ok um, right, say the fair rent for a house is judged as 120 a week. But the rent is actually only 100 a week, so the council will definitely pay the full rent on that property, but when they work out your claim it turns out your awarded benefit would be 99.50 pence a week, will they actually expect you to pay that 50 pence? Or is it not worth their admin? As I have heard of people that would only be entitled to 50p a week housing benefit & they wont give them any housing benefit if it's 50p & under. Atleast our council wont anyway.

Does that make more sense? Sorry, I am rubbish at explaining things lol

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I think you may getting mixed up here with fair rents !

 

What type of Tenancy is it,when did you or your friend move in ?

 

This is the way im reading your post is

 

If the rent is a £100.00 a week and Housing benefits award only £99.50,you would have to pay that 50p a week to your landlord,you could pay the 50p to the LL

 

Every 4 weeks 50p x 4= £2.00 or every 3 months 50p x 13 = £6.50 or even every 6 months 50p x 26= £13.00

 

45002

Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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The local authority has in each area defined the 40th percentile of the rents. This sets up the maximum that housing benefit can pay in the long term. (they do provide some protection for the first 3 months). Effectively this forces people on long term benefits/state pensions to live in the poor, rough areas of town, regardless of the life they lived beforehand. This is about to get worse with the new rules changing this to the 30th percentile of rents.

 

I've recently claimed housing benefit, was told my rent was protected for the first 13 weeks, and it actually took some creative questioning to be able to identify that after 3 months, I was going to be facing a £150 shortfall a month, and that's assuming they accept the medical grounds for needing a 3 bedroomed house, otherwise it would have come as a nasty shock.

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ptol, it is a complete minefield out there where benefits are concerned. It's good that you are on the ball & know what's coming because if you're not, you do get nasty suprises & it makes you ill (or more ill) I can tell you.

xxx

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Is it normal for housing benefit compliance officers to do benefit reviews at your home?

And when they do your benefit review, do they know exatly what you are claiming for & benefits you get before they visit & ask for proof of everything?

If you're marked down for a state benefit surely they will check that at the review? or atleast check with dwp before or after the review?

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Thanks for the reply. Before they come to do the review, do they have all your details already, & just want to clarify they are right? I mean, do they check any state benefits you are getting?

I had a visit from one last week & it turned out they had my wages down wrong for the last 2 years! They had my work contract but worked out benefits going by my first payslip which wasn't a full month.

I didn't realise as I was getting full benefit so never read their yearly letters.

Anyway long story short I had been overpaid 1200 over the 2 years. Got to pay that back weekly.

She told me there is no law that says they ever have to do a review, my council does out the kindness off their heart it seems! lol but have fallen behind with them.

Trouble now is she has told me over the phone what benefit I will now be getting, haven't had a letter yet but I have been on the benefits calculator that I saw a link for on here & it's still not working out! The calculator is saying I should be paying about 12 pounds more a week!

I'm probably stressing over nothing but until I get the award letter I dont know what's happening with the difference the calculator is telling me I should be paying towards rent & the amount she is telling me?

Edited by jadeybags
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Not sure if it's the same for every council, but I know ours does one every year. Again, not sure if this just applies to my area, but I know the DWP do tell the council if you stop claiming benefits, even if you do it yourself. I'm currently paying back an overpayment in HB at £9 a week, although I'm disputing it. Most of the information they have is from the information you gave, and they just make sure it's accurate and that nothing has changed since you made the claim. The DWP and the council are supposed to "communicate" with each other, but I know that's not always the case.

Be good to yourself, when nobody else will

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