Capital One and Fredrickson International

[digger279]

Hi,

I have a number of credit card debts

following advice from the CAB in June 2010

I wrote to all creditors with an income and expenditure account and offered a monthly token payment of £1 to each of them.

 

 

The initial response wasn't favourable but I rely on Pension Credit to see me through

the majority of them accepted my situation and agreed to freeze interest.

 

 

Only Barclaycard and Capital One dug in and just piled on the interest and set their collection agencies on to me.

 

Barclaycard have only recently relented and called off Mercers and following default notice frozen the interest.

 

Capital One however just keep on piling on the pressure.

I have sent them all the documents they insisted on including a bank statement, copies of DWP letters confirming how much Pension Credit I receive and an income and expenditure account.

 

 

To no avail as they just ignored all this and insisted on setting up a payment plan.

However this had to be agreed by speaking to them but whenever I tried all that happened was I got shunted to the collections dept.

who wanted payment of two months arrears before I could be put through to whoever!!

 

 

I just went round and round in circles and sometimes could not understand a word of what the call centre person was saying.

Whenever I wrote I got a generic response asking me to call to agree a short term plan or long term plan.

 

They then set Debitas on to me and it soon became clear I was talking and writing to the same people who just chose to ignore my conversations, letters and what went on before.

 

Following a default notice they have now set the heavies on to me!

 

Fredrickson International (FI) first wrote to me on 21st Jan saying they had been instructed by Cap1 and demanding payment in full to themselves.

 

 

I wrote back immediately saying that I was making a token payment to Cap1 and shall continue to do so until I receive written authority from Cap1 that I should now pay FI.

 

There then followed a number of phone calls which I ignored as I knew it was them and there are only so many times I can go over the same ground knowing that no-one listens to what I have to say. One Sunday night the auto call must have got stuck as it rang me 5 times in 6 minutes!

 

I eventually picked up the phone the on 1st Feb and refused to give the security details over the phone and told them I had written to them and would only deal with them in writing.

 

 

They said they hadn't had the letter and when I asked if they had bought the debt they said I would have to give answers to the security questions first. I declined and they said they would await my letter.

 

Got a letter today which is dated 1st Feb saying I now have 7 days to pay the debt in full otherwise they will take immediate action. Should it be necessary to issue Court Court proceedings then further additional costs will be added to the outstanding balance ie. Interest of £1256.40, Court fees of £300 and Solicitors costs of £100. Nowhere in the letter do they say that they own the debt and they refer to Cap1 as their client in the Brand/Product heading.

 

Is this another scare tactic and are they allowed to charge so much interest on top of the interest Cap1 have added to the account these past 6 months?

 

I was thinking of writing back to FI saying I have no knowledge of the debt to them and unless they can prove I owe it to them then they must hand it back to Cap1. Should I also send a CCA request to Cap1 as a form of retaliation although I'm not disputing the debt?

 

As I said before I am on Pension credit which isn't how I expected to end up after 40 years of working for a living.

Following advice from CAB I have offered and make the token payment which is all I can afford from what's coming in.

 

 

Assistance with my housing costs (mortgage interest) will be reduced soon I and I shall have to find a further £50 per month from somewhere. They know I have a mortgage so I can only assume they hope I sell up and pay them off and rendering me homeless.

[maroondevo52]

Hello and Welcome,

 

Any charges on Credit Cards are re-claimable, do you have any idea what amount of the balance on your accounts are charges.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[digger279]

Hi,

The only charges were late or failure to pay default sums and over limit sums as a result of them piling on the interest. These eventually stopped when the majority of creditors accepted the token payments.

[Dustyd]

Have you SAR'd them?

 

I've heard Cap One cannot produce true signed copies of the original agreements. This maybe a way of slowing it down and getting them to be more reasonable.

 

Dusty

[Craigbadger]

Depending on when it was from,

Capital 1 agreements were pretty bad and full of damning errors and were not corrected till pretty late on.

 

 

Send a CCA request with a pound and see what they come back with.

There was someone on here with it in writing that Cap 1 used to scan the sig page and destroy, problem was the sig page has nothing on it.

 

No agreement or errors means the debt becomes legally unenforceable giving you room to eat and pay more important things.

[digger279]

Thanks guys.

I will consider the CCA route but my immediate concern was how to handle Fredrickson.

Was thinking of sending them this:-

 

"I am in receipt of your letter dated 1st February which arrived today.

I would point out I have no knowledge of any such debt being owed to Fredrickson International Limited and unless you can provide evidence as to my liability towards you for the debt in question, please ensure the matter is handed back to Capital One (Europe)plc.

As you seem intent on asking for payment for this account, I will reiterate that you will of course be aware I have absolutely no intention of paying money to you, or anyone else who can not prove they own the alleged debt or indeed that I owe it.

I would ask that no further contact be made concerning the above account as well as the ceasing of generically produced correspondence, unsolicited phone calls and text messages unless you can provide evidence as to my liability towards you for the debt in question.

I await your written confirmation that this matter is now closed. Otherwise I will have no option but to make a complaint to the trading standards department and consider informing the OFT of your actions.

On 30th January last you made 5 phone calls between 14.41 and 14.47 which I consider amounts to psychological harassment and these actions should cease forthwith failing which I shall report the matter.

I trust this outlines my position clearly and you may consider this to be my final response to you.

Yours faithfully,"

[Bazooka Boo]

Freds will probably hand it over to their tame solicitor, Bryan 'Bloody' Carter, however.

 

IMO I would first send these fools the normal 'prove it' letter just to start the ball rolling and to give you some breathing space whilst you send the CCA request to Cr@p one.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?428-General-debt-letter-if-you-know-nothing-of-the-debt

Edit the telephone harassment and doorstep collection letter into it also;

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?410-LETTER-USED-WHEN-A-DCA-THREATENS-A-DOORSTEP-VISIT

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?493-Harassment-by-telephone-response-letter

 

Send Cr@pone a CCA request enclose a £1 postal order.

 

Then vent your spleen to these lot and complain about the treatment of this corrupt industry.

OFT&TS via http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/contact

The CSA of which both Freds & C1 are members http://www.csaconsumers-uk.com/page/i-have-a-complaint

 

Your local MPhttp://www.writetothem.com/

[digger279]

"IMO I would first send these fools the normal 'prove it' letter just to start the ball rolling and to give you some breathing space whilst you send the CCA request to Cr@p one."

 

 

Thanks for the advice. The "prove it " letter seems only to apply if I know nothing of debt. Should it be sent regardless to Fredricksons as I am making the token payment to cap1 which is confirmation that I owe the money? Sorry for being a bit thick but I do lose the plot when under pressure!

[Bazooka Boo]

Yes I would send it to freds, as after all you are paying direct to C1 and have no idea what Freds are muttering on about!

[Tingy]

I like your logic!

 

I would actually take a slightly different tack though. I'd send F's the CCA request letter below. I choose this one as F's are obviously pursuing this debt regardless. This places the onus on them to return it to the OC thus showing you they don't own it, and through the references to CPUTR 2008 shows you're not going to be a push over if they send a reconstituted agreement. It kills several birds with one stone.

 

Please amend paragragh 1 to suit. ie s77 Fixed sum credit such as loans, s78 Running account credit such as credit cards & catalogues and s79 Hire agreements.

 

 

Your Address

 

Date

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:− Account/Reference Number 4563210025897412

 

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request, the provisions of s.77(6) will apply.

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

 

I would like you also to take note therefore that this letter serves as an additional formal request under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations (CPUTR), 2008 for written confirmation as to whether MBNA currently hold or have ever held a properly executed Consumer Credit Agreement in their possession pertaining to myself and if not, to kindly confirm so in writing.

Your attention is also drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b),6 and 7 of the above regulations (CPUTR 2008).

 

I enclose a postal order in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

 

We look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

print your name

[digger279]

Hi,

 

The postman has been busy today!!

 

I sent off the CCA request as outlined in Tingy’s post #10 above.

This was sent to F’s by recorded delivery on Saturday 5th Feb.

 

Got a letter from Cap1 dated 10th Feb saying they aren’t dealing with my account any longer.

It has been passed to F’s as I have broken the terms and conditions of my credit card.

Suggested I could contact the agency on 001 212 931 6760 which I think is a USA number?

I never wrote to Cap1 so assume F’s got in touch with them as a result of my CCA request.

 

Got two letters from F’s both dated 9th Feb.

 

1st one thanked me for my communication and they were seeking clients instructions and would get back to me.

In meantime account on hold. No mention of my CCA request or when they got it.

 

2nd one enclosed a financial statement as “arranged” even though I never asked for one!!

Require me to complete and return within next 7 days failing which they will pass the case to Bryan Carter.

 

I had already sent a financial statement to Cap1 months ago which they had acknowledged.

Cap1’s request was intrusive enough but this one takes the biscuit!

 

 

I’ve scanned a copy in case you’ve never seen the type of info they want.

No way am I letting them have my bank account details, value of my house, mortgage etc.

 

The bottom line is they have totally ignored my request so do I write back to F’s demanding they deal with it and tell them Cap1 already have a copy of my financial statement?

[digger279]

Oh I forgot to mention...Cap1 have already served a default notice so does this affect my CCA request and prevents me from challenging enforceability?

[Bazooka Boo]

Unfortunately theose scans are too small, you need to convert them into PDF's or use a host site like tinypic or photobucket.

 

They do like to delude themselves and make themselves sound more important that they really are, I wouldn't fill in their pathetic I&E form, as it will probably state that you give them the right to process those details with anyone and everyone.

 

Either get a proper I&E form off this site or from http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/budget_sheet.php?country=england_wales

 

Their puerile threat that if you don't jump when they say or ask how hight they will pass it to their tame DCA bryan carter, who is easily put back in his box, is laughable.

If you reply to them I wouldn't do it in their time scale, send it when you want.

 

Can you scan and post up the DN they sent, have the terminated the account yet?

[digger279]

Hi again,

 

I’ve attached PDF’s and hope these are readable.

 

Fred 1 and 2 relate to their I&E form.

I have already sent Cap1 details of my I&E a few months back but it didn’t do any good as they seemed to ignore it and wanted me to come to either a short term arrangement or a long term one.

 

 

The number they gave me to ring just put me through to their collections dept. which resulted in me going round and round in circles without agreement as my token payment wasn’t acceptable.

 

I feel like telling Freds that Cap1 already have the info and if they are acting for them then surely they can get it from them.

All my other creditors have accepted my original I&E so why not them?

None of them wanted bank account details, property value etc and were quite satisfied that I was receiving Pension Credit to get by on.

 

 

No doubt their attitude will change as time goes by and I shall have to deal with it as best I can. There isn’t a great deal of equity in my house as it is but at the end of the day I need to live somewhere and a forced sale would leave me homeless.

 

The DF notice and follow up statement seem to be in order. These were delivered in October and November and then Debitas got involved. I told them what had been sent to Cap1 but water off ducks back.

 

Having served the CCA request on Fred’s which also acted as a formal additional request what happens now? Do I wait until the 14 working days are up and if Fred or Cap1 don’t come up with the proper documentation what then? Am starting to get rather worried now and do appreciate all the help.

Fred 2.PDF

DF2.PDF

DF3.PDF

Fred 1.PDF

DF1.PDF

[teaboy2]

Wait for fred to get back to you on your CCA request.

 

If you don't receive by the 14 days deadline then they are in default of your cca request and as such neither them nor anyone else can enforce the debt via the courts. So send them the below letter if you do not receive the CCA.

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Date:

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/78. This was signed for as delivered on the **DATE**

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE** (12+2 working days after you made the initial request).

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you/your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become currently unenforceable at law.

 

As you have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested. You will also be aware of the CPUTR 2008 and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection which state under the title Deceptive and/or unfair methods - Examples of unfair practices are as follows - 2.8

 

(i) - 'Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued'

 

(k) - 'Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonable queried or disputed debt'

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 21 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

 

I look forward to hearing from you. This should be in writing, I have no wish to correspond by telephone.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

So right now you have nothing to worry about, and you certainly will have no need to worry if they fail to provide you with a copy of the CCA, as it probably means they do not have a CCA.

 

Also your dfault notice was dated the 15/10/2010. yet the termination notice (dated 17/10/2010) claims you defaulted on the 17/10/2010 it is clear you can not have defaulted twice. So i would suspect the termination to be inaccurate in regards to the date of the default, though others may beable to elaborate on this further. If i am right, and it is inaccurate, then you may have a claim against the creditor for unlawful recission of contract.

Edited February 14, 2011 by teaboy2
Added last sentence regarding termination notice containing incorrect Default Date.

[Bazooka Boo]

For starters the DN they issued is as effective as indicators on a submarine, you should write to them and accept their unlawful repudiation of the agreement.

How much are the arrears on this account? Can you raise this amount and keep it safe in a savings account?

 

You need to keep EVERYTHING in writing and have a paper trail of evidence, unless you are able to record your phone calls then you have no proof of these calls ever taking place, it is your word against theirs.

 

How did you send the CCA request? Was it recorded delivery or normal first/second class?

 

If you sent it recorded then it is 12 'working days' from the day they received it, if it was normal post then it is 12+2 working days from the day after you sent it.

 

And it is pointless worrying about it, it's only money, besides worrying is like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do, but gets you knowhere!

 

As for that I&E form they sent you, I wouldn't use that, use your own get one off here or from national debtline.

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/budget_sheet.php?country=england_wales

[digger279]

Do I tell them their DN is unlawful and how do I back it up?

Arrears are in excess of £1k and I would be hard pushed to raise this at present but a relative might be able to help out if this will be beneficial.

 

I’ve received a reply from Cap1 in response to my CCA request which was sent to Freds by recorded delivery..

They have sent me a reconstituted copy with a copy of the original signature page.

The reconstituted copy runs into 11 pages and I can confirm that the copy of the signature page is authentic.

 

I attach copies of the covering letter which explains their position.

 

On the face of it I think they have fulfilled their obligations and I suppose they will be unleashing Freds once more!!

 

I don’t know if any of this is relevant but the response timescales aren’t all they should be:-

· Request with additional formal request sent to Freds on 5th Feb by recorded delivery.

· Signed for by Freds on 7th Feb and I assume they or Cap 1 have 12 working days from 7th Feb. If Feb 7th is day one would this allow them till 22nd Feb to send or is it deliver their response?

· Does Cap1 get any extra time to respond as I originally sent the request to Freds with an additional formal request?

· The letter from Cap1 is dated 18th Feb which is well inside the deadline.

· HOWEVER the envelope is franked 24th Feb which puts them on the limit for the response?

· I don’t know when their letter was delivered to my address as I’ve been staying at a relative’s but it wasn’t sent recorded as I didn’t get back until 27th and I live alone .

 

Not sure where I stand on this one and perhaps someone could confirm I have got the timescales correct and offer further guidance.

Thanks in advance and thanks to everyone that has responded to date.

Page 2.PDF

Page 1.PDF

Edited February 28, 2011 by digger279
Tried to insert quote

[digger279]

Not having much success in inserting quotes but I was replying to Bazooka Boo!!! Hope my post makes sense.

[Bazooka Boo]

Right, regards to the DN being faulty, due to some of these dubious debt management companies and others who have abused the system, you are no longer able to rely on faulty DN's anymore, as they are allowed to send out a correct enforceable version once they are aware the first one is not enforceable, so the UR argument is out the window.

 

However, what they have said in that a recon satisfies your request is correct, however as far as I know, they will still have to provide the original in court if they wish to pursue it down that avenue.

 

IMO, your best form of defence would be to make an offer of payment to them, and this MUST be realistic and comfortable for you to afford and pay each week/month. So do your own I&E form, see what you have got left to play with, if anything, and make them an offer, IN WRITING, if they refuse this, you will have it in writing, so even if all you offer them is £1 a month until your situation improves, then so be it, it matters not if they refuse this, just pay it anyway, then if they were so foolish as to take this to court, no DJ would look too kindly on them for bringing such action when you are paying what you can realistically afford anyhow.

[rockwell304]

Evening Bazooka,

 

Is there any point in the Op posting up the recon agreement sent by Cap 1? Or has challenging agreements largely gone the same way as DN's.

[teaboy2]

Right, regards to the DN being faulty, due to some of these dubious debt management companies and others who have abused the system, you are no longer able to rely on faulty DN's anymore, as they are allowed to send out a correct enforceable version once they are aware the first one is not enforceable, so the UR argument is out the window.

 

 

heres a copy of todays judgement i suggest everyone reads through it. As i personally do not see how this changes things in regards to unlawful rescission as they were always entilted to remedy a bad DN so the key is when they take you to court on a bad one, or if they sell the account on a bad DN.

 

JUDGMENT - HARRISON v LINK (2).doc

[Bazooka Boo]

I suggest you stop barking orders at me.

[teaboy2]

I suggest you stop barking orders at me.

 

Whos barking orders at who, as i certainly was not barking orders at you, read my post i clearly said "i SUGGEST (making it a suggestion not an order/demand) everyone reads through it", i did not say "you and you alone should read it"!

 

I only quoted the relevant part of your post, due to it being a reference to the judgement given that i attached in my post. As such it was not a direct reponse to your post, and my personal opinion in my post regarding the judgement is just that, my person opinion, as it has always been the case that they were allowed to remedie a bad DN even prior to todays judgement. They still can not enforce, via court, a debt on the back of a bad DN and if they sell the account then the the bad DN can no longer be remedied as the agreement no longer exists between you and the OC as they are no longer the legal owners of the account, which as such is then unlawful termination.

[digger279]

 

IMO, your best form of defence would be to make an offer of payment to them, and this MUST be realistic and comfortable for you to afford and pay each week/month. So do your own I&E form, see what you have got left to play with, if anything, and make them an offer, IN WRITING, if they refuse this, you will have it in writing, so even if all you offer them is £1 a month until your situation improves, then so be it, it matters not if they refuse this, just pay it anyway, then if they were so foolish as to take this to court, no DJ would look too kindly on them for bringing such action when you are paying what you can realistically afford anyhow.

 

Not heard a dicky bird from FI or Cap1 for 2 weeks so no doubt planning their next move. I already submitted an I&E to Cap1 months ago and set up a token payment of £1 per month via standing order. Should I have cancelled this and set it up with FI or not? As far as I am aware Cap1 haven't sold the debt on.

Thanks for all the help.

[Bazooka Boo]

No if you have sent them an offer of payment and stuck to it, then there is very little they can do, and certainly they would be very foolish to even think of putting this before a DJ!