School Issues

[DOTCOM]

I don't know if this is in the correct plaxce but I hope someone can answer.

My nephew has been permanantly excluded from school for allegations of bullying, he is 13.

My niece is fighting the exclusion and we have had fantastic help from ACE. We were told that we have a legal right to see all statements made against my nephew with the names of the alledged victims obliterated, the statements should be signed and dated again with the signatures blocked out.

We requested these statements from the school but only received vague details of all alligations none were dated. We again asked the school for statements and were told that they were with the police at the request of the school police officer. My neice spoke to the school officer who said this was not the case as no formal complaint had been made. We went back to the school who then said they wasn't quite sure where statements were. We got advice from the Local education authority who said ask the school for a police log number. We asked the school for this but were told that the head had taken legal advice and she could not give us these statements because she had to consider the welfare of the pupils who had made them, and that they were with the police in case a formal complaint was to be made at a later date.

Our question is this, do the police hold statements just in case a complaint is made?

Does my neice have a right to see any statements about her son even if they are with the police?

We feel like we are being lied to.

Hope somebody can help thanks in advance.

[walkinthepark]

Is your nephew disabled? If not. this might not be the right forum and it might get overlooked.

[PriorityOne]

What kind of bullying has your son been accused of..... and how many children is he alleged to have bullied? Some background re. the incident(s) might be helpful.

[maroondevo52]

Thread moved to Legal Issues Forum.

[Jasper1965]

this will sound cynical but trust me I have first hand experience of this.

 

Do not trust the school one inch, record everything phonecalls, letters etc. Keep logs of all communications.

Approach the School Governors but do not expect them to answer difficult questions.

do not trust the Education Welfare Officers one inch. Assume they are your enemy, what they say to you and what they do in Court or behind your back are very different.

Do not trust the local education authority.

 

You must Subject Access Request the LEA asking for all records and a copy of your nephews school records.

 

Be prepared for lots to go missing or to be rewritten.

 

LEA's are the worst people I have ever had to deal with, claimed in Court to have served a legal notice on my son in person, both Headmaster and SEWO could vividly remember the moment they served him the notice.

Upon crossexamination they were asked how this was possible when the school records clearly showed he was not present on the day or at all that week or the week before or the week after.

 

Following a 20 mins recess during which time the ed dept brief, hm and sewo all joined the magistrates for a discussion they remembered that "Because our son wasn't at school that day they had had to serve the papers by post).

 

magistrates loved it and I was fined the maximum permissible for having the pertinence to defend our corner with such nonsense as accurate school records, etc. etc. etc.

 

Son was removed from the register without the permission of his parents or the lea but unilaterally by the hand of the hm.

He missed the last 3 years of his education.

This all started when we got a phone call from a hospital seeking permission to give our son an emergency blood transfusion. Turned out our son had been truanting with the knowledge of the school for 3 months, bizarreley it wasn't our son who had returned to school for his dinner but another lad who had borrowed his civvy coat while he (our son) walked back into school and had been impaled on a fence.

Not one phone call or letter ever sent from the school.

Court docs showed otherwise with a neat row of logged phone calls each morning for the entire period.

Our phone records proved the calls were not made.

magistrates uninterested the LEA knows whats best.

Bunch of losers and chancers who do nothing except look out for their own backsides.

Watch out for musical SEWO's too.

 

Good luck but please understand these people do not hold the childs education in any esteem and will stop at nothing to protect each other.

[nicklea]

this will sound cynical but trust me I have first hand experience of this.

 

Do not trust the school one inch, record everything phonecalls, letters etc. Keep logs of all communications.

Approach the School Governors but do not expect them to answer difficult questions.

do not trust the Education Welfare Officers one inch. Assume they are your enemy, what they say to you and what they do in Court or behind your back are very different.

Do not trust the local education authority.

 

You must Subject Access Request the LEA asking for all records and a copy of your nephews school records.

 

Be prepared for lots to go missing or to be rewritten.

 

 

magistrates uninterested the LEA knows whats best.

Bunch of losers and chancers who do nothing except look out for their own backsides.

Watch out for musical SEWO's too.

 

Good luck but please understand these people do not hold the childs education in any esteem and will stop at nothing to protect each other.

 

I can only second what jasper has said. You really cannot trust any of these people.

 

Just assume that anything they tell you to your face they are lying about or will say the opposite in writing.

 

If it's not in writing then just assume that it's a waste of time trying to rely on it.

[DOTCOM]

Thanks Jasper you have confirmed what we are already finding out, we are sick of different people ie welfare officer educational psychologist saying 'yes we agree this or that is wrong but we can only say so much.'

Priorityone, it is hard to know how many pupils he has bullied because as I said the school have not actually provided statements.

We have a sheet of paper which saysthings like

Pupil A

Your child sent offensive text messages and verbally abused pupil A. On 14th Dec this turned into a physical assault when your child touched her in the breast area. My nephews answer to this was pupil a kicked him between the legs he pushed her away if it was the breast area it was by accident.(he has two witnesses to this incident). School has not seen text because they have been deleted

Pupil B

Your child would hug pupil b when they met on the corridor. The hugs were univited. and so on they said he repeatedly punched a pupil during a lesson leaving severe bruisin, my neice was never informed of this and it is not in his school record.

They have not given dates of incidents but said it is ongoing, yet in June when he was put on a Pastoral support Program the school told my neice she is worrying unnecessary, they assured her he was no where near exclusion as he was not a danger to himself or others,he had never been aggressive.

We have discovered that the school has not followed government guidelines to carry out the exclusion.

We really want to know can the school withold statements they have on my nephew or can the police ?

[Jasper1965]

We really want to know can the school withold statements they have on my nephew or can the police ?

 

No they cannot. You have a right to those and if you are refused then you must use the data protection act 1998 to get hold of them. They may then alter certain parts ie obscure the names of other children but you are entitled to get everything (you wont) but get as much as you can as early as you can before it starts to be rewritten.

 

Don't speak to them on the 'phone if you can avoid it, everything in writing and personal meetings in front of an independent witness of your choice.

 

Guidelines Shmidelines.

 

They will do what they want and back each other up.

 

Do not allow a SEWO into your home without an independent witness as we discovered a 5 minute chat over a cuppa and a cigarette with my wife ended up in Court on a witness statement supposedly to have been made under PACE.

SEWO started mildly slagging hm off hinting he might have handled the situation better, wife gave him two barrels which minus the part of the SEWO ended up in a magistrates court statement to prove "what we were really like".

 

 

Has your nephew been deprived of a right to full time education by the unilateral action of one member of LEA staff? ie the headmaster (personally) has excluded him

 

Get your MP involved straight away too!!!!

[cymruambyth]

Has your nephew, appealed to the governors and then the LEA?

Not all schools try to con parents, some have full documentary evidence which should be supplied in a pack to you before the governor hearing. You are entitled to take someone into this hearing with you.

Was he excluded for the one off oddence of bullying or a culmination of events?

[DOTCOM]

Hi, my neice is getting all her evidence together to take her case to the Governers, we have highlighted many incidents where the school has not followed the government guidelines on exclusions. When we asked for a date when the bullying occured my neice was told it had been ongoing. We have been through the school records and can find no incident report of bullying. My nephew is no angel and my neice has been called into school on numerous occasions, she has always backed the school 100%. My nephew had just been placed on SEN school action plus with lots of strategies put in place to help him but unfortunately none of these have been given time to work.

Jasper, my nephew is being deprived of his education which is most upsetting because although he has behaviour issues he is a very bright boy. The LEA has dictated that he must now attend a Pupil Refferal Unit for 7 weeks while they assess his behaviour, he is not getting any education and is mixing with really badly behaved children I can only see this making him worse.

We have been advised by ACE that unless this was his second exclusion he should not be in a PRU and he has every right to a place in another school. The Lea said they don't operate like that and he has to attend the PRU.

Edited January 26, 2011 by DOTCOM

[PriorityOne]

There seems to be a lot of negativity towards schools on this thread, so I'm not entirely sure how to comment; seeing as I work in a secondary school.

 

It's only natural to want to protect your child from any kind of unfairness, but when a child has behavioural issues.... it's because (apologies for for the bluntness here ) their behaviour is an issue. It's not just an issue for other students, it's an issue for staff as well.... and often on H&S grounds.

 

I work in a behavioural unit within a mainstream secondary school. Most of the students I teach are off the wall a lot of the time because of some minor exchange between one another that's quickly blown out of proportion because most of them react with violence. Staff and other students take their personal welfare in their hands every day, so while I can appreciate the frustration you may feel about lack of evidence, etc., this is probably because most of the time, staff just do not have the time to record things properly. This is not right, I agree..... but it doesn't equate to lying about it. Staff have a duty to protect students in their care; that means all of them and if children with behavioural issues present too much of a threat to those without behavioural issues and/or staff, then it needs to be addressed. Excluding a student is either a last resort or, a decision that's been taken following dangerous/abusive behaviour.

 

My advice to you is to look at the reason why your nephew has behavioural issues in the first place (if you haven't done so already) and aim to work with the school (or not) to address these instead of trying to apportion blame on school staff who really do go through the mill every day in the course of trying to teach some very difficult children; in a behavioural unit or otherwise.

 

Apologies for any offence caused.... but it's important to have a balanced view here.

 

[nicklea]

There seems to be a lot of negativity towards schools on this thread, so I'm not entirely sure how to comment; seeing as I work in a secondary school.

 

P1,

 

I think that it's not necessarily negative against schools as such, just the way that local authority staff and others can be very two faced. Saying things in private and making threats in private that they would never dare make in writing.

 

It's the same thing as when people are recommended here not to talk to DCAs on the phone but to get everything in writing so they cannot try to bully or lie to you and then say something totally different in writing.

 

In this respect, these people can be very much like DCAs.

[DOTCOM]

Thank you for your comments and I fully understand that teachers do a very difficult job. We have looked at why my nephew has behaviour problems and know it is because he has been around a very abusive relationship between his mother and father. They have now split up and the school have been kept informed every step of the way. As I said my neice has supported the school 100% and worked with the school to get outside support ie anger management, counselling and meetings with the brief intervention team. The school had assured my neice that although they considered my nephews behaviour to be an issue he was not aggressive and not a danger to himself or others. The main concern was his bad language which we all agree is totally unacceptable. I am not trying to apportion blame but teachers are proffessionals and to safe guard them selves things should and must be documented properly.

Yes it is right to protect children from unfairness and when up against teachers pupils rarely have a voice. There are many marvellous teachers who deserve every penny they earn but like in all walks of life there are teachers who simply turn up for the pay at the end of the month.

[DOTCOM]

Priorityone as you work in a school can you advise whether the head is right to withold witness statements. I believe she is using this paragraph from the government guidelines to justify her actions

 

'there are some things which the school is not required to disclose, for example anything which is likely to cause serious harm to the physical or mental health of the child or of anyone else and information which also related to another person who can be identified'.

 

It does not explain why she lied about the statements first saying they would upset my neice then they were with the police then they may be sent to the police?

[PriorityOne]

P1,

 

I think that it's not necessarily negative against schools as such, just the way that local authority staff and others can be very two faced. Saying things in private and making threats in private that they would never dare make in writing.

 

It's the same thing as when people are recommended here not to talk to DCAs on the phone but to get everything in writing so they cannot try to bully or lie to you and then say something totally different in writing.

 

In this respect, these people can be very much like DCAs.

 

Yes... agreed.... I think that happens in many walks of llife...

 

Thank you for your comments and I fully understand that teachers do a very difficult job. We have looked at why my nephew has behaviour problems and know it is because he has been around a very abusive relationship between his mother and father. They have now split up and the school have been kept informed every step of the way. As I said my neice has supported the school 100% and worked with the school to get outside support ie anger management, counselling and meetings with the brief intervention team. The school had assured my neice that although they considered my nephews behaviour to be an issue he was not aggressive and not a danger to himself or others. The main concern was his bad language which we all agree is totally unacceptable. I am not trying to apportion blame but teachers are proffessionals and to safe guard them selves things should and must be documented properly.

Yes it is right to protect children from unfairness and when up against teachers pupils rarely have a voice. There are many marvellous teachers who deserve every penny they earn but like in all walks of life there are teachers who simply turn up for the pay at the end of the month.

 

I'm so sorry your nephew witnessed an abusive relationship; some of the kids I work with have gone through that as well and it's very difficult for them to come to terms with their own feelings and more importantly, to recognise why they have those feelings. Memories can be buried very deep sometimes. Kids realise that they lash out but don't understand the flashpoint... There are good and bad teachers in the profession it's true. In all my time working with difficult kids, it's never been the kids that have hacked me off; its always been the people I have to work with. Some people are just wrong for that kind of job.

 

Priorityone as you work in a school can you advise whether the head is right to withold witness statements. I believe she is using this paragraph from the government guidelines to justify her actions

 

'there are some things which the school is not required to disclose, for example anything which is likely to cause serious harm to the physical or mental health of the child or of anyone else and information which also related to another person who can be identified'.

 

It does not explain why she lied about the statements first saying they would upset my neice then they were with the police then they may be sent to the police?

 

It's hard to say whether it's right or wrong to be honest but the guidelines do seem to have been interpreted this way by your head teacher, yes. If the statements are already with the police then I doubt she can send them to you if they're part of an investigation. On the other hand, there's nothing to stop you from making a request for all info. under the Data Protection Act. I think someone suggested this earlier. I assume it would work in the same way as with financial institutions; they have to give you any/all information that they hold.... but I'm not sure how this would work requesting info. about a child....

[DOTCOM]

Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate all the time and effoert you people put into this site, it really does help.

[DOTCOM]

Hi everyone,

As expected the Governors upheld my nephews exclusion. I attended the hearing with my niece and I can only say I am totally disappointed with proffessionals who resort to lying. The head said we were offered a managed move to another school which is totally untrue. I personally asked the head why she had never interviewed my nephew and asked for his version of eventsand pointed out 'Government Guidelines state a head MUST before exclusion ask, and indeed encourage the accused pupil to give their version of events' her answer to this was 'when I saw him he was in a mood and I did not feel it appropriate to question him at that time.'

I need help in preparing our appeal for the Independant Appeal Panel. I have to set out in writing why we wish to appeal. W e are using the fact that

1) We didn't get witness statements (governors stated this was lawful)

2)Head never asked nephew regarding allegations

3)Governors referred to incidents from 2008 when we were assured the problems taken into consideration for the exclusion started in 2009

4)Head did not give regard to Government Guidelines on exclusions

Can anybody help me compose a letter thanks a lot.

Any advice would be more than welcome.

[PriorityOne]

Not getting a witness statement from your nephew is very slack actually. We always have to get witness statements about everything..... so you need to place a lot of emphasis on this in your appeal.

 

Also, where is the proof that he was offered a place somewhere else?

[DOTCOM]

Thanks priority, there is no proof he was offered a place somewhere else. To be truthful in one conversation with a member of staff my neice was asked if he was happy at the school, my neice replied that he had asked to move but she felt it was simply because one of his friends was at another school, it was simply a conversation that my neice did not place any importance on. If she had been offered a managed move would schools have been mentioned etc? Do you think we should appeal, and any idea how we word the appeal letter?

Thanks

[PriorityOne]

Thanks priority, there is no proof he was offered a place somewhere else. To be truthful in one conversation with a member of staff my neice was asked if he was happy at the school, my neice replied that he had asked to move but she felt it was simply because one of his friends was at another school, it was simply a conversation that my neice did not place any importance on. If she had been offered a managed move would schools have been mentioned etc? Do you think we should appeal, and any idea how we word the appeal letter?

Thanks

 

Writing an Appeal letter is way out of my comfort zone, I'm afraid.... but I would have thought that if a managed move had been suggested, then it would be on file somewhere. If it is, the why haven't you been informed? If not, then where's the idea come from?

 

The witness statement is your main ammunition here, IMO.... they should have had them from everyone involved in the incident(s) and also, from your nephew. If they've failed to record this properly, then this will cause problems for them if you go for an appeal.

 

[DOTCOM]

Thanks very much. If anybody has help re appeal letter please?

[cymruambyth]

I'll try and find some paperwork and try to help later today or tomorrow.

[DOTCOM]

thank you

[DOTCOM]

Well I manage to do the appeal letter and the appeal is set for Monday 21st March.

Today we received minutes of Governers meeting OMG they even put pen to paper and lie.

When I asked the head why she had not questioned my nephew about the allegations she replied that he was in a mood and she thought it best to walk away.

The minutes state that she advised us that she had taken police adice and was told to stop her investigations so she could not question him. We now realise this is not and never was a police matter.

The minutes also state that my neice said she thought she could not have a managed move because her son was on a Pastoral Support Plan this was not said.

There are many lies in the minutes, I am now beginning to loose faith in the whole system.

[cymruambyth]

Sorry i didn't get back, I have had family problems that have meant I have been away from home.

The LEA will send a representative who will advise you at the hearing. Your neice will be allowed a 'friend' who can speak, look carefully at your options for support combined with knowledge. Just advise school that you will be attending and not who is attending with you........