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Halifax Repossesion Circa 1992 Advice Needed Please

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Hi all,

 

Some advice please.

 

Here is my story.

 

 

I had a joint Halifax mortgage with a previous partner some 20 years ago.

We split up and I could not meet the payments and the house was consequently reposssed.

 

 

We purchased the property for 40K and it was sold at auction for 16K, leaving a shortfall of 24K

As the Ex was still liable for half she made an agreement too pay Halifax a lump sum of 7-8K

as a deal to cover her half of the outstanding balance of 12K.

 

I was left with the other half (12K)

unlike the ex I was not in any position to make a lump sum deal.

 

 

Instead I have made regular payments of various amounts (£20-100) per month with some periods of not paying anything.

Now this debt has been passed to at least 3 DCAs over the 17-18 year period that I have been making payments.

 

 

It is currently with Counselling Intermediary Services (CIS) and has been for at least 6 years.

I have no idea exactly how much I have paid toward this mortgage debt but it's not an insignificant sum for sure.

 

More recenty I have missed a number of payments and they have threatended to send the debt back to Halifax who will issue court proccedings against me.

 

To be frank I am sick of paying this debt as I feel, and have always felt agrieved that they slde my house soooooo cheaply

and then lumbered me with the oustanding.

 

 

Also whenever CIS writes letter to me it always states balance at instruction: £14,244.75. I am thinking how can this be?

I never owed thwm £14K and what about all those payments I have made for 17-18 years??

What should I do.

 

Thanks in advance

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Hi TomTom,

 

Unfortunately, as you have been paying there is no possibility of using statute-bar as a way to deal with this case so other avenues will need to be explored.

 

As a starting point I would suggest making a Data Subject Access Request (SAR) to the lender. There are templates for these letters on this site, send an appropriate letter giving details of the account to the lender together with the maximum statutory fee of £10.00. It is advisable to sign the letter so your request is not delayed by the lender's attempts to verify your identity and give some detail about the information you are looking for. In this case, I would ask for a full breakdown of the account from inception to today showing ALL transactions, details of the possession proceedings, details of the steps taken to value and sell the property including the reasoning behind the decision to put the property in auction, steps taken to recover sums from your ex and details of how much they received from her and the calculation of the sum they are holding you liable for including an up to date balance.

 

It might be possible to take issue with the size of the shortfall given the sale price achieved but it's very difficult, particularly bearing in mind the state of the market and the economy at the time. To pursue any sort of legal claim you're probably looking at a need for expert witnesses etc which can get expensive. More realistically you might be able to get them to write off the remaining balance if they have difficulty evidencing the debt after all this time or that they did their best to get a good sale price. The debt would have been considered a write off for their accounting purposes years ago and anything they get now is therefore effectively profit so they are unlikely to want to put a lot of resources into pursuing it. That said, the big banks have big purses and if they feel that not pursuing something might lead to other challenges (as happened with the mortgage redemption penalty and bank charge cases) they will fight matters.

 

When you've got some more information about what you owe and what happened around the time of the possession then plenty of people on these forums can help with raising challenges.

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That' sounds like a good starting point Killer, thanks. I Will send the SAR recorded delivery and will post back.

 

Thanks TT

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Okay this is a Copy of the SAR I will be sending on Tuesday. Any comments on its contents appreciated. Cherrs:-)

 

template removed - dx

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Very comprehensive, hopefully you will get something useful in response, although I doubt you'll get anything in relation to question 9 given the account was taken out years before the Data Protection Act 1998 came in! It might've been caught under a similar the DPA 1984 but I can't remember if there was one.

 

My only real points are in relation to question 1, there won't be a signed executed agreement as we are dealing with a non Consumer Credit Act regulated mortgage. The way mortgages worked then (and to some extent still do) is that you fill in an application form saying what you want and sign it, if approved they send you an offer detailing what they are prepared to lend you at what rate usually with standard T's & C's as a seperate booklet (that was certainly the case with Halifax when I worked there in 1992) and if you want to proceed you sign the mortgage deed/legal charge by way of acceptance. I would therefore re-phrase point 1 as follows:-

 

1. A copy of the signed application form for the mortgage, a copy of the mortgage offer, a copy of the relevant mortgage conditions and a copy of the executed mortgage deed or legal charge.

 

You could also expand point 2:-

 

2. Full details of the possession proceedings including but not limited to a copy of the documentation comprising the claim for possession, copies of any witness statements, copies of any orders, copies of any applications made to the court and a copy of the warrant for possession.

 

You might also want to put in a request for a copy of the completion statement showing how the proceeds of sale were allocated and all correspondence issued to you since the sale of the property.

 

The only other issue is that if you don't get everything do not assume they are breaching the DPA, they might simply not have it. In a lot cases you see on CAG people jump to that conclusion if they don't get something they have asked for but (especially after long periods of time) documents do get destroyed and for accounts dating back this far computer records were not as extensive as they are now. For example I can tell you that Halifax introduced an arrears system in 1994-5 on which electronic notes were made of calls etc but before that everything was on paper. Same goes for the general administration on accounts, up until about 1995-96 letters were still dictated and sent to typing so if the paper file has been destroyed there won't be much to go on.

 

To prove they've got any kind of claim they are going to need the deed, terms and conditions etc so I would imagine they will have kept that kind of thing even if only in scanned form.

 

KC

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Updates made and ready to send. Thanks KC:-)

 

I will keep you posted with what they pull out from the dust covered archives.

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Hi heres my update:

 

After requesting a raff of requests in my SAR, all listed above, I received very little really from HBOS. In a nutshell I recieved the following for HBOS:

 

1) A computerised version of Mortgage application report.

2) A computerised version of Mortgage account report from inception to possesion.

3) Corresspondence leading upto possesion including warrant.

4) A few years of correspendence from when the debt was passed onto a collector with last entry over 11 years ago.

 

No proof of how much the house was sold for and why etc. What deal they brockered with my aprtner for half her share. No account of any payments made for the last 10-11 years. How the hell do I know when to stop paying if I don't know how much I owe. With respect to the deed and terms and conditions, I am not sure what these are but they don't seem present.

 

Any info on were I stand and what to do know would be greatly appreciated:-)

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Hi Tom,

 

Busy at work today so will give this some thought and come back to you over the weekend or next week.

 

First thing that strikes me is they have provided nothing to confirm how much you owe never mind how that figure is substantiated. My gut reaction would be to stop paying and say you'll see them in court - if they have the temerity to file a claim stick in a defence requiring strict proof of the debt and on the basis of what they have supplied you they will be unable to proceed.

 

However, it's amazing how often documentation turns up when there's something at stake so it's a risk and I'll try to think through the options.

 

KC

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It looks as if this could have been sold 11 years ago, which would explain the lack of payment history over this period of time.... and the 3 DCAs that it's been through.

 

The SAR should really have gone to whoever's chasing you for payment, to be honest....

. because they would have been legally obliged to send you a complete breakdown of all monies received

and all monies alleged to be outstanding as well, which is what's concerning you.

 

 

All is not lost though... because somewhere in that SAR, it should give you the figure alleged to be outstanding at the end of it's life with the lender.

I suspect they will also have added fees and charges of their own prior to selling it but this is not your primary issue right now.

 

 

Your issue is to find the discrepancy between the end figure that your lender had.... and the one that CIS has now.

 

So... if you can bear to go through this procedure again, you need to send a SAR to CIS to see what they have.

 

 

I adapted one some time ago on a different thread. If you can hang on, I'll track it down and give you the link.

 

:-)

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Ok... here it is. I've posted it instead of giving you the link because some of it wouldn't have applied to you, so this is the edited version. Send by rec. delivery. Should keep them busy for a while.... :-)

 

Dear xxxxx

 

Your Ref : xxxx

 

SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST

 

(DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998)

 

 

I no longer acknowledge any debt to your company or to any "clients" you claim to represent.

 

A legal SARlink3.gif has already been sent to your "clients" (xxxxxxxx); on xx/xx/xx and to date, they have failed to provide any information whatsoever pertaining to the last 11 years. I therefore require you to confirm whether you are indeed acting as agents for xxxxxx under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations (CPUTR) 2008 and if not, to state the legal nature of the type of Assignment you have (Equitable or Absolute) and from whom. Please take note that until you are able to substantiate this request in full, that I will have no further dealings with your company and all future payments will remain suspended.

 

In addition to all information that you have on record pertaining to myself, I also require the following :

 

A full Statement of Account; including full details of all payments made for the entire duration of the account, by whom and upon what date;

 

A copy of a any Default Notice issued against my name;

 

Full details of how any alleged arrears were calculated and the date they commenced;

 

Full details pertaining to any Possession Order and when it was granted;

 

Full details of all valuations obtained for the property prior to its sale;

 

Full details pertaining to the alleged sale price, including a full breakdown of how/why this figure was accepted.

 

A full breakdown of all charges applied to the account, including all “maintenance” charges and/or otherwise, penalty fees, litigation charges and so on, including all charges/fees that may have been applied by yourselves and the justification for these.

 

A full breakdown of all interest applied for the entire duration of the account,

 

Full details/information pertaining to the sale of the property; not limited to but including, full details of the precise manner in which the property was sold in line with regulations set down by the FSA; i.e, copies and/or particulars of all adverts placed, where they were placed, dates they were placed and so on.

 

Full details of any claims made against the Mortgage Indemnity Insurance or, if no claim was made, your written confirmation by return.

 

If you are indeed acting on behalf of the original lender yourself (under Equitable Assignment), then I would assume this information to already be in your possession. If you are not acting on behalf of the original lender however, then I will require your company to produce documentary evidence to substantiate the following:

 

The date upon which this alleged account was sold to yourselves by Absolute Assignment;

 

A copy of the alleged Deed of Assignment;

 

The date upon which a Notice of Assignment was served upon myself, including a copy of the alleged Notice;

 

A full breakdown of all transactional charges/fees applied to the alleged account following its sale to yourselves, including a written explanation of the precise nature of these charges.

 

Since I have had no contact from the (original lender) for approx. xx years, I remain confused over the precise nature of their/your ongoing claim and as such, also require a full written explanation pertaining to the precise nature of your/their ongoing claim after such a long period of time and, upon what legal basis of Assignment you have been instructed to pursue this matter, along with all documentary evidence detailed above (CPUTR, 2008).

 

Please note that under English law, recovery on mortgage shortfall interest is frozen after six years and I will expect any records that you hold to reflect this. If your records do not reflect this, then I will require a written explanation as to the reason.

 

Until such times as I am in possession of all transactional data and/or otherwise, I will not be entering into any further discussions regarding income/expenditure and/or payment with anyone. Any telephone calls from your company , your "client" company or any other will now be duly logged by time and date before being terminated by myself. Any unauthorised visits to my home will be reported to the police.

 

I trust that the contents of this letter are self-explanatory. If you are unable to supply this data however, then I require written confirmation by return within the next 14 days.

 

Should you decide to pursue this matter without addressing your full obligations under The Data Protection Act, 1998 then I shall seek a Court order obliging your full compliance, together with damages at the discretion of the Court.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

:-)

Edited by PriorityOne

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Thats great thanks, I will send the SAR ASAP but what date does the DPA ( :-) ) need to change too.

 

I sent the other SAR to HBOS because I was always lead to believe from CIS that they are acting for HBOS and that CIS manage and not BUY debt. I have not been paying for a few months and CIS have apparently been in contact with HBOS which further compounds this but maybe CIS are lying, they are a DCA after all!!

 

Also Killerchick thinks the deeds and terms and condition are important, I don't beleive this was presented in my recent SAR to HBOS. Is this something that needs persuing or is it a one step at a time approach:

 

Finally the house was repossesed in 1997, so I was a few days out:-) My memory serves me wrong but I guess the brain is good at blocking traumatic events out.

Cheers TT

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Thats great thanks, I will send the SAR ASAP but what date does the DPA ( :-) ) need to change too. The date is fine as it is.

 

I sent the other SAR to HBOS because I was always lead to believe from CIS that they are acting for HBOS and that CIS manage and not BUY debt. I have not been paying for a few months and CIS have apparently been in contact with HBOS which further compounds this but maybe CIS are lying, they are a DCA after all!! Probably, but as this letter also requires them to respond truthfully under CPUTR, you'll now find out.

 

Also Killerchick thinks the deeds and terms and condition are important, I don't beleive this was presented in my recent SAR to HBOS. Is this something that needs persuing or is it a one step at a time approach: Leave this for now.... we need to establish who owns this debt first and what kind of paperwork they have, if any.

 

Finally the house was repossesed in 1997, so I was a few days out:-) My memory serves me wrong but I guess the brain is good at blocking traumatic events out.

Cheers TT

 

If the house was repossesssed in 1997, they should be kept busy for a while then.... lol. :-)

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Hi again Tom,

 

Priorityone raises an interesting point about the possibility of the debt being sold but I don't think it's relevant here and I'll explain how I've reached that conclusion.

 

I've had a look into Counselling Intermediary Services to see whether there might be anything in the theory that they could have purchased the debt and it's highly unlikely.

 

To give them their full legal name they are Counselling Intermediary Services UK Limited, they are registered under company number 06525481. Their business is stated as being financial intermediation on Companies House records and they have only been trading since 2008 which on the face of it looks odd when they have been collecting from you for 6 years. However, there was a previous business - Counselling Intermediary Services Limited registered under company number 03026629 which was struck off by Companies House in 2010 after appearing to be inactive since 2007. The two businesses have at least one common director, a Peter Fort so it looks as though one took over from the other. It would be interesting to know whether their correspondence makes it clear who you are dealing with or indeed quotes the full name of the business at all, although as we're not dealing with a CCA regulated account the trading name thing is not a major issue.

 

They made a bit of press in 2006 which made it clear they are agents for Halifax not the legal owners of the debt:-

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/may/20/moneysupplement3

 

Looking at their consumer credit licences (which is always quite useful and freely accessible here - http://www2.crw.gov.uk/pr/Default.aspx) they were originally granted a licence for company number 3026629 on 26.3.95 numbered 391549, they described themselves as a debt collection business and the licence did not cover lending which would be required by a debt purchaser - at least in relation to CCA regulated loans. The new company numbered 6525481 was granted a licence on 4.4.08, this time the nature of the business was described as mortgages and again, the category of lending was excluded. It's not conclusive because they don't need a licence to deal with unregulated mortgages and probably have one because they do other types of work as well but all the signs seem to suggest they are a DCA (or debt collection agency) NOT a debt purchaser.

 

Another tell tale sign that the debt is definitely still owned by Halifax is the statement in your first post saying the CIS threatened to send your debt back to Halifax for court proceedings to be issued if you didn't pay. If they owned the debt or it had been sold to anyone at any time they couldn't do this.

 

I doubt you'll get much response to the SAR, most of the information won't be held by CIS as they are not assignees and have only been involved for the last 6 years.

 

As is seems clear that the debt is still owned by Halifax/HBOS/Lloyds Banking Group or whatever they're calling themselves this week, CIS should be passing funds collected back to them and they should be the ones that are keeping a record of the balance. I would write back to Halifax expressing your dissatisfaction with their response to your SAR and their inability to provide a record of the transactions on the account and current balance. In light of this I would suggest you tell them you are ceasing payment with immediate effect and will only reconsider your position if you are provided with extensive evidence of any debt claimed. It may be worth adding that should they consider any further action without having provided evidence of the debt this will be vigorously defended.

 

Hopefully this will bring an end to the matter but you may want to go further and try and get money back. In which case you could perhaps total up what you have paid over the last 6 years and threaten them with a claim for this amount (ideally with evidence of the payments) on the basis that they have failed to establish the existence of any liability on your part. It depends what you want to achieve really, if you try to claim money back they will be more likely to put up a fight and try to find further evidence than if you simply say you are ceasing payment in which case they may write whatever is left off (if they even have a clue how much that is!).

 

KC

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Some interesting points about CIS there Killerschick..... but someone must have a record of these payments, as Halifax don't seem to. DCA's (or purchasers) have been known to be highly economical with the truth at times re. types of assignment but the company history that you described for CIS is interesting.

 

The first para of the SAR to CIS aims to establish where ownership lies under CPUTR 2008..... so time will tell.... :-)

Edited by PriorityOne
typo

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Thank you both, Killerschick and PriortyOne, very much for your advice on this matter. I have no real idea how much I have paid HBOS over the years but I would imagaine £1000s. It would be really nice to put this to bed but have no interest in trying to extract money from HBOS in the event things turn in my favour.

 

I will keep you posted on any developments, thanks again guys-gals :-) TT

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Hi Guys,

 

Well after many months of quite I assumed HBOS and CIS had cut there loses. However, I have a had a letter from HBOS and more recently a DCA called Transcom who are acting on behalf of Lloyds. The new outstanding sum is approaching 10K oustanding.

 

I am stuck to think what my next move should be! Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers TT:-)

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They haven't reponded to the SAR at all?

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Hi PriorityOne,

 

Thanks for the quick response. I assume from your response I should either ignore there correspondence or contact them to say that until my SAR request is answered in full then I am unprepared to acknowledge the matter further?

 

All the best TT:-)

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Hi PriorityOne,

 

Thanks for the quick response. I assume from your response I should either ignore there correspondence or contact them to say that until my SAR request is answered in full then I am unprepared to acknowledge the matter further?

 

All the best TT:-)

 

Pretty much, yes. Attach a copy of the letter sent in post 11 to a FORMAL COMPLAINT and send to whoever is chasing you now; by rec. delivery. You will need to draft up your complaint first, so if you'd like to post it up on here, I'll look at it for you before it goes off.

 

:-)

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Counselling Intermediary Services UK Limited,

I had these chasing me for a 80s repo shortfall and when i had to do a full and final i had to make the cheque out to Halifax..so i do not think they own the debt..

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Hi All,

 

After a silent 4 year period of no further correspondence. I have received a couple of letters from shoosmiths, the last one threatening court action.

 

So in return I have emailed the person dealing with my case on behalf of Halifax (BOS) to say that until they satisfy my previous SAR requests I won't be opening any dialogue.

 

Any advice on this would be great cheers TT

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Hi All,

 

I need some advice on this please as it has reemerged again. Below is the link from an old thread which gives some history of the account.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?291035-Halifax-Repossesion-Circa-1992-Advice-Needed-Please

 

In a nutshell this has been passed onto what I think are Solicitors and who I feel are going to take me to court on this.

 

 

I have had a few recent email conversations with them,

with me saying that once Halifax (HOBS) satisfy my SAR then I will be more than happy to communicate further.

 

 

They have now gone back to HBOS to refer the matter but expect them to return shortly.

 

Any advice would be great thanks

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that's shoesmiffs for you.

 

 

quite honestly I think you've been cash cowed from day one.

 

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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Hi dx,

Thaks for moving my post.

 

As you can see this has gone on for years! I have not made any payment for many years, so long I can't remember when i last made a payment to be honest. However, at the same time and after requesting information using a SAR on two separate occasions they have never been able to send me anywhere near a comprehensive set of accounts. They just sent me a few prehistoric communications and pre-account payments around the time of the repossession and thats about it, as I recall.

 

No information on what arrangement they made with my ex-partner of that time, how much they sold the house for, any record of subsequent payments leading them to the current standing balance etc......

 

I guess i will have to wait to see what HBOS says and how shoosmiths wants to play this but will keep this post updated. Any advice in the meantime would be appreciated.

 

One other odd thing that I have noted is that this repossession has never been entered onto my credit file and assume never been lodged with the CML, how could this be?

 

Cheers

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