PCN issued-other car parked on markign lines

[kasiah72]

I would be very grateful for any advice.

 

I got a PCN for parking in residents bay without residents permit.

 

First, that's what the sign says:

 

Am I the only one thinking that the arrow shows the location of the meter?

 

Unfortunately, the arrow means that Pay and Display bays are located from this point to the right, which is marked by a white line. The line wasn't visible, as there was a car parked on it:

 

I've sent those pictures with my informal challenge, but the local authority "do not think I have made grounds for cancelling the PCN". They confirm that I have displayed pay&display ticket but my car was parked in a resident parking bay.

 

Do you think that I have chances in winning an appeal?

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Where's the sign to say that to the left it is residents' only?

I would appeal that the contravention did not occur based on inadequate signage.

[sailor sam]

Totally agree with Bernie. The sign says 'Permit Holders OR Pay At Machine' which is i'm assuming is what you did and displayed the ticket. The position of the arrow suggests it is indeed directing you to the machine as there is no end of bay marking on the road which there should be if there are more than one bay with different restrictions. Take this all the way if necessary.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

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[kasiah72]

There was a sign resident permit holders only 5-6 meters to the left. You can check it in Google maps street view - go to 35 Edgeley Road, I was parked where a black convertible BMW is.

[sailor sam]

There was a sign resident permit holders only 5-6 meters to the left. You can check it in Google maps street view - go to 35 Edgeley Road, I was parked where a black convertible BMW is.

 

There's 5 Edgeley Roads comming up on Google, would help if you gave us a clue as to which part of the country we are talking about!

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Jamberson]

It's London.

 

The street view images aren't too clear, but I can't see markings indicating where one section ends and another begins. The "permit only" part should be sectioned off from the shared use part, by a double broken white line running at right angles through the bay, up to the kerb. I don't see one. I think the markings are unclear/non-compliant and you should contest further.

 

Incidentally can you confirm if there is such as marking separating the two bay types?

[sailor sam]

It's London.

 

The street view images aren't too clear, but I can't see markings indicating where one section ends and another begins. The "permit only" part should be sectioned off from the shared use part, by a double broken white line running at right angles through the bay, up to the kerb. I don't see one. I think the markings are unclear/non-compliant and you should contest further.

 

Incidentally can you confirm if there is such as marking separating the two bay types?

 

Thanks Jamberson. In addition to that, the sign that is supposed to be 'between' the bays should have either 2 arrows indicating the 2 different restrictions (one showing the direction of the resident only bay and the other showing the dual purpose bay) or there should be 2 seperate signs, both on the boundary line between the bays. As Jamberson points out, the boundary between the bays should be marked with a double broken white line extending out from the kerb.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[kasiah72]

It's 35 Edgeley Road, London (Lambeth council). The bays are separated by a single white line which is exactly under saab's wheel (see pictures in my first post)

[kasiah72]

the sign that is supposed to be 'between' the bays should have either 2 arrows indicating the 2 different restrictions (one showing the direction of the resident only bay and the other showing the dual purpose bay) or there should be 2 seperate signs, both on the boundary line between the bays.

 

The sign refers to bays from that point to the right (they're both for residents and pay&display). I was parked on the left from the sign as I thought it only idicates the location of the meter. The only thing separating bays for residents only (where I was parked) and those for both reisdents and P&D was a single white line under saab's wheel. Obiously I couldn't see it (utnil traffic warden kindly informed be about its existence).

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

[sailor sam]

 

 

The sign refers to bays from that point to the right (they're both for residents and pay&display). I was parked on the left from the sign as I thought it only idicates the location of the meter. The only thing separating bays for residents only (where I was parked) and those for both reisdents and P&D was a single white line under saab's wheel. Obiously I couldn't see it (utnil traffic warden kindly informed be about its existence).

 

Then I would suggest that the basis of you appeal is that there is insufficient road markings which seperate the resident only bays from the pay and display bays. The sign is non-compliant as it does not indicate that the left bays are for permit holders only. The position of the arrow suggests it is indicating the direction of the P & D machine and not to where non-permit holder parking is allowed. The position of the additional 'Permit Holders Only' sign should be in the centre of the relevant bays to which it apllies OR there should be such a sign in addition to the sign which seperates the P&D bays bearing an arrow showing the direction of the restriction(s).

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[kasiah72]

Thanks for all your replies.

 

I just found out that is is possible to view pics taken bya trafiic warden on Lambeth's website. It's is interesting that neither of his pictures show the sign that wa just behind my car!

 

You can also see road markings better than on pictures taken by me:

 

 

I have also read that Lambeth has the highest rate of appeals won in the capital (78%).

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Any way you can get a decent picture of the road markings to show what is there at the point that the type of bay allegedly changes?

[green_and_mean]

Any way you can get a decent picture of the road markings to show what is there at the point that the type of bay allegedly changes?

 

There is a single transverse line between the bays as can be seen if you look closely under the grey saab convertable in the 3rd photo. However there should be clear signage at the change of restriction which there is not.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

There is a single transverse line between the bays as can be seen if you look closely under the grey saab convertable in the 3rd photo. However there should be clear signage at the change of restriction which there is not.

 

That there may be but does it not depend on the type of bay that is marked out and also should there not be a separate marking for the end of one bay and the beginning of another?

[sailor sam]

That there may be but does it not depend on the type of bay that is marked out and also should there not be a separate marking for the end of one bay and the beginning of another?

 

Yes there should be a double broken line between bays that haver different restrictoins and there should be a sign (or signs) positioned between the bays indicating the relevant restrictions and indicated with arrows.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[green_and_mean]

Yes there should be a double broken line between bays that haver different restrictoins

 

Only if the adjoining bay is sub divided which it doesn't appear to be.

[kasiah72]

Thank you once again for your replies.

 

I have now received a formal Notice of Rejection from Lambeth.

 

This is what they say:

"The above vehicle was observed parked in a place which is posted Residents Permit Holders Only, whilst displaying a pay & display ticket (...)

It is the driver's duty to ensure that the time plates are checked and adhered to prior leaving the vehicle unattended. The time plate is placed adjacent to the bay. (...)

Your vehicle was parked outside no 37 Edgeley Rad, and records show that this location has resident's only parking restrictions. There are clear signs and markings advising you of the restrictions"

 

I went to that place this morning to take some more pictures. I was parked where now black Audi 4x4 is now, just outside no 39 (not 37 as letter says).

 

I am not sure what to write in the details of appeal. Should I focus on ambiguous sign and road markings or more on the saab that was parked on the line separating bays?

[sailor sam]

Thank you once again for your replies.

 

I have now received a formal Notice of Rejection from Lambeth.

 

This is what they say:

"The above vehicle was observed parked in a place which is posted Residents Permit Holders Only, whilst displaying a pay & display ticket (...)

It is the driver's duty to ensure that the time plates are checked and adhered to prior leaving the vehicle unattended. The time plate is placed adjacent to the bay. (...)

Your vehicle was parked outside no 37 Edgeley Rad, and records show that this location has resident's only parking restrictions. There are clear signs and markings advising you of the restrictions"

I went to that place this morning to take some more pictures. I was parked where now black Audi 4x4 is now, just outside no 39 (not 37 as letter says).

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24596[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]24597[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]24598[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]24599[/ATTACH]

 

I am not sure what to write in the details of appeal. Should I focus on ambiguous sign and road markings or more on the saab that was parked on the line separating bays?

 

I dissagree. The sign seperating the bays is not clear at all. There should be an additional sign on the pole with an arrow pointing left stating the restrictions to those bays. There is exactly the same set up outside my house and such signage is in place.

[Michael Browne]

Bladon v Westminster addresses inadequacy of signage:

http://keycases.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/docs/BLAJHL2.pdf

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Personally I would feel inclined to respond to Lambeth and advise them that they haven't adequately addressed the matters raised in your challenge and that in your Appeal to PATAS you will therefore be asking them to treat Lambeth as acting entirely vexatiously.

[kasiah72]

Bladon v Westminster addresses inadequacy of signage: link

Thank you! I found the last case (Mr Johal's) very relevant and interesting.

[kasiah72]

Just to let you know that Notice of Appeal has been sent on Thursday. I included most of your comments in it - lets hope we were all right :)I should get the decision in around 6 weeks - I'll let you know if there is a happy ending to this story.

[kasiah72]

HAPPY END!

 

My appeal has been allowed.

 

Adjudicator's reasons:

"No double transverse lines separating ht eresident holder bays at this location from the adjacent shared use bays. Bay markings do not as required comply with diagram 1032 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

The contravention has not therefore occurred.

The appeal is allowed"

 

Thank you once again for your help and advice.

[sailor sam]

HAPPY END!

 

My appeal has been allowed.

 

Adjudicator's reasons:

"No double transverse lines separating ht eresident holder bays at this location from the adjacent shared use bays. Bay markings do not as required comply with diagram 1032 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

The contravention has not therefore occurred.

The appeal is allowed"

 

Thank you once again for your help and advice.

 

Excelent! It seems my posts (#7, 10 & 15) were spot on then! My little black star (bottom left) awaits!