Bus Lane PCN

[bmu]

Oh dear, started replying, went to look something up, then couldn't find my reply anywhere. So will now try to be brief. I think it's ok to have bus lane warning on same post as Give Way, but they are the wrong way round on Weigall Rd. The one that should be on top is below. But I may have that wrong. I didn't use that argument anyway as was pretty certain I approached via KPR not WR, but had it in reserve, just in case. Not needed, thanks to TfL's 'goodwill' !

 

What I was trying to find when I lost my place was stuff about BUS LANE lettering. I actually think this element may be (uniquely) compliant, though I didn't measure just did a rough calculation from photos. I don't think the gap has to be 1000mm, (600mm, 800mm?), or maybe the gap is 1000mm and lettering has to be 1600mm. I did a lot of delving at the time into the various publications your original appeal referred to, but it's hard to find the relevant bits now that I've suppressed the hideous memory of KPR ticket! I just remember noticing that gap and lettering were not required to be same size, and deciding not to use that particular issue in my reps. Not that any appeal seems to falter based on that. There is just so much else wrong with the lane, the road markings, the signage, even the orientation of such signs as there are. And now even the single wrongly placed deflection arrow is faded and worn, as I pointed out in my reps.

Would be happy to anonymise and post my reps if potentially helpful to others, but not sure of how to do it. Also think your model seems to be working pretty well ! Thank you again, I would have got nowhere, probably not even tried, without all the material you provided.

[sawiak911]

Hi,

 

Help please.

 

I had gotten caught in the bus lane at 11pm on the 25th August. I appealed before finding this forum. I have had my appeal rejected and just wonder what you think I should do. The only things that I could think of to appeal about was the poor road conditions due to rain and not noticing the signs, along with not expecting my car to go through the narrow bollards in the middle of the road.

 

If I appealed to the adjudicator with all the points noted hear is there a chance that I could get the ticket quashed or have I lost now because I didn't raise the points at my initial reps?

[green_and_mean]

Start your own topic/thread and give more details such as location etc

[sawiak911]

Hi,

 

Not sure how to post a new thread. I received the bus lane ticket on the famous Kidbrooke park road where everyone else gets caught...on the 80 yard slot which they define as a bus lane. It was 11:20pm on 25 of August 2010. I never noticed it was a bus lane until it was too late as with most other people and of course the bollard prevents you from moving out of the lane.

[bmu]

My feeling is that you should go to the formal appeal stage, using all the arguments that others have used about the inadequacy and unlawfulness of the signage and road markings. I can't see why they feel like extending their goodwill to me and not to you, except because they didn't want the arguments I put forward tested at appeal, and perhaps thought that it might be easier to defend their action in issuing you with the PCN.

But obviously the decision is up to you, based on your circumstances. If you can’t afford to risk the additional £60 on top of the £60 it will cost if you cave in now, or if you haven’t got the time or stomach for a fight, then just pay and have done with it. But I think you would have a good chance of winning at appeal. Or that TfL would actually do what they seem to have done with others, and not fight the case. I don’t know whether your case would be damaged by not having raised the points at informal appeal, I don’t see why it should be. I don't think there here is any obligation to submit informal reps before appealing, so I see no reason why you should be constrained by the arguments you presented at that stage. People like Bernie will probably be able to give better advice on that, and you might want to wait for a response from him before making your decision. But advice on the forum to others has been not to roll over, and that seems sound advice in relation to PCNs for this bus lane. Have a good read of all the previous posts.

[bmu]

Oh and not just the road markings and signage, the stuff about the camera images too, and other relevant arguments that others have used.

[sawiak911]

Thanks bmu...I will most certainly have a look through the thread picking up the other details too....I have also contacted my MP about the situation because clearly this bus lane is to grab revenue and to rob us. The response from the informal reps is incorrect anyway as it details only one point that I made and not them all.

 

They have made mistakes in the letter responding to my appeal also. The camera photos don't show all of the details as listed in previous posts. It doesn't state the day of the week lists the date and time and a six digit number but thats all.

 

In the response they haven't recognised that I appealed within the 14 days so I should be offered the chance to pay the reduced fee which they have not done.

 

I am going to fight them on it.

[bmu]

Good!

[bob76]

A big thank you to Bernie the Bolt and all other kind users. I appealed via email about my bus penalty (penalty issued on 15/09/10), borrowing heavily from Bernie's original appeal. Received the "gesture of goodwill" reply today by TfL, cancelling the penalty notice.

 

I am now going to write to my MP, asking him to write to TfL for scrapping this pointless 'revenue generation' bus lane.

 

Again, many thanks.

[Synthshadow]

Hi all,

 

Just a quick update - or lack there of so far, as I sent my e-mail appeal on the 20th when I wrote on here and to date I haven't received a single reply, be it via e-mail or post, is that right? Can they leave me dangling so to speak for a certan amount of time? Or is this just normal procedure...

 

I have the fizzy wine on chill just in case but frightened to crack it open just in case they wallop me the next day!

[sawiak911]

Hi there,

 

They are slow at replying if they reply at all and they may send you the next letter demanding payment and then suggest the email was not received. They did that to me so I had to fax the email to them. The administration is sloppy and I can only think they do this to discourage you appealing. If I was you I would call them and ask them to confirm receipt of your email.

[sawiak911]

I also had my MP write a letter to the Major of London about the issues surrounding this.

[Synthshadow]

Hi Sawiak911,

 

I took your advice and called them uop, spoke to a guy (damn realisation hit that I should have got his name...) anyway I asked about whether they'd received my appeal, of which after he took my name and address, confirmed that yes they had "received 1...2...3...4 pages worth of it"

 

His tone of exasperation when counting the pages caused me to smile - additionally he said it's all on hold for the time being. rather ominous but will take my victories where I can get them, no matter how small or temporary. Fingers crossed!

[sawiak911]

Hi,

 

I am still awaiting the full result of my appeal because initially they rejected my appeal but then I pointed out that they hadn't answered all of my points nor did they include that I could still pay the reduced fee. So I am waiting for their final appeal before I decide to take it to the Adjudicator....fingers crossed for us both.

[bmu]

I had an automated acknowledgement on the day I sent my email. The 'goodwill' letter took about another three weeks. Wonder why it's 'all on hold'. Have they seen the error of their ways? Probably not. But we can hope. Good luck to both of you, I rather doubt you'll (need/be able to) get as far as the adjudicator, I shall watch this space.

[Bristolhomer]

Looks like I'm the latest person to have been fleeced by this [problem] and be forced to waste my time jumping through these ridiculous hoops.

 

FYI: just done a Google search and according to this map here, there is only one bus that uses this route at all: (NOTE THIS WEBSITE WON'T LET ME POST LINKS, BUT THE BUS IS THE 178 ROUTE)

 

And according to this timetable, the time I was caught (8.53pm on a Sunday night), they were flying around at a frequency of every 20 minutes (though in fairness this does rocket up to every 15 minutes during 'peak' times!): (AGAIN, I CAN'T POST THE LINK)

 

Also, for those saying that this would be more obvious if you knew the area etc, in fairness, although I certainly don't make a point of driving through Kidbrooke, I have probably driven up that road and through that junction maybe five or so times before, and even then it wasn't at all obvious to me what I'd done wrong (I still don't recall doing it) until I received the letter, turned it over and saw the pics on the reverse. The fine really is completely pointless. What would anyone stand to gain from driving through the left as opposed to the right?! It's not like deliverately driving through a red light or a similar such offence.

 

Thanks for the info - wish me luck!

[starfarer]

I'm too preparing appeal letter to one of my colleague. Just need to get the latest site pictures to see whether the signs are still placed as was before.

[Bristolhomer]

I'll nip past on my way home from work tonight and will let you know tomorrow...

[Bristolhomer]

Starfarer, I went down there last night to get some pics. I only checked fully from the direction coming into London. There are certainly no warnings on the approach that a bus lane is coming. The only sign remotely related says 'Width Limit 7.0 100 yards ahead'.

 

Then there are just the 'except buses' signs literally as you drive through the junction. Also, unlike the previous pics posted, there no longer appear to be any signs warning you that there's a camera (is the law like speed cameras where they have to at least warn you that there's a camera present?).

 

If you're coming from the other direction, you're laughing. I didn't check the approach, but at the junction, there's only one 'except buses' sign and it's facing 90 degrees in the wrong direction!

 

Also, approaching it again in the rain and dark, it's really easy to see how you could drive through it. The arrow in the road and the bus lane aren't particularly visible at all unless you really look for them!

[starfarer]

much appreciate your help B. Anyway the guy went down there and took some pics himself. I'll upload later here so that others can use it too.

[starfarer]

[starfarer]

notice the sign for Bus Lane on side road. Missing in 2008 when Bernie posted.

Well I think this is close to 30-40M.

Edited December 16, 2010 by starfarer

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

notice the sign for Bus Lane on side road. Missing in 2008 when Bernie posted.

 

Actually it was there, there are just other issues around that sign which I would have brought up had TFL sought to argue the issues.

[starfarer]

Response was quick and fast. "Gesture of Goodwill" and tfl has agreed to cancel the PCN

 

Edit: Thanks for Bernie and londonmotorist101 for the letter template which was almost 99.9% copied. On last point following were added:

 

On my research, overwhelmingly almost all previous PCN's on exact same location and contravention were dismissed on the same grounds raised above dating since 2008. Also BBC published an article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7534210.stm with the nomination of this particular road (kidbrooke road SE3) under title for the 10 most confusing roads. Despite this, No visible actions were taken to rectify the problem ie adequate signs for restrictions, almost for 2 years.

Edited December 24, 2010 by starfarer

[lamma]

looks like they depend on people giving up and are issuing in full knowledge that it is wrong for them to do so.