Bus Lane PCN

[andrew1]

Well I only mentioned it because it's just a mile or so from the one in question, but you're right, compare notes!

[spikeyman0]

Hi,

 

I also got a ticket for this bus lane, I copied the template too to appeal, so thanks for that. the Interesting thing I noted whilst looking at the street on google maps streetview, is that the reason for these areas are for bus stops. I'm not sure if there is one there now, but streetview shows the but stop removed. therefore making the bus lane pointless. there is just a crap sign when turning left from Weigall road, and clearly not enough notice and a terrible example of telling you where the bus lane actually is when you get onto Kidbrook road.

 

Terrible Bus lane and a complete con.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I've posted some (brief) thoughts and pictures on the Blackheath Village Bus Lane on this thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?290885-Blackheath-Village-Bus-Lane

[Bristolhomer]

Hi,

 

Just wanted to say thanks to all on here. Due to a combination of your insight/help and my incredibly pedantic nature (I knew it would come in handy one day!) I have had my appeal accepted.

 

If it helps anyone, I added a caveat to the FOI request asking, of all the people who appealed officially, how many had actually ever lost and been charged the £120 (the logic being that if they have to admit to me that they never pursue these cases, they may as well let me off now!). Can't say whether it helped or not, but people want to add this clause for themselves in future.

 

Many thanks for all your help - hopefully I won't be back on too soon (I'm starting to understand what living - and driving - in London is all about!).

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Bristolhomer. Delighted to hear it. Well done!

[HYMN AND MI]

Seconded and many congratulations. Any chance of us knowing their exact reasons for the cancellation, please?

[mft]

Hi All

 

Also received a PCN. Just looking back at one of Bernie Bolt's initial posts and the letter from TFL has "photographic evidence" on the back of the letter. Did everyone else have this? There isn't on my letter. Thinking if I should request the photo evidence first or appeal straight away?

 

Thanks

 

Jen

[HYMN AND MI]

Yes. Request the evidence and a time to view the video, which must show valid signs being present at the time/date of alleged contravention. Do all that, then put in challenge.

[The Kidbrooke Kid]

Greetings,

 

I got caught by this infamous camera in the quiet time between Christmas and New Year. Using information from this thread I contested the PCN on various grounds. In the response from TfL I had several standard paragraphs about the alleged offence, the reasons for bus lanes, blah, blah blah. Then I was advised that the PCN was cancelled as a gesture of goodwill. They did not answer any of my points so perhaps there were too many grounds to defend a formal appeal.

 

Grateful thanks to Bernie_the_Bolt, Londonmotorist101and all other contributors to this thread. I was using what was written here when I noticed the detailed reply to bristolhomer so I changed tack slightly. Here are a few observations:

 

Don't use the developed standard format as it seems someone at TfLhas had time to write a comprehensive reply, but this gives the opportunity to raise more questions as I will describe here and in a later post.

 

The first four bullet points in Londonmotorist101's letter are valid arguments. I added an observation that 'According to the Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 5 Figure 17. 1010 an arc is used to signify the continuation of a with-flow of Bus Lane. This differentiates it from (i.e. avoids confusion with) the start of a with-flow Bus Lane. '

 

In the BBC London news item about confusing road signs 'Transport for London are reported to be keen to understand where we are issuing PCNs (Penalty Charge Notices) and keen to understand if the reason why we are issuing high numbers of PCNs is because individual drivers are confused.' So this begs the question what have TfL done to investigate such confusion at this site. Any non compliance to the TSM as in the previous points could surely be grounds for confusion.

[NB The system won't allow me to give the link but google "BBC London confusing road signs"]

 

In a similar thread to this one Johnny Rocker was told in Oct 2008 'The reason Transport for London are not contesting your appeal case is due to KIDBROOKE PARK ROAD SE3 being an unenforceable location. So what action have TfL taken to make this bus lane enforcable?

[Again, I can't give the link but google "Johhny Rocker Kidbrooke Park Bus Lane"]

So if TfL have judged it unenforcable and it is recognised a confusing why has best practice not been implemented since the introduction of the Bus Lanes in 2004?

Cheers

 

KK

Edited February 24, 2011 by The Kidbrooke Kid

[Esinem]

Isn't there something about having to observe you for 20 metres? I doubt that lane is that long. Anyway, I reckon you have them on the signs.

[HYMN AND MI]

Depends on circumstances. I have seen this on a website.

Edited February 24, 2011 by HYMN AND MI

[green_and_mean]

Isn't there something about having to observe you for 20 metres?

 

No you can be stationary and still get a PCN.

[Shropshirelad]

Wanted to say a big thankyou to all who have posted above and helped save me £60. I passed through this bus lane on the 6th of March and shortly afterwards got my PCN through the post . Thankfully I googled "Kidbrooke Park Road bus lane" and was directed to this site. Sent of my informal appeal last monday (largely plagiarised from the examples above) and yesterday got the "gesture of goodwill" letter.8-)

 

In addition to the standard letter I made a couple of additions firstly identifying, what I felt were, mitigating circumstances (see below) and secondly in the freedom of information request asking for the proportion of the official appeals made against pcn's issued for this location that were successful.

 

"In terms of mitigating circumstances I would say that this was the first time I have driven on this stretch of road and that as such it was completely new to me. As can be seen from the video stills you have supplied there were no cars ahead of me and therefore no flow of traffic to follow. Your failure to provide adequate signage and warning of the forthcoming bus lane as per the guidance set out in the Traffic Signs Manual (Chapter 3, Section 15.9 & Chapter 5 paragraph 17.7, see bullets 2 & 3 above) meant that by the time I realised that I was in the bus lane, to make a sudden adjustment to my trajectory could, in my opinion, have been hazardous to both myself and other road users. On balance I felt the safest option was to continue the short distance on the bus lane."

 

Whether or not this helped I have no idea but may be useful to others if the circumstnces apply.

 

Thanks again.

[HYMN AND MI]

Nice one. Congratulations.

[mft]

Hey all -

 

My Dad had a PCN at Kidbrooke Road. I called up TfL on his behalf and was speaking to one of the advisors who was very helpful on the phone.

We were chatting and I had explained that it my Dad had never been there before and that this was his first PCN, and that he was infact on his way to visit a sick relative. The advisor pretty much told me off the record to put that in writing to Tfl and he was certain that the PCN would get cancelled. This I did, and three weeks later we had a letter confirming this was cancelled, explaining this was a 'one-off'.

[Goodcitizens]

Has anyone experienced being caught by a CCTV camera RNC/024 on Kidbrooke Park Road?

Edited July 19, 2011 by Goodcitizens

[kimbo12]

I received a PCN for entering the bus lane on Kidbrooke Park Road in August. I contested this claim using a combination of previously posted letters with a few extra FOI requests thrown in for good measure (all in all the appeal letter ran to about 2.5 pages!). The response I received was that 'as a gesture of goodwill and because this is the first representation you have made to TfL...I have decided to cancel the penalty charge. It must be understood that this does not form an acceptance of your representation.' So it seems that as long as it's your first time contesting a PCN with TfL then they are willing to cancel... Not sure how we stand on the legal issues though because I did not receive much of a reply to those put forward.

[HYMN AND MI]

Not quite sure I agree with your kind interpretation of their actions! The famous phrase is a euphemism for we do not like your arguments and wish to back down most ungracefully! I am sure there are plenty of motorists who have not been let off their first PCN by this authority. Well done, however.

[umairaziz12]

Hi Guys,

 

Just wanted to say a big thank you to everyone who has posted in this thread, using the points posted I was able to appeal and get my PCN cancelled which I received for driving into the infamous Kidbrooke Park Road Bus Lane on 15th of september, and received a letter in the post today with the same old 'gesture of goodwill and because this is the first representation you have made to TFL' letter.

 

Once again, thank you and keep up the good work !

[HYMN AND MI]

Nice one. Well done and many congratulations.

[davidrr]

Hi all,

 

Just received a letter from Stella at TfL cancelling my PCN as a gesture of goodwill.

 

She included pics showing the lane's signage in response to my letter. However, no picture or mention of any sign 30m ahead of the lane. Therefore surely the lane still not properly signed.

 

As with others I used the above letters, but tweaked them a bit to try and avoid any standard response from TfL (also removed a few points that I think are no longer relevant).

 

Finally added in an extra paras and a few extra FOI requests (based on various ideas/responses above):

 

Further I would like to add that in terms of mitigating circumstances this was the first time I have driven on this stretch of road and that as such it was completely new to me. As can be seen from the video stills you have supplied there were no cars ahead of me and therefore no flow of traffic to follow. Your failure to provide adequate signage and warning of the forthcoming bus lane as per the guidance set out in the Traffic Signs Manual means that by the time a person realised they were in the bus lane to make a sudden adjustment to their direction would have been dangerous and risked crashing into the bollards that stop a car that's made a mistake from exciting the lane. Additionally having lived and driven in London all my life this is the first time I have received or appealed a PCN for driving in a bus lane.

 

Also the BBC published an article [LINK TO BBC SITE] with the nomination of this particular road (kidbrooke road SE3) under title for the 10 most confusing roads. Despite this, no significant actions have been taken to rectify the problem i.e. adequate signs for restrictions and a redesign of the bus lane for over 3 years.

In the BBC London news item about confusing road signs 'Transport for London are reported to be keen to understand where we are issuing PCNs (Penalty Charge Notices) and keen to understand if the reason why we are issuing high numbers of PCNs is because individual drivers are confused.' Therefore what has TfL done to investigate such confusion at this site? Any non compliance to the TSM as in the previous points could surely be grounds for confusion.

So if TfL has recognised it is confusing why has no significant change been implemented since the introduction of the Bus Lanes in 2004?

Should these representations be rejected then please treat this as a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 for the following documents:

 

a) A copy of the bus lane order or regulation giving effect to this Bus Lane.

 

b) A copy of the Safety Audit for this road layout.

 

c) A copy of the engineer’s scale diagrams showing the layout of this Bus Lane, the road markings and the signage (including warnings of camera enforcement).

 

d) Copies of any approvals of deviations of signage from TSRGD including the non-compliant start line.

 

e) Details of maintenance visits verifying existence and condition of the signs carried out this year.

 

f) Images of my car with it number plate visible in the bus lane.

 

g) The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location.

 

h) The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location and cancelled by you following informal challenges.

 

i)The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location and cancelled by you following formal appeal to you.

j) Of those people who appealed officially, how many have ever lost and been charged the £120

 

k) The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location and cancelled following appeal to a PATAS adjudicator.

 

l) The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location and not pursued by you for any other reason.

 

m) The average monthly penalty revenue raised by TFL in respect of this location (north and south-bound).

 

n) The total penalty revenue raised by TFL at this location since 31-07-2008 when this road has been reported by BBC to be up for review.

 

o) Number of complaints received with respect to this location from Motorists, both formal and informal and all records of action taken if any.

 

p) Details of any reviews of the road layout and signage following the BBC’s report in 2008 and action taken out following these.

Good luck anyone else who gets caught and maybe TfL will eventually change this confusing, and potentially dangerous, buslane.

 

David

[Keith_S]

Hi Everyone,

Help PLEASE. I have just received (date of notice 30th Nov 11) the same notice as everyone else "being in a bus lane in Kidbrooke Park Road at 07.36 "

I live in Kent and was trying to get into East Dulwich just following the Sat Nav going a route I have never used before.Just to let you know I never drive in bus lanes or park illegally on purpose .

The thing is they have not supplied the photos on the back of the Notice and I do not recall the incident. I don't have to go back that way again so am unable to get pictures for my defence. It would cost £18 in petrol just to do the round trip ! Does anybody have a recent appeal that was successful that I could copy or use a template? Any help would be very gratefully received as the £130 they are demanding is going to ruin our Christmas.

Thanks in advance,

Keith

[beno1440]

[quote=Keith_S;3639003

The thing is they have not supplied the photos on the back of the Notice and I do not recall the incident. I don't have to go back that way again so am unable to get pictures for my defence. It would cost £18 in petrol just to do the round trip ! Does anybody have a recent appeal that was successful that I could copy or use a template?

 

They didn't include ANY photos??? I believe that makes the PCN invalid. They are explicitly required to issue you with all the relevant evidence they have, alongside the PCN, so that you can make a proper appeal should you wish to do so. They must also provide you with details of how to obtain any further evidence they hold which they can't send with it (eg CCTV footage). Furthermore, as mentioned in some of the appeals written above in this thread, the evidence is required to show you exactly where and when this PCN was issued and for what reason, otherwise they could simply pick a number plate out of a hat and send them a Penalty Charge without any grounds whatsoever.

 

I would use this as the first point of any appeal (both informal and if hey refuse that the formal appeal too), followed by something similar to the points raised earlier in the thread, FOI requests etc. Write professionally and clearly, and use as much of the information from the earlier letters as possible.

 

On a final note: Hey all, this is my first post in the forums since I have a bus lane PCN appeal to make myself.

[HYMN AND MI]

The PCN does not require it to contain the fotos. You must ask for their evidence (video), Traffic Management Order (by pdf and immediately) and still fotos. The video must show the signage in place on the day of the alleged contravention and your vehicle passing such.

[Keith_S]

Hi again,

on closer inspection it was an Enforcement Notice. I phoned them and they said I had already been sent a PCN - I did not receive one.

They offered to extend the discounted payment period for a further 10 days.

They directed me to a website to view 3 still CCTV images of me. These show me following a large van and swerving INTO the bus lane at quite a late stage. It is a confusing road layout and I do not know or recall why I moved like that. Maybe I thought I was about to drive into oncoming traffic or there was an oncoming emergency vehicle - I just don't know.

Their photos do not show any ADVANCE warning signs - just the one at the START of the bus lane.

I noticed on page 5 of this thread that Bristolhomer got a reply from the "standard template letter" addressing all the issues raised and dismissing them and also replying to his freedom of information requests. Does anyone think it is still worth sending the "template letter" with FOI requests?

I am tempted to just pay the 50% discounted fine just to be rid of it even though I think it is a really bad road layout (possibly there only to raise cash).

Any advice or updated "template letter" with just the issues they have not addressed and photos greatly received.

All the best,

Keith