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N244 Form - Voiding Bill of Sale


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Hi,

 

It appears that I have a Bill of Sale that was been incorrectly executed. The chap who signed my credit agreement also signed as a witness.

 

I am currently looking at form N244, Im unsure of 'What level of Judge is needed' and 'Who should be served with this application' boxes.

 

Could anybody help me out

Edited by mhenry9885
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In my humble opinion, I wouldn't waste your time nor money.

 

Have a look at a posting that I raised back last September on the very point of attestation, same signature on both the Bill of Sale and affidavit.

 

No one on the CAG was able to offer a legal insight on this point that you have raised once again.

 

The bottom line is if the court has registered the Bill of Sale at the high Court, I believe, it is generally difficult to get a judge to make the BOS void if both parties entered in to the agreement freely.

 

It possibly differs for 3rd party victims that are able to contest a BOS that was not directly entered in to but for direct borrowers like yourself? I am not aware of a legal precedent that has made a BOS void on the same witness point alone.

 

Click on link below to read my original posting on the witness point that you raise in your posting above.

 

Hope it clarifies why I have the view I have on making void a BOS on the same witness point and why your "incorrectly executed" point may not necessarily be enough to make your BOS void? http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?278273-Attestation-same-signature-on-BOS-Affidavit-amp-CCA-Credible-witness-Party-thereto&p=3150786&highlight=#post3150786

 

Hip_Hop

 

Hi,

 

It appears that I have a Bill of Sale that was been incorrectly executed. The chap who signed my credit agreement also signed as a witness.

 

I am currently looking at form N244, Im unsure of 'What level of Judge is needed' and 'Who should be served with this application' boxes.

 

Could anybody help me out

Edited by Hip_Hop
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Just got my copy of the the bill of sale from the finance company.

 

I had presumed that the salesman had signed as a witness as he was the only one there at the time. Turns out the business manager witnessed me signing it and she wasn't even at work on the day.

 

Lying cheating scumbags.

 

Anyway I have uploaded a copy and would be grateful if somebody could give me their opinion over the validity of it, it looks very different from schedule in the 1882 Amendment.

 

http://s725.photobucket.com/albums/ww260/mhenry9885/

 

They didn't send me the best copy so I have typed it out too.

 

 

 

 

This Bill of Sale made the

 

 

12th day of October 2010

 

 

Between (me)

 

 

(hereinafter called “the grantor”) of the one part and

 

 

****** Finance Company LTD (“the grantee”) of the other part.

 

 

Witnesseth that in consideration of the sum of (BLANK) (hereinafter called “the principal sum”) now advanced to the Grantor by the Grantee (receipt whereof the grantor hereby acknowledges) the Grantor doth hereby assign unto the Grantee and ITS assigns the motor vehicle (hereinafter referred to as “the vehicle”) specifically described in the Schedule hereto and being (or shortly to be) at

 

 

My Address

 

 

(hereinafter referred to as “the authorised garage address” which expression where the context so admits shall include any substituted address authorised by the Grantee as hereinafter provided) by way of security for the payment of the principal sum together with interest thereon at the rate of 18 per centum per annum.

 

 

1 The Grantor doth further agree and declare that he/she will duly pay to the Grantee the principal sum together with interest as aforesaid by one instalment of £TOO MUCH BLOODY MONEY one month from the date hereof to be followed by 34 payments of £TOO MUCH BLOODY MONEY on the same day of each successive month with a final payment of £OUCH one month later. Payments of less than the amount due will be appropriated first to interest and then to the principal. If default be made in any payment when it becomes due the balance of the principal sum then remaining unpaid together with interest then accrued shall at once become payable together with interset on the balance of the principal at the specified rate from the date the balance shall have become due until payment.

 

 

Then some rubbish about comprehensive insurance.

 

 

THE SCHEDULE ABOVE REFERRED TO

 

 

Details of the car

 

 

In Witness whereof the grantor has executed this document as a deed the day and year first above written.

 

 

SIGNED AS A DEED and delivered.

 

 

By the said:- ME

in the presence of: BUSINESS MANAGER WHO WASN'T EVEN THERE!!!

Address - Same address as finance company.

 

 

 

Looks a bit dodgy to me. Interestingly though, they didn't give me the court reference number which I asked for.

Edited by mhenry9885
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Hi,

Read as much as you can on Bills of Sales on the CAG.

 

I have read your Bill Of Sale and in the first instance you need to establish whether the BOS has been registered. As the copy you have posted up is an unsealed, unregistered copy as it doesn't have the high court seals to show that it has been registered.

 

Neither do you appear to be in receipt of the sworn affidavit that is usually attached to the BOS and lodged with the High Court. Both of which can be found at the High Court.

It isn't unusual for the loan company to send unregistered copies to borrowers but you should establish what the true registered copy is.

 

I note that you were asking on another thread about who to pay. If you are personally visiting, as I did, they are very helpful. They charged me last September £10 for two copies and I was able to obtain the copies within half an hour. That's right, Told them I needed it as the car was being auctioned imminently and they went down to find it.

I am sure youi have read the many threads about Bills Of Sales but just in case you haven't, I would check Applecart's posting. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?283362-Have-you-signed-a-Bill-of-Sale-Take-These-Steps-to-find-out-if-Your-Bill-of-Sale-is-Registered

You might also benefit from my earlier postings as they highlight the issues I faced turning up at the HCJ and seeing a Masters in order to get a BOS overturned because it was registered outside of the 7 days as outlined in the act and details the short thrift I was given too by the Master.

 

In any event, good luck, keep us posted with your progress at the HCJ

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I did post an update on my original post but it has disappeared.......

 

Update was - I have an email from the so called witness from the week before saying that she wouldn't be there and to see the salesman to go through the paperwork, yet she still signs as a witness. Further to this by brother came with me to collect the car so I have my own witness statement to present to the court in addition to the email.

 

I called the court yesterday and the nice lady gave me my reference number for the BOS so I only had to pay £5 to get a copy of it. It's on the way.

 

She said the bill of sale was registered 2 days after me signing.

 

Should the witness sign and put their own personal address? The address she put was c/o the finance company/dealership

 

Also the copy they sent me had a blank amount of money as the amount advanced. I think this adds to the ammunition

 

Just got to wait for the registered copy to come, then I can go get them :-)

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I called the court yesterday and the nice lady gave me my reference number for the BOS so I only had to pay £5 to get a copy of it. It's on the way.

She said the bill of sale was registered 2 days after me signing.

IMHO I believe that you may be clutching at straws, if you are relying on a registered BOS being made void for the reasons given.

 

A judge would be most hesitant to make a registered BOS void , as the BOS is the security for the lender to advance to the borrower. Check out on the forum where any BOS has been made void by a judge on a registered BOS between a (direct) Borrower and Lender and you will find..........NONE.

 

Should the witness sign and put their own personal address? The address she put was c/o the finance company/dealership

 

Also the copy they sent me had a blank amount of money as the amount advanced. I think this adds to the ammunition

 

Just got to wait for the registered copy to come, then I can go get them :-)

Wait and see, but I don't think you will "get them" on that.

 

IMHO I'm sure you will find that the registered copy has the amount advanced filled in. Also, In Encyclopaedia of the laws of England Page 142 it states

 

"There is nothing in the act that prevents an agent of the grantee being an attesting witness [Pearce vs Brookes 1895], 2 Q. B. 451)."

 

I know you feel hard done by and want to get one back on them but I seriously suggest that you read the CAG fully on Bills of Sales, attestations etc that I have given you links to previously, as the alternative will be that you will waste your time and money.

 

If it is your intention to convince a judge that the BOS should be made void just on on the basis of the above then I wish you the best of luck.

 

Remember a judge will only overturn any legal instrument, no matter how archaic BOS's are seen to be, on legal grounds alone.

 

He will neither allow nor have the patience to hear a story of how a witness signature to a legal contract that you entered in to freely, should now be overturned, on a claim that she emailed a week before that, she may not attend???

 

All the judge will seek to clarify is. Did you enter freely into this agreement?

 

Were you forced to accept their money?

 

Did you use the loan to secure the car?...etc etc..

 

Of course you did....So simply wishing a judge to grant that the loan is made unsecured on the basis that the Bill of Sale signed by you should be made void because a witness signature from an agent of the loan company, was witnessed by your brother, as not being there....With no affidavit from another member of staff that proves she was not present?......Weak legal argument? See what I mean?

 

As usual, Just my penny's worth given for clarity, with the usual caveats.

 

Hip_Hop

Edited by Hip_Hop
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Let me just explain why i'm not happy with them, forgetting the bill of sale stuff for the minute.

 

I bought a car from them (it is a dealer with the finance company on same premises but both are owned by the same guy), within the first two weeks it developed many faults and was advertised with feature that it didn't have. They looked into repairing it but said it would be too expensive and instead would you like another years free warranty.... no thanks. They wouldn't let me return it, in their words 'I should have checked the vehicle over first.' The only option they gave me was to sign another loan agreement and bill of sale for another car or be stuck with the broken one.

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I see. So if I read your last posting above and just consider your non BOS points. You are a frustrated purchaser of a vehicle that developed faults that the seller/loan company was unable to fix to your satisfaction. Furthermore, nor were you of the opinion that you were offered an acceptable remedy nor compensation for these faults or the fact that you were sold a vehicle that didn't have all the refinements that were originally advertised?

 

Nevertheless, you obviously don't feel you had a strong enough case on the above to take the seller to task for breach of contract, so, you decided ,with respect, to post your Bill of Sale point for cathartic reasons?

 

O.K I get it.

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Cathartic reasons? not quite.

 

I am only contesting the bill of sale because I noticed that the witness lied.... It's the right thing to do, even if i'm unsuccessful can't say I didn't go down without a fight.

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Cathartic reasons? not quite.

 

I am only contesting the bill of sale because I noticed that the witness lied.... It's the right thing to do, even if i'm unsuccessful can't say I didn't go down without a fight.

You might think "it's the right thing to do" but IMHO it may not be the bright thing to do.

 

I am just pointing out the obvious. Unless you are fee exempt, asking the court to make your BOS void by claiming that the witness was not the witness, when materially you took full advantage of the loan being offered to you, stands little chance IMHO.

 

I believe, it wouldn't take much effort for the other side to have your claim simply struck out on the basis that it had little prospect of success.

 

On the other hand, if it's simply a fight that you are after and you have the time, capacity to represent yourself and an initial spare circa £120 in fees to lose, (if you are not fee exempt), than yeah, go for it.

 

Remember the law is not about fairness and justice it's about proving the case.

 

Good luck

Edited by Hip_Hop
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i think most of the contracts are signed by the car salesman .as to rendering it void...im not sure on that because it seems so common....the actual bill of sale...( court stamp ) is to ensure the seizure of the goods if you fail to pay...my bill is stamped the day before i signed for the actual car which was in fact a sunday ,,,but i bought it on mon....i sent off to court for copy...got it back but couldnt see it properly..so im going to write back to see if it legal to stamp on a sunday .but ive been told if it got official court stamp thats it..

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