Going through a tram road... Fined... TWICE!!!

[Shazy777]

Hey people,

 

Hope someone can really help me or give me some advice about this issue. About a month ago in Nottingham, I accidentally drove onto a tram route and after quickly realising did a 3 point turn and returned back out of it. Later on that week I got a fine from Nottingham City Council stating that I had been caught on an ANPR camera passing through a designated Tram Gate.

 

I put my hands up and agreed that it was my fault and agreed that I would pay the fine. However to my surprise another fine was sent out but this time on the same day for my car caught on the ANPR camera 2 minutes later. Thats when I realised that the camera caught me on the way in and on the way out.

 

I appealed against the second fine to say that I felt I was being penalized for correcting my mistake as I turned around when I realised I had entered a tram route. After that I assumed that was the end of that and common sense should prevail. I received a letter today from Nottingham city council telling me that the appeal had been rejected with the comments "I have noted your comments abd would advise that by turning around and re entering the tram gateway, a second contravention occured and a second penalty charge was correctly served and remains payable".

 

After reading that letter, I am absolutely fuming and it feels like daylight robbery Someone please help me or get me some advice please!!

 

Thanks in advance!

[silverfox1961]

just a bump onto todays pages

[diskmandave]

I have noted your comments and would advise that by turning around and re entering the tram gateway

But you didn't re-enter the tram gateway you turned around and exited.

 

One for the experts I think..

[sailor sam]

We would need more info and pics ect. Can the OP tell us the exact location so we can check it out on street view?

 

Please Note

 

 

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[Shazy777]

Thanks for the reply people. Will scan and post the images tonight. They have also sent me a map of the road and where the tram gateway is which may be helpful as well

[green_and_mean]

I don't think Councils outside London can issue moving traffic PCNs for contravening road signs, what is the contravention as stated on the PCN.

[Cooperm4n]

Hi Shazzy777

I was wondering how your appeal against the second PCN panned out.

I am have appealed over two contraventions...but I could quite easily had four, since like you I turned around and went back through the tram gate. Notts CC claim that they have a poilcy to avoid multiple PCNs being issued in quick succession. I have asked for a copy of this policy, without success.

Cooperm4n

[Al27]

What are the two contraventions? tell us word for word.

 

Even better, scan in your letters.

[tiredTraveller]

I grew up in Nottingham, and I'm having a really hard time figuring out how you did that to be honest. The only bits I can think of are the bridge towards the final stop near the capital one building, or the parts where the tram runs along railway track which are really clearly not road. I could have forgotten something though. Can you tell us whereabouts this happened?

[Cooperm4n]

Hi Al27

I could have had four contraventions since I took some relatives along Goldsmith Street, from Peel Street, and back again.

I have submitted a letter of representation and received a notice of rejection.

I am now awaiting an appeal date...currently running around November...so forgive me if I don't post the letters (see Pepipoo below)

I think my chances are 50:50 at the moment, but I have been trying to get a copy of any policy.

I have had help from Pepipoo, where there is much debate.

I've lived in Nottingham all my life too, tiredTraveller, and had no idea that there was a tramgate on Goldmine (sic) Street.

Be warned, there is now an enforcement camera on Fletcher Gate...do not proceed into Carlton Street for George Street...you must turn right into Warser Gate...if you must, go left into Victoria Street, do a U turn and then go into Carlton Street, etc... This is currently a loop-hole, but I won't be exploiting it!

Other ANPR cameras are planned for Milton Street, Parliament Street, Friar Lane...etc

Cooperm4n

[sailor sam]

Just taken a look on street view. There is a tram stop half way along Goldsmith which has blue 'tram only' signs at each end. i'm assuming that it was there you drove through. The only thing I can see is that the road markings arn't that great and the signs themselves seem to be positioned away from the kerb. However, going on the Midland Metro system (Wolverhampton to Birmingham) which travels along sections of roads at the Wolverhampton end, the 'tram only' sections are enforced for fairly obvious reasons really. There are local TO's in place to enforce these so I would guess the same applies to Nottingham. if that is the case, I can't see you appealing successfully to be honest.

[Cooperm4n]

Hi Sailor Sam

Fair comment...but therein lies the issue. No camera enforcement warnings signs, poor road markings, poorly spaced road signs, (un)intended restrictions for cyclists, wholesale inconsistencies in the use of road signs at other sites in Nottingham, inconsistent application of multiple PCNs...which is why I posted. There are so many irregularities with the tram gate, it is now a matter of principle. The Sheriff has a nice cash cow.

Wish me luck

Cooperm4n

[sailor sam]

What is the problem with having no camera enforcement signs? If the rules are abided by, they shouldn't be an issue. They are not mandatory anyway. Having said that, if the signage is inadequate/incorrect then your PCNs should be cancelled. That is what PATAS is for.

[green_and_mean]

Never a wise move ignoring tram signs!!

 

[johnpye944]

I too have just received a notice for going through Tram stop on Goldsmith Street, in my instance I was following my Sat Nav looking for the Premier Inn, it was the first time I have driven in Nottingham so unfamiliar with the road layout.

 

My Sat Nav took me down Chaucer Street and at the end there is NO sign to say I can't turn left, the only sign is a tiny "No Through Road" sign on the opposite side of the junction, naturally I assumed this meant the road came to some sort of dead end as is usually the case when faced with such a sign. I turned left expecting the Premier Inn to be down there anyway, so far so good no offence has been committed. Next thing I know I am driving right up to a tram stop, there is no other junctions to turn down, no turning facility, at this point I hadn't seem any signs to say I couldn't drive through but remember thinking its odd driving through such a stop and was I doing the right thing, anyway I am faced with making a split decision on whether to drive through or do a "U" turn possibly in front of a Tram. Having had a family member tragically killed doing such a "U" some years ago (by a car not a tram) I made the split decision to drive through especially as I had not seen anything to say I couldnt.

 

Upon arriving at the Hotel I was still unsure whether I was allowed to drive throught the stop and so questioned with the receptionist who advised that I shouldnt and customers are always doing it, to my amazment there was 6 other people in the hotel reception area that had done exactly the same as me that very evening! Because of this I walked back to double check I hadnt missed any roadsigns and I was correct, nothing at the end of Chaucer Street to prevent you from turning left but there was signs either sign of the tramstop however these are spaced wide apart, well away from the usually positioning at the edge of the road, I hadnt seen these due to the vast spacing between them, the fact one was positioned up against a building wall, the other was in line with a row of trees and it was very dark.

Two points here: -

1. Why are they so far apart and not next to the road in a more obvious visable position to the motorist?

2. By the time you are in a position to see the sign to advise you cant proceed any further there is no other roads to turn down, no turning provision and the only way to prevent yourself driving through is via a very dangerous U turn potentially in front of a Tram! Good road planning NCC!

 

I always adhere to road signs and in 27 years of driving have never ignored a road sign or traffic signal, and obviously as such have never received any such penalties. I object strongly to this fine as I feel the only reason I drove through this Tram Stop is because of Nottingham County Councils failure to provide adequate road signs. I have searched the internet and found somebody who has made the same mistake, contested and won! At the appeal NCC didnt even bother to turn up and the court found that there was inadequate signage and overturned the fine.

 

I too am going to appeal to my fine and would like to hear from anyone else who has made the same mistake and is willing to stand up to NCC!

 

One last comment, shouldn't NCC stop issuing fines until they have made adequate road sign provision to advise motorist correctly? Maybe thats why they offer a 50% reduction in your fine from £60 to £30 to get you to pay up quickly! I'm fighting mine on principle!

[sailor sam]

Hi John and welcome to CAG

 

Really you should start your own thread. But having said that, the OP on this one (cooperm4n) didn't seem to come back to let us know the out come which is the what normally happens i'm afraid.

 

I've just taken another look at this as it's been a while now since we had the OPs case. It would appear to me that even the Google Street View vehicle went through the stop as the blue trace on the 'map' is continuous. Normally the blue line only indicates streets (or parts of) which are accessible to all vehicles (and was accessible to the camera car). Obviously this isn't to be used as an indication that there are no restrictions at all and that you shouldn't rely on Street View legally. Also, i'm having to assume that the situ now is the same as what is shown on Street View which can be out of date.

 

Having said that, although my opinion given in post #11 still stand, I think the signage is very suspect as they are not positioned very well. I also agree that there dosn't appear to be any obvious pre-warning of the restriction or adequate road markings. As i said previously, even the Street View camera car didn't realise!

Unfortunately though it's difficult to advise on what your chances are because we don't know how the OP got on. Clearly this must be a big problem and no doubt it is catching a lot of people out.

[tiredTraveller]

dammit - I now know exactly which tram gate the OP means because I turned left into it due to the signs being obscured by building works around what used to be the Nottingham Trent Uni student union building.

The problem is that I stopped *just before the gate*, passenger told me there's no way to back out now, and you're already screwed so you might as well go and I agreed and kept going. I only realised walking back that way he was completely wrong.

 

D'oh - I'm guessing that although the signs are obscured and confusing the fact I stopped, looked at the situation and then carried on is just going to look far too bad to get out of paying this one so I'll just have to cough up...

[Coupon]

Nope. Not if the signs were obscured. I would not cough up I would appeal based on obscured signs, can you get a photo of them whilst they are like that?

[tiredTraveller]

unfortunately I live down in London, so it'd cost me more than the fine in petrol and time. That and I did stop short of the tramgate, assess the situation (albeit wrongly) and then drive through, so I'm 99% sure I don't have a leg to stand on.

 

I think I'd have had more of a chance if I'd just driven straight through to be honest...