Winning Judgement, employer wont pay

[Jammin1984]

Hi all, ive just discovered this forum and it has given me a glimer of hope!

 

If i am reposting a question which has already been asked i apologise. To my legally niave self it seems there are so many variables that no two people are in the same boat.

 

My ex employer owes me just under £4K in unpaid wages. I have a winning employment tribunal saying so also.

 

It is a ltd company. However the company is now basically just a name; it has no staff or seizable assets. It is just a virtual office and postbox. Therefore, as far as know there is no point sending in the balifs; it is the company that is liable, not the owner and therefore I cannot send the ballifs to his property.

 

So i am stumped at what my options are. It seems to me that an employeer can disregard any debt with the only consequences been a poor credit rating. It also makes me think the tribunal result isnt worth a penny.

 

I know that if he put the company into liquidation that I could claim back a good chunk of the owed amount via National Insurance / RPO. However I know he has a business loan secured against his home therefore will never do this.

 

Additionally he has not paid my tax or national insurance for any of 09/10.

 

Im at a loss of what my options are. I have looked at the "Got a judgement?" sticky in this forum and it looks that "An Order To Attend" may be the road to go down? Or would you good folks recommend another course of action?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated and any options considered!

 

Thanks

Edited January 4, 2011 by Jammin1984

[fork-it]

I dont think bailiffs can help you because there are no tangibles. You can petition for a Winding up Order. That will scupper him being a director a Ltd company for a good long time and might trump up the goods.

[Jammin1984]

Hi, and thanks for the quick reply.

 

Am I right by winding up order you mean #5 "Statutory Demand" listed on the "Got A Judgement" sticky? (Sorry I cant post links until post count of 20)

 

Would this mean I would have to pay the cost of liquidation fees, and a solicitors fees? If so, is there anyway around this?

 

 

Thanks again.

[fork-it]

Make an enquiry in the legal section of this forum. If no luck then try the swarb forums.

[Jammin1984]

Brilliant, thanks again

[Jammin1984]

Ive just looked on company house, and it looks like he has changed the registered address of the company back to his home address?

 

Does this mean I can send the baliffs to his home?

[fork-it]

He will only tell the bailiff the goods in his home are not the property of the Ltd company.

[Jammin1984]

Ahh, bugger!

 

I was getting excited there!

 

Thanks again for-it, its very much appreciated.

[andydd]

I would of thought it is possible to send the bailiffs to his home address but it is unclear whether they could actually take anything as he could simply claim the items were his and not the company's.

 

Running up huge debts as a Ltd. compoany and then not paying anything back, even if ordered to by a court seems rather common, my local paper ios always full of stories about notorious clamping firm LBS, who now have CCJ's in excess of £25,000 yet no one has been succesfully in recovering any money.

 

I know that there is a route to make directors personallly liable for the Ltd company but I'm afraid I dont know the legalities of it. Are you aware of anyone else owed money, other employees, suppliers , etc ?

 

Andy

[fork-it]

I dont know of any procedure, but I do know a Council can transfer liability for unpaid NNDR from the Ltd company to a director and charge his personal property, but its very rarely called upon. HMCS (un paid VAT) has a similar arrangement.

 

With a clamping firm (Ltd Co) running up unpaid CCJ and writs then there is little to stop them winding up and setting up elsewhere a-la Drakes Bailiffs.

 

was this wnat you are thinking of?

[jimbo45]

Hi there

although you are on "The other side of the fence" here (most Caggers need advice on dealing with DCA's / paying off debts , stopping repossessions etc.) you've discovered that there is a HUGE difference in GETTING a court judgement and actually having it ENFORCED.

 

Unless the 3rd party has tangible assets you are really wasting your time and money. If there is property involved you could go for a charging order but even here it could take YEARS to get any money back.

 

The only realistic thing you can do is to ensure the debtors credit reference is marked accordingly so they won't be able to get credit in the future or if they are a company director get the company shut down and have them barred from being company directors again for the forseeable future.

 

Even if you try and make them Bankrupt it will cost YOU money and if there aren't enough seizable assets this is a waste of time as well -- it will just become a "Lawyers Fest" with you paying the Bill.

 

Using Bailiff's for smallish debts will probably cost you more than you'll get back anyway-- what does a typical household have these days that is of decent resale value -- the 2nd hand value at auction of even the latest large scale LCD TV isn't worth anything decent -- the whole idea of Bailiff's for debt collection has really passed its sell by date in most cases these days.

 

I'd put this down to a painful learning experience as you are unlikely ever to be able to get anything decent back from this debt.

 

cheers

 

jimbo

Edited January 5, 2011 by jimbo45

[Guest carlos999]

Hi - i am also new to this forum to offer advice however was accused of being a 'troll' and 'bailiff' so decided not to offer any advice, however on this occasion i will as it is very much in my field.

 

I am a solicitor so have a reasonable knowledge of tribunal/litigation and subsquent enforcement.

 

It is always money well spent to instruct court officers to attend as it will give you a better idea of the situation. As its a tribunal award you may use high court enforcement officers (try high court enforcement group - they have recovered succesfully from me !! i was obviously not happy they took my car but they did a very good job nonetheless!).

 

This will cost a very nominal fee and they will make visits to both home address's and work. If they find goods they can remove they will, or explain to the debtor the implications of failure to comply. (As a debtor i ignored them when they did this and it cost me a lot of money!)

 

If this is unsuccessful they will send you a negative report and you can serve a stat demand followed by winding up proceedings which if the company itself is tangible then you will recover your money. It is imperative you do this quickly. Get your judgement paperwork in order and call high court enforcement group or similar high court enforcement company. I have used marstons and HCE group to recover and found HCE more succesful.

 

Thanks Carl

[Jammin1984]

I would of thought it is possible to send the bailiffs to his home address but it is unclear whether they could actually take anything as he could simply claim the items were his and not the company's.

 

Running up huge debts as a Ltd. compoany and then not paying anything back, even if ordered to by a court seems rather common, my local paper ios always full of stories about notorious clamping firm LBS, who now have CCJ's in excess of £25,000 yet no one has been succesfully in recovering any money.

 

I know that there is a route to make directors personallly liable for the Ltd company but I'm afraid I dont know the legalities of it. Are you aware of anyone else owed money, other employees, suppliers , etc ?

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy, and thanks for the reply. There are other two other ex employees owed wages, and im assuming the tax man too. I am in contact with the ex employees.

[josephbloggs]

the problem with going down the route of stopping the director becoming a director of any other companies is most people faced with that possibility get a 'fall guy' or 'puppet' to become director rack up a load of debt, move on to the next victim and so on.

and as previously said you have a judgement in the name of the ltd company not the individual themselves, so bailiffs/hceo's would be wasting their time and your money by visiting home address.

many people register their ltd companies at a home address knowing full well bailiffs have no powers at the domestic dwelling.

[jimbo45]

Hi all

I think sometimes whatever the legal position is Solicitors often get removed from the actual "Day to day" reality of the process.

 

You can have ALL the Bailiff's on the ENTIRE PLANET attend but if there isn't anything collectable that is even remotely worth a fraction of the debt you are trying to collect it's POINTLESS.

 

I'll bet that in 99% of households in the UK at the moment you could put the ENTIRE contents of a house up for auction and it's unlikely to realize more than a few HUNDRED QUID. Second hand stuff has very little resale value these days. Jewellery, paintings and vehicles excepted which are usually removed long before trouble arises anyway.

 

In any case Bailiff's CAN'T take tools that are needed for a trade, certain types of furniture etc and the default debtor will certainly have removed such possible items of value as jewellery, paintings and vehicles long before a Bailiff is involved.

 

So please SOLS GET REAL. Some debts unfortunately JUST CAN'T BE COLLECTED whatever the legal process has to say. This is why these people get away with 100,000's of pounds while the likes of the ordinary people who have problems on smallish amounts of Council Tax or credit Card debt get the most horrendous treatment and extortionate collection charges thrown at them since these debts are usually "more collectable".

 

Cheers

jimbo

[clairees]

The process for the enforcement of employment tribunal awards through high court enforcement officers was recently changed to make it easier and quicker. The charge to transfer up is £50 and there is NO abortive fee, so the maximum outlay is £50 - I would suggest it's worth a shot!

 

If your previous employer has IT equipment and the like at his home office, it should be easy to prove those belong to the company and seize them. Even though the items threatened by seizure may not be worth enough, the inconvenience may put enough pressure on him to pay up.

 

Personally, I would recommend The Sheriffs Office - they have quite a few articles on their site about enforcing tribunal awards - the address is thesheriffsoffice.com/articles

 

Good luck!

[andydd]

The process for the enforcement of employment tribunal awards through high court enforcement officers was recently changed to make it easier and quicker. The charge to transfer up is £50 and there is NO abortive fee, so the maximum outlay is £50 - I would suggest it's worth a shot!

 

If your previous employer has IT equipment and the like at his home office, it should be easy to prove those belong to the company and seize them. Even though the items threatened by seizure may not be worth enough, the inconvenience may put enough pressure on him to pay up.

 

Personally, I would recommend The Sheriffs Office - they have quite a few articles on their site about enforcing tribunal awards - the address is thesheriffsoffice.com/articles

 

Good luck!

 

Yes, it is the inconvienance and the threat of having goods taken away that is the real reason why many people pay up, if ever you watch the Bailiffs TV prog you will see that they very rarely remove goods (and prob dont want to coz its hassle) but when they do they sell for pitiful amounmts at auction.

 

Andy

[Delboy1976]

hi I'm going through same kind of thing i'm using Sherforce HCEO you can find them at Sherforce.net my former employer is saying all sorts first saying he is no longer sole proprietor so as he said he was at the hearing i have sent them to his home address .

I hope you have luck i am owed around the same as you and wish it was over but carry on trying as the little people can't afford to let this money go .

there are ways trust me .

[Guest carlos999]

again it appears people with little knowledge are speculating on the methods of enforcement that solicitors use! A hceo in my experience only recovers in about 30 percent of cases, but to take enforcement further/ use alternate enforcement it is necessary to prove to a judge that other methods ie execution against goods has occured, otherwise a judge may reject any application for insolvency. I think the term necessary evil would be appropriate.

I had hceo's recover from me personallyy and they certainly did there job, i thought i could just hide my car and then sort things out later if the creditor continued, unfortunately they found and removed my car!

On the plus side having seen how effective they are - i now use them in my proffesion and sometimes get results and sometimes dont , but it is a good stepping stone to alternate methods, just thought i would add my two pennys worth

[jimbo45]

The process for the enforcement of employment tribunal awards through high court enforcement officers was recently changed to make it easier and quicker. The charge to transfer up is £50 and there is NO abortive fee, so the maximum outlay is £50 - I would suggest it's worth a shot!

 

If your previous employer has IT equipment and the like at his home office, it should be easy to prove those belong to the company and seize them. Even though the items threatened by seizure may not be worth enough, the inconvenience may put enough pressure on him to pay up.

 

Personally, I would recommend The Sheriffs Office - they have quite a few articles on their site about enforcing tribunal awards - the address is thesheriffsoffice.com/articles

 

Good luck!

 

Hi there

I think you are still missing the entire point here.

 

OK you can go for the legal stuff BUT IF THERE ISN'T ANYTHING COLLECTABLE WHAT'S THE POINT. All you've done is spend more money pursuing an uncollectable debt.

 

There are times that you just have to accept the fact that no amount of LEGAL processes can actually get your money back if there isn't any to be had from the debtor.

 

Literally ZILLIONS of businesses walk away owing loads of money.

 

Unlike individuals its almost impossible to pursue these companies --especially if they are like one and two man "Under the Railway Arches" types of businesses or "fly by night" Sole Traders.

 

Cheers

jimbo

[sillygirl1]

I wouldn't use the Bailiff program as an example, it is very very biased and gives out inaccurate information left right and centre on what bailiffs can/can't do.

 

I think you need to get a re-hearing at a court and escalate this, also you can get hold of ACAS and see what they can do, there is a process where they can pay out if the company has gone bust and has no assets, and they will then make sure the director cannot be a director of another company, was reading about this yesterday.

[Johno100]

I think you need to get a re-hearing at a court and escalate this

On what basis and for what purpose. Throwing good money after bad?

 

..also you can get hold of ACAS and see what they can do

They can mediate between the employee and the Company but that needs both parties to co-operate, seems unlikely.

 

..there is a process where they [ACAS] can pay out if the company has gone bust and has no assets

Nope, if the Company enters a formal insolvency procedure then the employees can seek to recover monies owed that are considered preferential debts from the National Insurance Fund, this is administered by the Redundancy Payments Directorate of The Insolvency Service and not ACAS. The catch 22 situation here is that the Company does not appear to be intending to go into Voluntary Liquidation and the OP, or any other creditor for that matter, does not want to spend more money placing the company into Compulsory Liquidation with the knowledge that it has few if any assets.

 

 

..and they will then make sure the director cannot be a director of another company, was reading about this yesterday.

Nope, ACAS has no such powers, The Insolvency Service can seek to disqualify a director if they have sufficent evidence to take before court. Of course this won't help the OP get his / her money.

[Simmo52]

I had a similar award myself late last year. However, my employer did the same as yours and set up another company with an almost similar name! My old boss just added the word 'services' and set the new company up just as I and another employee started proceedings!

 

I instructed High Court Bailiffs and they could'nt get me my money as all the goods of value (vans) had been sold to the new company. They did rattle my old boss but at the end of the day there was nothing they could take.

 

Surely this can't be legal?

Edited January 10, 2011 by Simmo52
typo

[Johno100]

I had a similar award myself late last year. However, my employer did the same as yours and set up another company with an almost similar name! My old boss just added the word 'services' and set the new company up just as I and another employee started proceedings!

 

I instructed High Court Bailiffs and they could'nt get me my money as all the goods of value (vans) had been sold to the new company. They did rattle my old boss but at the end of the day there was nothing they could take.

 

Surely this can't be legal?

 

I think you may have gone down the wrong route.

 

If the only change in the way the new company operates is the name and everything else remained the same, particularly if the remaining employees were transferred to the new company then I would have suggested submitting a claim to the Employment Tribunals naming both companies. If the tribunal had found in your favour and that there had been a transfer of undertakings then the new company would be liable for the judgment amount and you could have sought recovery from that new company.