Is it an offence to remove the PCN from the window

[Forcemaster]

It seems somewhat strange...

 

If you park in a private carpark are receive an Parking Charge Notice (PCN) from said private company, they often have on the poly-envelope that it is "Any Offence For Any Person But The Driver To Remove This Notice..."

 

Just what offence are we to be allegedly undertaking???

 

Which brings up another question... If it is not an offense, what is to stop me going round my local hospital car park where i see these being issued all the time and removing them??? or better yet maybe we could train animals to peel them off:razz:

 

Finally, I just have to share with you the following photo of a PCN i received recently... Although I am always happy to ignore these, I am sorely tempted to send a copy of the photo to the issuing company saying that the ticket is unenforcable because the text had faded and the note part discintigrated in the water!!!

[Surfer01]

I would not waste time and energy on these morons!

[green_and_mean]

Which brings up another question... If it is not an offense, what is to stop me going round my local hospital car park where i see these being issued all the time and removing them??? or better yet maybe we could train animals to peel them off:razz:

 

 

Removing something that does not belong to you would be theft.

[DBC]

Removing something that does not belong to you would be theft.

 

Does that apply to any flyer that is left on a car? Be it one from the PPC or one from the pizza parlour. Who actually owns the piece of paper left by a PPC. Is it the PPC, the car-driver/RK or the landowner?

[buzby]

As it is a speculative invoice, it has no more legals standing that an advertising flyer. The fact these firms use chequered borders on their envelopes and talk of 'offence' is simply part of their wish to add legitimacy to their business practices, nothing more.

[green_and_mean]

Does that apply to any flyer that is left on a car? Be it one from the PPC or one from the pizza parlour. Who actually owns the piece of paper left by a PPC. Is it the PPC, the car-driver/RK or the landowner?

 

It doesn't really matter who owns it unless you have good reason it belongs to you it would be theft.

[DBC]

As it is a speculative invoice, it has no more legals standing that an advertising flyer. The fact these firms use chequered borders on their envelopes and talk of 'offence' is simply part of their wish to add legitimacy to their business practices, nothing more.

 

But our old friend Patrick Troy has gone on record saying that the chequered/yellow borders are there just to make them "more visible". I suppose it's just a coincidence that the PPCs use the same colour scheme as the police and councils. Colour me cynical!

[DBC]

It doesn't really matter who owns it unless you have good reason it belongs to you it would be theft.

 

Do you really believe that the police would ever charge somebody for removing a worthless piece of paper? Or does the "owner" ( whoever that is) have to press charges?

 

I have actually emailed several PPC's asking them to tell what particular "offence" would be commited. Up to now, not one has replied. I wonder why?

[green_and_mean]

Do you really believe that the police would ever charge somebody for removing a worthless piece of paper? Or does the "owner" ( whoever that is) have to press charges?

 

I have actually emailed several PPC's asking them to tell what particular "offence" would be commited. Up to now, not one has replied. I wonder why?

 

I didn't say you would be charged I was stating its a criminal offence the paper may seem worthless but thats not really the point. If you owned a pizza company and went around putting flyers on cars and another company went around removing them and throwing them away would you be happy even though a flyer cost a few pence or would you see it as an offence?

[Forcemaster]

I'd actually be more worried about a littering charge

[buzby]

Or the fact I would be pursuing them for damage/weakening my windscreem wiper or for the gluie removal. Just because something is placed ON a vehicle does not in itself transfer ownership of said item to the driver. owner, or RK.

 

Similarly, if I had not noticed said flyer and it fell from my vehicle as I drove off, I would justly deny littering as it wasn't mine, I hadn't put it there, and was unaware of its presence.

[DBC]

So if the ownership of the ticket still rests with the PPC and the definition of theft is " A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it". Then all that has to be done is to post the ticket back to the PPC with a little note saying "yours I believe".

[green_and_mean]

So if the ownership of the ticket still rests with the PPC and the definition of theft is " A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it". Then all that has to be done is to post the ticket back to the PPC with a little note saying "yours I believe".

 

Yes if you sent it back that would be ok but a little pointless, most PPC will still write to the keeper regardless of the ticket being 'served' on them.

[DBC]

Yes if you sent it back that would be ok but a little pointless, most PPC will still write to the keeper regardless of the ticket being 'served' on them.

 

But the keeper may not be the driver, and the RK is not obliged to give the PPC the name of the driver. End of story!

[green_and_mean]

But the keeper may not be the driver, and the RK is not obliged to give the PPC the name of the driver. End of story!

 

So why bother removing the ticket in the first place and then waste more time posting it back?

[DBC]

So why bother removing the ticket in the first place and then waste more time posting it back?

 

To remove the very, very small possibility that you could be charged with theft!

[sailor sam]

My opinion is that the answer to the title of the thread is 'NO' unless it is disgarded on the ground and becomes litter. It isn't a PCN at the end of the day. I can't see a problem if some 'other person' removes it and puts it ito a litter bin where it belongs. If action were to be taken, the defense would be that as it was attached to your vehicle without your consent or knowledge, you assumed that the owner of the said document was leaving it as a gift and no longer wanted it.

 

Please Note

 

 

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I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

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[Old Snowy]

The removal of a Penalty Charge Notice is an offence as set out in s.11 of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007. These regulations do not apply to "Parking Charge Notices" or any of the other made up titles for what are in reality simply speculative invoices.

 

Let's not allow ourselves to be deluded about the reason why some, not all, pretendy-coo parking tickets retain the warning about a putative offence and that is simply to continue the illusion (in the mind of the recipient) that they are the real thing or to, at least, create sufficient impression that it is that few will run the risk. The yellow and black packages; the style of tickets, letters and their wording are almost universally designed for the same purpose. In my view.

 

The wording of the warning given by PPC's is in any event ambiguous and far more restrictive than the genuine offence they are attempting to model as this allows for the owner or person in charge of the vehicle or someone acting with their authority to remove or interfere with it. To debate whether the removal of a ticket amounted to theft is, in my view, somewhat redundant given the elements it is necessary to prove.

[green_and_mean]

To remove the very, very small possibility that you could be charged with theft!

 

I meant why bother removing it in the first place? It serves no purpose at all, if its to stop the driver paying it they are just as likely going to pay the follow up letter so as I have already stated the whole thing is pointless. Just leave it there and get on with your life there are far more things in life to worry about.

[diskmandave]

IMG00140-20101109-1443.jpg

 

Appears to be the envelope of a Penalty Charge Notice. Not a PPC invoice.

[lamma]

Lots of PPCs use those.

 

if its council leave it alone (council car park, on-street)

 

if its PPC who cares whats in it.

 

in either case add a note pointing them here for advice !

[Al27]

It's 'theft' in a fairly loose sense.

 

Anything can be stolen, but we don't put "it's an offence to remove this item" on our wheelbarrow in the garden, or on the rose bush in the front garden.

 

It's merely a psychological tool again to draw parallels with a legitimate council PCNs and add credence to what is a mere speculative invoice.

[Old Snowy]

IMG00140-20101109-1443.jpg

 

Appears to be the envelope of a Penalty Charge Notice. Not a PPC invoice.

Agreed. However, keep in mind that many PPC's also continue to use these envelopes as well as those who are entitled to do so.

[buzby]

These envelopes are sold legitimately from stationary suppliers (and on eBay, I recall) as the same manufacturers of those 'Doxuments Enclosed' make these too.

 

It would be nice to think that the use of these would be outlawed for PPCs but I doubt it'll happen.

[DBC]

This is an example of such a notice from UKCPS:-

 

 

 

And this is the BPA's word on this matter (from their "code of practice"):-

 

The parking ticket must be waterproof or put in a waterproof envelope, and say on it that the ticket must not be removed from the vehicle by an unauthorised person.

 

But how do you define who an "authorised person" is, and how is that "authority" granted?

 

Of course, in reality this is just a smoke and mirrors exercise to make these tickets look official.

Edited December 20, 2010 by DBC