County Court action by ex friend

[debbbbsy]

I wouldn't mention anything at this stage about who gave who what, this case rests on 2 points.

Did a written agreement exist ?

Was the credit card debt lawfully transferred ?

 

They have sent me a copy of this document with the POC already

 

Sorry, what document have they provided?

 

At this stage, I think you only have to acknowledge that you have recieved the court docs, this can be done online. Once done, you then have more time to file your defence. You can ring the courts, they'll confirm this.

[debbbbsy]

in a nutshell- simply deny any debt to the claimant if the claimant is not the person/company that lent you the money

 

Totally agree.

[indianamachno]

Diddy can you help me with what to write back to solicitors should say was lent by ltd company and it is now dissolved.?

 

I have checked all it say is desolved in nov 2009 through voluntary strike off.

[Bigdebtor]

This is one case where I wish the client's legal advisers were aware of this thread and all of the posts - as any sensible lawyer would tell their client WALK AWAY NOW - don't accept ANY further payments and HOPE that Police and HMRC don't get involved.

 

THis would be the quickest and easist way of drawing a line under the whole affair amnd saving the OP £2900 into the bargain.

 

I can see why this woman's business didn't make any money - she hadn't a CLUE!

 

By her stupid and possibly criminal actions I also think she has lost all moral (and legal) entitlement to receive any more payment sand should be made to forego the £2900 still "outstanding" as it is actually owed to a Company which is no longer in existence - so the debt died with it.

 

BD

[debbbbsy]

1. The agreement between myself and the claimant. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon an agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

I have ammended this section of the CPR. For her personally to instigate legal proceedings and enforce the claim in court, there needs to exist an agreement with the claimant. If an agreement exists between you and the Ltd company. Firstly, this agreement will have to be in the prescribed form. Secondly, this company must still be trading.

Her POC state that you both agreed for your liabilites to be transferred to her credit card. Her solicitor has to produce proof of this, and that this transfer occured with the Credit Cards permission.

 

This solicitor is not going to respond to any unofficial letter. You MUST use the CPR, they are legally obliged to respond in 7 days. It will force there hand, either they comply (which they can't) or discontinue the claim.

Please send the CPR recoreded.

 

Debs

[indianamachno]

How can i find out if she paid this money that i gave her back into her company's accounts? It does not say anything on companies house except no accounts filed.

 

regards M

[indianamachno]

The alleged agreement with her writen on the credit card statement is the only document served with the POC it is on reply 44 hun

[debbbbsy]

The alleged agreement with her writen on the credit card statement is the only document served with the POC it is on reply 44 hun

 

Thought so. This document does not prove you owe the money, it cannot be used in court to enforce the claim. In fact, if they do use it, she is attempting to gain judgement by fraud. Thats why I suggest you attach the letter to the solicitor, making them aware that there client has illegally altered this document.

[indianamachno]

Thank you Debs very much i will wait and see if anyone has anything else to add or I will send what you wrote..x

[debbbbsy]

No problem, check with the courts about what they want from you. I'm pretty certain, that when you recieve court papers, the first step is Acknowlegement. If this is the stage you are at, if they ignore your CPR & letter & continue with the claim. You will have a few more weeks to file your defence.

I personally feel that once you state your intent to challenge, and use official requests (showing your not ignorant of court procedures), they'll back off.

 

Take care

Debs xxx

[indianamachno]

Thank you Debs x

 

If any of you guys have any more suggestion, Idea's or help with me to construct a letter i will be glad of any further help.

 

Thank you again to everyone who has helped up to now your all fantastic people xxx

Edited December 17, 2010 by indianamachno

[diddydicky]

to be honest- this is a case where you can go to a local solicitor and find a no win no fee (CFA) arrangement - since this is a stone cold dead cert win for you and your lawyers can really hammer her with costs

 

have you checked your household insurance? most have legal cover

Edited December 17, 2010 by diddydicky

[indianamachno]

I have been and i have asked two solicitors i dont know if its the time of year but they are so caggy and wont do no win no fee because i am defending.

 

Have checked my house insurance i dont have it .

 

Thanks xx

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Indianamachno,

This is a fascinating case, try not to worry, as everyone has said she is walking on very thin ice and I think ultimately she'll back off, otherwise the facts presented to the court could bite her in the backside. At best she is clearly a vexatious litigant, at worst she could well have used you to syphon funds out of her failing business prior to dissolution.

 

You mention that you have the statement showing the bank transfer of the money loaned

Crucial question: What is stated as the source of the funds..her as a person, or her company name?

 

Once we know that we'll know better how to proceed...

 

Elsa x

Edited December 18, 2010 by Undercover-Elsa

[Undercover-Elsa]

Me again

Another question:

Did you receive any written warning before this summons was issued? Eg a letter (usually headed "Letter Before Action" ) demanding repayment of the debt otherwise court action would be taken?

 

If so can you post up the wording?

 

 

Also, for reference, an extract from Halifax One Card's Terms and Conditions:

 

22. Transferring rights under this agreement

22.1 You may not transfer any of your rights or duties under this agreement.

 

Elsa x

[Bigdebtor]

Hi Indianamachno,

This is a fascinating case, try not to worry, as everyone has said she is walking on very thin ice and I think ultimately she'll back off, otherwise the facts presented to the court could bite her in the backside. At best she is clearly a vexatious litigant, at worst she could well have used you to syphon funds out of her failing business prior to dissolution.

 

You mention that you have the statement showing the bank transfer of the money loaned

Crucial question: What is stated as the source of the funds..her as a person, or her company name?

 

Once we know that we'll know better how to proceed...

 

Elsa x

 

Elsa

 

VG point (as usual!). If her bank statement doesn't show source of funds then this should be part of info demanded under CPR. There is new ammo coming out on this from every post. That is why I urge the OP to TAKE HER TIME - gather ALL this ammo and then hit the solicitor with everything - but only once the strategy is clearly developed.

 

As you say, if the Claimant has any sense she back off before she lands herself in very serious trouble with costs, HMRC and Criminal investigations!

 

The OP says no one will take it on a no win no fee basis - but in this case it might be worth actually spending a few hundred of her own money on getting a solicitor to respond - and reclaim this from the claimant - even if she now drops the case. However I'm sure there can be a strong enough response with all of the ammo given here to get them to back off very early!

 

BD

[indianamachno]

Hi and thank you again everyone.

 

The funds came from her business account .

 

LETTER BEFORE ACTION.

Dear Miss xxxx

Re Our client xxxxx

We act on behalf of xxx of xxxxxxxxxxxx we have recieved instructions from our client to recover from you the sum of £9,345.25

Our clients informs us that the sum of £6,948.47 remains due and owing to our client in respect of a loan which our client obtained on your behalf with Halifax plc and to which you had agreed to pay our client by monthly instalments, plus interest to date amounts to £1,433.78

Our client informs us that she loaned you a set of taylor made golf clubs for the benefit of your son and you have now advised our client that these have been stolen. The cost to replace the same would be £963.00 and therefore our client seeks this amount being the cost of the replacement.

unless payment of the sum of £9,34525 is recived within 7 days from the date of this lettter and by no later than 4pm on the 1st september 2010 we are instructed to issue county court/insolvency proceedings against you without further recourse to you. This will result in interest and costs being added to the dept.

We trust this wont be necessary and payment will be recieved by return.

There have been other letters and the golf clubs have now been dropped out of the sum demanded but the sum of £1214.00 in cash has now been added instead to what I am suppose to owe!

I have nothing from the Halifax at all apart from a copy of the said document In the POC.

I am starting to panic a bit now as I go away on wednesday next week for xmas and I need something sending to the solicitors and i dont know what to write at all.

Debs had wrote out a cpr for me but it seems to have changed again

thank you xx

[Undercover-Elsa]

Dear Me, she has dug herself a hole! She can't take out a credit card in her name for your use and then demand that you're liable to repay it. Don't think the Halifax would be too thrilled either.

 

Good..so it came from the Business Account. I'm betting she's used you to extract funds from the business before it went bust.

OK, this is just my opinion, wait for others to comment, but if it was me I would send her Solicitor a hard hitting letter AND a CPR.18. CPR.18 is for information purposes only, you can ask questions but can't demand documents. However, if they mention documents in the reply, THEN as I understand it you can ask them to supply the documents under CPR 31.14 (WHERE ARE YOU PT?? need help on this )

Do you see where I'm going with this?

We want her to admit it came from the BUSINESS account. Then we can request the accounts.

 

However....I don't think it will get that far, I think when she or her solicitor see where this is going..(??money laundering, ?? tax evasion?? falsified accounting.... she will hopefully drop it like a hot potato.

 

 

Here's what I've put together. You don't need a CPR 31.14 yet. You've already got a copy of the only doc mentioned in the POC.

 

To the Solicitor:

 

Dear Sir,

I am in receipt of a County Court Claim number xxxxx in respect of your client xxxx xxxx.

I am quite frankly shocked that a legal professional would be party to what is clearly a case of vexatious litigation.

I have submitted my intention to defend the whole claim, which is inaccurate, misleading and demonstrates no cause of action:

 

• Documents relied upon in the Particulars of Claim have been materially altered,presumably with intention to deceive the court.
  

To clarify - whilst employed by the Claimant she asked me to check the card statement for accuracy and to sign or initial it to confirm I had done so.

I categorically deny that I wrote the statement of responsibility for the entire credit card balance. This was NOT on the statement when I signed it and was clearly added by a third party at a later date.

 

I have therefore now reported this to the Police (Case ID Number xxxxx)

• The Claimant cannot transfer her credit card responsibilities.
  

I would draw your attention to the Terms and Conditions of Halifax One Cards:

22. Transferring rights under this agreement

 

22.1 You may not transfer any of your rights or duties under this agreement.

• I do not acknowledge any debt to Ms (name) as described in the Particulars of Claim.
  

 

In view of the above I would strongly advise that this claim is withdrawn as it is without merit.

 

I am currently preparing my defence and enclose a formal request for information under CPR 31.18 .

 

yours faithfully etc

 

and the CPR 31.18 Request on a seperate sheet:

 

IN THE XXXXXXXXX

county court CLAIM NO:

 

BETWEEN:

 

XXXXXXXXXX

Claimant

 

and

 

XXXXXXXXXXX

 

Defendant

 

_________________________ _________________________ ___________________

PART 18 REQUEST FOR FURTHER INFORMATION

_________________________ _________________________ ___________________

 

To: XXXXXXXXXX (claimant)

Please answer the following questions:

 

1.What was the source of any loan payment made to the defendant, ie what was the name and type of bank account and was this a business or personal account?

2.What was the name and type of account to which any repayments were instructed to be made, and was this a business or personal account?

3.Was a written agreement drawn up and signed by both parties prior to making the alleged loan?

 

TAKE NOTICE THAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO ANSWER THE ABOVE REQUEST WITHIN 14 DAYS OF SERVICE OF THE SAME UPON YOU

 

 

 

You'd need to send this by Recorded or Special Delivery.

 

Please wait and get more opinions first. My aim here is to make her drop this case once she sees where it's going.

Suggestions / revisions welcome.

 

Elsa x

Edited December 18, 2010 by Undercover-Elsa

[indianamachno]

Thank you.

 

My only worry is that the fact that I have made 4 payments into this credit card account that i have not ruined it for myself no one here has mentioned it so i am hoping this is not the case.

 

Also the dates on the POC are all wrong The money was lent in dec 2008 Jan 2009 and it was for renovation costs, I paid the deposit myself back in nov 2008 .

 

I will give it till monday and then I will have to send something and I will ring the court to to see when my AOS has to be back as i think I might have a couple of extra days because of the bank holidays.

 

Says served 9th dec

[Undercover-Elsa]

Doesn't matter who makes payments into her Credit Card account. For all anyone knows at the moment your payments could have been to help her out when she was unable to pay. It proves nothing.

The responsibility for paying it off is hers alone.

I've deliberately not brought up any other indebtedness which you admit to at this point, we're responding specifically to her particulars of claim at the moment, which are ludicrous.

Have you seen the police yet?

 

Elsa x

[indianamachno]

I have spoken to them and have a incident number which I can use. They are very interested and have said that if I want them to they will go and take a statement of the claiment.

[Undercover-Elsa]

Excellent!

[Bigdebtor]

I agree with Elsa (again).

 

Just make sure any CPR 31.18 request is headed up formally - with full name of CPR spelled out etc. - but don't do anything too early and get as much other input as is available first. You seem tempted to rush into writing ASAP - but wait as long as possible to get the maximum advice available and don't wet your powder too early.

 

I think you will have a good bit longer than 27 December to respond to the Court once weekends and Bank Holidays are taken into account - ring the Court on Monday 20 December and confirm the actual latest date by which you have to respond to them and exactly how much of a response is required by then - probably just confirmation you are going to defend the case.

 

Try to get them to confirm this in writing by letter, fax or e-mail - just to safeguard yourself against any misunderstanding/misconception. If they say they can't put this in writing then establish fromm the person talking to you to whom you should address your written record of this conversation (by e-mail if possible) for avoidance of doubt etc.

 

Above all - don't worry - rarely do these cases look as clear cut in your favour as this one! You really have nothing tomwory about - other than a bit of hassle getting your rebuttal prepared.

 

BD

[indianamachno]

Hi BD and thank you once again.

 

I am only in a hurry to reply to the solicitors because i go away tuesday evening this week for the xmas holidays so i need a letter sending to the solicitors by then.

 

I will ring court on monday.

 

I really am unsure of what to write at all i am not the most confident person as it is as i say i have panic attacks etc.

 

I really do need as much help as possible and i am really trying to listen and read what everyone is saying but i am getting more confused by the day as to which Letter to send.

 

God i sound pathetic! I dont want to spoil my kids Xmas by not going away on tuesday because I have not sent the solicitors a letter and i am worried That they will say I have left it to late for them to respond as all solicitors break up for Xmas holidays next week too.

 

Thank you Guys .xxx

[Bigdebtor]

Don't worry about not giving the other side enough time. The Court will advise you the exact date by which you need to make any response and it's not up to you to second guess when/if the other side have then been given enough time to respond. It may well be all you need to do in the immediate time scale (i.e before New Year) is tell the Court you are going to defend and have requested or will request further info from the other side.

 

I can understand it does seem confusing - as you have been given lots of options as how to respond, but these are not conflicting options and just need to be consolidated into a cohesive single plan of action.

 

The way I see it, this is what the order of actions should be in the short term:

 

1. Establish exactly what you must do by when - by ringing Court tomorrow.

2. Go through the other side's claim and, using the examples of responses given earlier in this thread, put together your response - like disputing the things that are wrong - i.e. dates of payments made to you, amounts lent, who lent it (i.e. the Company - not her), amounts repaid - to whom and dates of each payment, forged Halifax statement, Halifax's T&C's not allowing the debt to be transferred to you etc. etc.

3. Having thus identified the lies/mis-statements etc. in their claim, use CPR 34.18 to seek the missing info on which they have presumably based their claims, and thus hopefully expose the weakness (and dangers) of the case to the other lawyer who may well advise his client to drop it.

 

I suspect (as do others) there has been some tax evasion or money laundering going on here, using you to unwittingly get funds from a failing company which were subsequently paid to the business owner. Did you get a P60 in April/May 2009? You should have done so - and it would be interesting to check this against the pay you actually got during the 2008/2009 Tax year - as she may now be claiming some cash payments made to you were loans and not part of your pay - but she may well have claimed something different to HMRC.

 

I'm not a lawyer - and the above advice is based on how I see it logically - but before anything is actually sent off to court or other side you should run it past some more legally experienced/qualified people here - probably by pm initially.

 

Keep the faith - you have a very good case - both legally and morally - not to pay her another penny - and probably more time than you think at present to get it all put together.

 

BD

Edited December 19, 2010 by Bigdebtor