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Consumer Credit agreements part 3


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was there a default notice served? if there wasnt then i can see why the barrister would have argued it

 

i think that the thing we must remember is that Counsel are highly trained and very skilled, and some are better than others, have you looked into the background of your counsel? seen what he or she does?

 

May be counsel has a trick up his or her sleeve

 

May be this isnt the place to be asking these questions given your opponents have accounts on here

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was there a default notice served? if there wasnt then i can see why the barrister would have argued it

 

i think that the thing we must remember is that Counsel are highly trained and very skilled, and some are better than others, have you looked into the background of your counsel? seen what he or she does?

 

May be counsel has a trick up his or her sleeve

 

May be this isnt the place to be asking these questions given your opponents have accounts on here

 

No, there wasn't any DN, which is the reason as you say the point of termination was argued, which I can see from that point of view makes sense. I reaslise they are highly trained, so maybe you are right, perhaps he does have a trick up his sleeve - certainly hope so.

 

I take your point about the "watching eyes" so won't go into it any further - I'm always aware of that, which is why I don't get too specific with any of the details.

 

Cheers for your help,

 

Magda

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  • 4 weeks later...

Have recently received this letter and attached Application form in reply to my CCA Request to Moorcroft about a MSDW Card; this is quite strange as when I tried to SAR Morgan Stanley I received nothing. Is this a properly executed agreement - I've been trawling through the the threads and I can't tell - the card was taken out in 1999. I am sorry about the quality of the form but that is how it came to me.

Thanks

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this is clearly an APPLICATION form- therefore in order for it to be considered an executed agreement- it would need to contain all of the prescribed terms of the agreement and be signed by the borower

 

normally this would come before the signature

 

are the PT's there

 

is there any proof that the t & Cs were on the back?

 

were they readbale

 

is there any reference on the signature section to say that you have read the terms and conditons, or that they are included in the document- if they are referred to as being in "another document" then they are not part of the signature document

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They have blocked out Question 5. They do this on a lot of MSDW forms. The supposed back looks as though they have stuck different bits together. Write and say you want a copy of the whole agreement, in particular Question 5, and in any case you would like to visit their offices to examine it.

 

All DCAs love requests from people wishing to visit their offices and examine their agreements!!!!!

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This explains the Prescribed Terms and may help with a letter to send them:

As you are aware, in order to comply with Section 61 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a document must conform to regulations made under the provisions of Section 60 (1) CCA 1974, otherwise it cannot be properly executed.

These regulations are the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983, SI 1983/1553, and set out the form and content of agreements.

For a form to be compliant with the Regulations it must contain within the four corners of the agreement the prescribed terms laid out in SI 1983/1553, Schedule 6, Column 2.

For running account credit the Agreement must state:

1. A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined, or that there is no credit limit.

2. A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the Agreement.

3. A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the Agreement to make the repayments which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following:

(a) number of repayments;

(b) amount of repayments;

© frequency and timing of repayments;

(d) dates of repayments;

(e) the manner in which any of the above may be determined;

or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

"The four corners of the agreement..." means that the prescribed terms cannot be in a separate document (leaflet), but in fact many of the credit card agreements were originally like that. When cardholders started to quote the prescribed terms and to point out that the agreements were therefore not compliant, the card companies/DCAs started to send out copies with the T&Cs apparently shown on the back of the application form - although in most cases they certainly wouldn't have been there. I have an absolute classic from one of my card companies: the back wouldn't in fact fit on the front!

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Thank you for letting me have the information above - the copy is virtually unreadable - as I tried to enlarge it on the copier the quality was getting worse. Have also had a letter from the Pre Court Division warning me of possible litigation so here is my reply to the letter sending me the application form;

 

I refer to your recent letter, where you enclosed a copy of an Application Form. May I remind you that this account is still in dispute as you have not provided a copy of the original credit agreement relating to the above account. May I also point out that the copy Application Form you have supplied is not legible due to the quality and size of the copy, Section 5 appears to have been blocked out and a copy of the back of the form has not been supplied.

 

May I remind you of your obligations under the Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (specifically regulations 5 and 6) and the Office of Fair Trading Guidance on Debt Collection. I therefore request that you confirm whether you currently hold or have ever held a properly Executed Credit Agreement pertaining to the above account and if so please forward a copy to me by return.

If you are unable to supply a legible copy of the agreement I can make arrangements to view the same at your offices if so required.

If you DO NOT have a signed, properly executed Consumer Credit Act Agreement pertaining to myself, then I require written confirmation by return (CPUTR 2008 reg 5 and 6).

Do you think this will do ? Comments would be appreciated

Thanks in advance

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any document supplied by the creditor under s78 must be "EASILY LEGIBLE " if not- then the creditor is in default of 78 and is barred from enforcement

 

if the creditor cannot supply you with a legible microfiche or photocopy of the original agreement (given the quality of modern photocopiers) then it is likely that the original from which he has produced that copy is equally illegible (and as much use in court as a chocolate teapot!)

 

the ONLY way the creditor can get around it is to type out in a legible form a copy of the alleged agreement (and which very few do -- bless)!!

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  • 1 month later...

Have not received a further reply to the above letter - made a payment in January (£25) and February (£50) but really not sure what to do next - can't really afford the agreed amount this month but I don't want to contact them and remind them of my existence to ask for reduced payments - they were very nasty to me in January when I rang to say I would make a reduced payment as a gesture of goodwill !!! Any suggestions ...................

Thank you

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Hi gettingsorted, sorry you are having problems. You can do one of two things, either stop payments completely until such time that they comply with your s78 request, although if they later do, you need to be aware that the debt will have increased due to interest. Or, you can write to them outlining what you can afford to pay, not a penny more, reminding them at the same time that they are still in default of your request. I take it they have just supplied an application form, but not any original terms and conditions containing the prescribed terms?

 

If you decide to continue to make payments and they refuse the amount offered, then you can pay it anyway. You tell them what you can afford to pay, not the other way around. Don't speak to them on the phone, it's best really to put anything in writing, unless you have a call recording device. If they do ring, my favourite trick now is to say, "oh just a minute, I'll get her/him for you," and then I leave them on hold, which they don't particularly like.

 

I'm sure you'll get everything sorted, it just sometimes takes a while to get there!

 

Magda

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi all, just wondered if anyone has a spreadsheet that will work out contractual interest on credit card charges for me. Also, quick question: I read on another thread that it is possible to charge contractual interest on each individual penalty charge, and then further interest on the overall amount that you've calculated. Is this correct.

 

Many thanks,

 

Magda

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Magda

 

There is a spreadsheet on the site you can use, but it can get complicated if the OC kept changing its contractual interest rates.

 

You can charge interest on each individual unfair default charge from the day they impose it right up until it gets refunded at THEIR Interest rates. In addition if they don't settle out of court then the court will award a further 8% statutory interest on the amount claimed.

 

Hope this helps?

 

BD

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Hi Bigdebtor, thanks for your help. I'm trying to get hold of all the statements I need at the moment, so hopefully can then work out what I need to charge as far as interest goes. I suppose if it started at say 19% and ended up being 23% APR, then you could maybe just charge 19% on the whole lot.

 

Thanks again,

 

Magda

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Ideally I'd like to sting them for as much as I can, so will wait for the statements (if they provide them) and then work out exactly what I am owed. I'm sure it won't be too bad once I've mastered the spreadsheet:-)

 

Many thanks,

 

Magda

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Magda

 

OK - let me know if you want any help. I've done quite a few such spreadsheets - and it's amazing how quickly the amount of refund rises at their rates compounded monthly! They should give you all the statements for at least teh last 6 years.

 

Incidentally don't believe any guff about only being entitled to recaim anything over £12 - or that the 6 year limit applies. You can reclaim ALL unfair charges IN FULL right back to the very first one issued (typically around mid 2000). There are a number of threads dealing with both points and sample letters too if needed.

 

BD

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you can also use this:

 

http://www.egalegal.com/compoundWindow.html

 

rests=12

360 days

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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