Phoenix/Carter Claimform - ** Discontinued **

[The_Debt_Man]

Hi

 

I've received a court claim form from Northampton county court

saying that i owe Phoenix recoveries £170.00.

 

The POC says that its for “the price of goods sold and delivered by the claimant the defendant” “ to goods sold between 01/10/2004 and 30/09/2009”

 

Today in going to acknowledge the claim online and say that I'm going to defend the full amount of the claim.

 

I am then going to send Bryan carter a CPR 31.14.

 

In the defence template i found on here (i cant post links yet) at the bottom of the letter it says “signed”.

 

Do i just type my name here or should i actually sign it?

 

The reason i ask is that if i do sign it and the court send Bryan carter a copy of it, he will have my signature.

 

Thanks for any help given

 

This is the defence im talking about (thanks to havinastella):

 

In the Northampton County Court (CCBC)

 

Claim number

 

Between

 

- Claimant

 

And

 

- Defendant

 

Defence

 

1. I, xxxx of xxxxxxxxx make this statement as my defence to the claim brought by xxxxxxxxxx

 

2. The claimants particulars of claim are vague and fail to disclose any cause of action, they appear to be an abuse of the process in that they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the CPR even allowing for the constraints of the bulk issue system

 

3. No documents supporting the claims in the particulars have been offered nor have any dates of agreement or account numbers been stated which the defendant needs to establish what agreement it is that this action is based upon

 

4. The claimant appears to be a debt purchaser of delinquent debts and not a money lender, the claimant seems to contend that they are entitled to monies due under said agreement made between the defendant and the claimant Fredrickson international. The defendant has no knowledge of this company or any indebtedness to them relating to any agreement, the defendant has not entered into any agreement with the claimant and therefore should it be the Claimants contention that they have a claim to monies under an agreement between the defendant and another creditor, the defendant seeks clarification of this fact and proof of legal assignment as required by Law of Property Act 1925

 

5. Without clarification of the claimants claim, the defendant is extremely disadvantaged and the claimants claim appears without merit

 

6. additionally the claimant appears to have split the cause of action insofar that they bring a claim for a part of a debt. the defendant notes that this is unlawful and for authority of this fact cites Section 35 County Courts Act 1984 which sets this out clearly.

 

7. Further to that above 6 paragraphs, the defendant is unable to plead effectively or at all. The defendant is embarrassed.

 

8 the defendant seeks permission upon clarification of the claimants case and disclosure of the necessary documents to amend this defence

 

Statement of Truth

 

I xxxxxxxxxxxx, believe the above statement to be true and factual to the best of my knowledge

 

Signed .....................

 

Date

[DonkeyB]

Forget the defence for now – how can you defend if you don’t know what the CPR request will throw up? You must assume nothing.

 

I repeat, just acknowledge that you will defend the claim, get your extra 14 days and send the CPR request. DO NOT ENTER A DEFENCE YET.

 

Send the CPR request and wait for him to discontinue...

[The_Debt_Man]

Thanks for the reply

 

Thats exactly what my plan is (1. acknowledge, 2. CPR, 3.

wait, 4. send my defence) But if it does come to sending the defence should i

sign it or type/print it?

 

This is the cpr i was going to send:

[DonkeyB]

You have to end your defence with a statement of truth and a signature. Just make your signature a bit different to normal and keep a copy of what you have sent if you’re worried it might get lifted – you could put an X there, I suppose.

[The_Debt_Man]

Ok thanks

 

Is that CPR ok to send or do i need to edit it some more?

 

Thanks again for your help

[nicklea]

Please do not send that cpr letter.

 

See the link below for the reasons why. This case is exactly the same as yours:-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?284950-Pheonix-luxembourg-through-brian-carter-issued-claim-form-poss-sb-ed-too-any-advice-please&p=3212547&viewfull=1#post3212547

 

this is another case with exactly the same poc

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?284830-Bryan-Carter-Solicitors-claim-for-old-catalogue-debt&p=3223836&viewfull=1#post3223836

[The_Debt_Man]

I'm sorry to be a pain but now I'm confused.

 

I've read both the links and it seems that the advice is to send the cpr (or is there a different cpr i should be sending).

 

Please tell me what i am missing

 

And thanks for the reply

 

I've just acknowledged the claim online and said that “iintend to defend all of this claim”.

 

Can someone please let me know what cpr i should be sending

 

Thanks again everyone

[nicklea]

CPR 31.14 only extends to documents mentioned in the claimant's statement of case.

 

In your case - and the cases in these other threads there had been no mention of an agreement, assignment, default notice or termination notice.

 

Therefore you cannot request these under CPR31.14

 

Well, you can, but they are entitled to say - get lost.

 

Originally Posted by themagician

Sorry TM but I don't think the CPR template letter is appropriate here for the reasons outlined below.

 

1 The agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

No agreement is mentioned in the POC's.

2 The assignment*

 

No assignment is mentioned or required (at face value) because the POC's state that the claimant sold and delivered goods (themselves).

3 The default notice*

 

Not mentioned or possibly even required as the claim is for goods sold and delivered not a credit agreement regulated by the CCA 1974.

4 The termination notice*

See note 3 above.

5 [any other documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim] None mentioned.

[The_Debt_Man]

So what do i need to do now (I'm really confused)

 

Thanks again for the reply

[nicklea]

It's late at night and Strictly has just finished. For the moment I would suggest having anopther read of those two threads that I linked to and then we can go over this tomorrow. You won't be able to post anything to them until Monday in any event.

[The_Debt_Man]

Ok will do

 

Am i right in thinking that your not saying the cpr i posted

it the wrong cpr but that i don't send a cpr at all?

[spamheed]

Just to clarify, the CPR 31.14 is to request documents referred to or mentioned by the claimant in their POC, since they haven't mentioned any of the important documents, then the CPR31.14 is not the way to go as they would be well within their rights to say "no"

 

Since what you need at the moment, is clarification of the contents of their POC, then a part 18 request would seem more appropriate - the relevant information can be found here - have a good read

http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/practice_directions/pd_part18.htm

 

I appreciate that this seems a little long winded and perhaps counter productive and you are wondering why someone doesn't just tell you directly what it is you need to do. The purpose of forums like this isn't to do it for you, it's to assist you and guide you, so that you learn and understand what it is you need to do

 

If this goes all the way, you need to understand what it is you need to do and why, quoting parrot fashion what you have been told on here will get you nowhere. The only way you know for certain that the advice you are being offered is to check it out and confirm it for yourself. Once you are clear in your head, you can make an informed choice over your next steps

 

CPR31.14 is the wrong route for the reasons already stated.

Edited December 11, 2010 by spamheed
the pixies in my keyboard make me spell words incorrectly

[Jasper1965]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?284830-Bryan-Carter-Solicitors-claim-for-old-catalogue-debt&p=3226598&viewfull=1#post3226598

[The_Debt_Man]

Wow thanks for all the replies guys

 

I in now way expected to come on here and be told exactly what i need to do.

 

Before even joining the forum i read loads of threads from people in the same situation as me and they all seemed to point in the direction of 1. acknowledge the claim online and say ill be defending the full amount , 2. send a cpr to BC, 3. send my defence to the court.

 

I’m new to all this and it was only reading thread after thread that i put together what i mentioned above.

 

What gets confusing is that you get someone that's really knowledgeable (well seems it....lol) like donkeyb who says to do what i was originally going to do (send cpr...etc) then you get someone like nicklea that also seems very knowledgeable that says not to send the cpr.

 

Also most of the links point to threads with people pointing to other threads and the cycle continues....lol

 

From the link that jasper1965 posted it seems that i should be going straight in with the defence.

 

I'm really confused and am going to do a bit more reading before i decide my next step.

 

Thanks again for all the replies so far

 

..

[nicklea]

The below is courtesy of jasper1965 and pt2537. As you say, in this case, probably the best thing to do is just to send the defence into the court straight away. As pt2537 says:-

 

you send the Court three copies of your defence

 

type a cover letter saying

 

Please find enclosed herewith the Defendants Defence. Please seal the enclosures, serve upon the Claimant and return surplus copies to the Defendant

 

That should be sufficient,

 

let the Court seal it before Carter gets it, that will make him piddle his pants heavily

 

 

In the XXX County Court

Claim number XXXXXX

Between:

 

Phoenix Recoveries - Claimant

 

and

 

xxxxxx - Defendant

 

Defence

 

1. The defendant has no knowledge of entering into any form of purchase agreement with the claimant and is embarrassed by the lack of detail supplied within the claim. Having no knowledge of any sales/purchase agreement for "goods" supplied and delivered to the defendant by the claimant the defendant is unable to either admit or deny anything which is not expressley denied within this defence.

 

2. The defendant denies ever purchasing goods from the claimant.

 

3. The defendant denies ever receiving goods from the claimant.

 

4. The defendant puts the claimant to strict proof of the following:-

(i) That the defendant purchased goods from the claimant.

(ii) The date(s) of any such alleged purchases.

(iii) The delivery times of these alleged purchases.

(iv) The delivery addresses of these alleged purchases.

(v) Proof of a purchase/sales contract between the defendant and the claimant.

 

5. Prima facie the Claimant knows or ought to know that there is no contract between the Defendant and the Claimant for the supply of goods as pleaded, therefore the Claimants claim is speculative and furthermore amounts to an absolute abuse of the process. Accordingly the Defendant avers the Claim ought to be struck out as an abuse as the Claimant holds no cause of action and therefore the Claimants conduct is unreasonable in bringing a claim without foundation.

 

6. The Defendant seeks the Claimants claim to be dismissed with an order as to costs thrown away in favour of the Defendant.

 

Statement of Truth

I, INSERT NAME HERE, the Defendant believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

Signed …………………………………………

Dated

[Jasper1965]

From the link that jasper1965 posted it seems that i should be going straight in with the defence.

 

From the Civil Procedure Rules:

Discontinuance and subsequent proceedings

 

38.7

 

A claimant who discontinues a claim needs the permission of the court to make another claim against the same defendant if –

(a) he discontinued the claim after the defendant filed a defence; and

 

(b) the other claim arises out of facts which are the same or substantially the same as those relating to the discontinued claim.

 

 

Please dont think the CPR route is wrong per se, it's just that defending early against the particulars of the claim means you can hit BC with a wasted costs order before the case is allocated, derive the protection afforded by CPR 38.7 and most importantly completely honestly deny all knowledge of ever receiving or purchasing goods from the claimant.

I'm not saying dont CPR the clowns but get a defence to the POC's lodged first to strengthen your position. We all know what these claims are for really but one must wonder why BC are not honest about them from inception of the claim. Maybe there's something to hide such as a CCA1974 regulated account without an agreement or lawful assignment who knows?

[The_Debt_Man]

Thanks for the replies everyone

 

Would that defence be better than the one i posted?

 

Ill let you all kow how i get on.

 

Thanks again for all the help ..

 

I've been doing a bit more reading and it definitely seems like its a doo idea to do both (defence and cpr) as from what I've been reading the more old bryan has to do the quicker he gives up...lol

 

Should i use the defence i originally posted or the one made by jasper1965 and pt2537?

 

The only reason I'm having a bit of doubt is that I've read a few threads that have won with the defence i posted up but the one jasper1965 and pt2537 posted are quite new so we don't know what the outcome with be using it...lol

 

Saying that i like the look of jasper1965/pt2537 one more as it seems more to the point.

 

Sorry if I'm going on a bit but I'm half asleep:roll:

 

Thanks again everyone

[The_Debt_Man]

Well guys......

 

I received a letter today from old Bryan saying that the claim

has been discontinued

I will be phoning the court tomorrow just to make

sure.

 

Thanks for all the help and support given

[nicklea]

congratulations - although as soon as you had put in a decent defence it was always likely that they would discontinue anyway. However, I know what it's like when you get the letter through the post and actually see it in black and white - a great feeling of relief.

[Jasper1965]

That's great to hear, well done!!

[DonkeyB]

Wasted costs time! Well done.

[the_shadow]

Congrats

 

Hopefully you got the defence in which would have worried BC no end... get that wasted costs order in now!

 

Will amend the thread title to ** Discontinued ** for now.

 

 

Well done to everyone, esp Nicklea

 

S.

[The_Debt_Man]

Thanks guys i couldn't have done it without you

 

I phoned the court and they said they haven't received

anything about it being discontinued but that could be because they are running

about a week behind.

 

I have been reading about wasted time charges but i wouldn't

know how i would go about it for what i can charge him for...etc.

Thanks again and happy new year to everyone

[the_shadow]

Ok, you can claim costs as these are claimable under CPR 38.6

 

Basically any costs you INCURRED up to the letter being received discontinuing can be claimed back, the lip hourly rate I believe is £9.25 and you can claim for any travelling/investigation/postage/printing etc etc.

 

This post should help:-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?134172-Sharpman-v-Nationwide-credit-card-services-***WON-WITH-WASTED-COSTS***&p=1818512&viewfull=1#post1818512

 

You need to be reasonable in your costs, and edit the letter to suit obviously.

 

S.

[the_shadow]

Oh and make yourself a nuisance of the court... you need to be certain that they filed a proper notice of discontinuance to the court.

 

 

S.