PCN Appealed & PAID - 1.5 years later bailiff turns up! Apparently didn't pay full amount!

[crocket]

I had a ticket in Jan 08. This was informally appealed with council and lost. Went to tribunal (as the ticket wording was not legal enough) and lost. Re-appealed the tribunal decision and it was dismissed. Copy of recording etc was rejected.

I was advised to contact MPs etc but I really couldn't be bothered as the fight had already been 6 months, and I'd must of had 100 pages of letters and evidence etc...

Genuinely paid what I thought was due, everywhere it says that the amount should be frozen to the 'pre-appeal stage' and paid the £25.

The cheque was banked in October sometime.

I haven't received any letters since and today the bailiff turns up demanding £250!

Rang the council and they say the amount was not paid in full, I asked them why they didn't contact me and they said 'we don't chase payments, it's up to you to pay in full' although I thought I did at the time.

What can I do to stop the bailiffs, reading other posts a TEC or N244???

I rang the bailiff up asking if the warrant was genuine, he said yes - asked him where it was issued and date and said he didn't have it on him... sounds dodgy…

Haven't received a court warrant through the post?? do these get posted out?

Hope you can help! To at least get the cost back down to the original £50 or £80 without paying the bailiff extra money

[Bazooka Boo]

AFAIK any court summons WILL get posted OR delivered by hand and signed for.

It sounds like you need to get onto the LGO ASAP, as well as you LA (council) and lodge a formal complaint about this.

http://www.lgo.org.uk/

 

A point to note is that Bailiffs CANNOT force their way into your home, they first need to have gained 'peaceful' entry to have any right to break into or force entry into your home.

[crocket]

Thank you for your advice, I will make a formal complaint and see what the outcome is with the LGO!

 

Can someone tell me whether the PE2 and PE3 forms is the right action for me to be taking?

 

I've got the local court to book me in for the signing of the documents on Tuesday. (Judge was gone when I went on Friday!).

[Jamberson]

After the tribunal hearing, the tribunal (PATAS or NPAS) should have written to you telling you the outcome of the case. This should specify what you have to do and how much needs to be paid.

 

You can challenge the bailiff warrant with a PE2/3. You do not need to make an appointment at the court. There is no summons and no court case and you do not need to see a judge. All you need to do is take the completed but unsigned forms into your local county court and at the reception desk they will witness you sign and date them, and give them a court stamp. (When you fill in the form, tick box 3 - appealed to the adjudicator but had no response.)

 

Then, post them to Northampton County Court.

 

The council in question may refuse to accept them. They can do this, unless there is a good reason why you did not settle the payment in full at the time, so make sure you explain what happened on the forms. But this is what you need to do for now, and see what happens.

 

I can't see the LGO will be of any use to you, unless the council has behaved improperly. My hunch is, you owed more than you realised, which isn't impropriety.

[green_and_mean]

After the tribunal hearing, the tribunal (PATAS or NPAS) should have written to you telling you the outcome of the case. This should specify what you have to do and how much needs to be paid.

 

You can challenge the bailiff warrant with a PE2/3. You do not need to make an appointment at the court. There is no summons and no court case and you do not need to see a judge. All you need to do is take the completed but unsigned forms into your local county court and at the reception desk they will witness you sign and date them, and give them a court stamp. (When you fill in the form, tick box 3 - appealed to the adjudicator but had no response.)

 

Then, post them to Northampton County Court.

 

The council in question may refuse to accept them. They can do this, unless there is a good reason why you did not settle the payment in full at the time, so make sure you explain what happened on the forms. But this is what you need to do for now, and see what happens.

 

I can't see the LGO will be of any use to you, unless the council has behaved improperly. My hunch is, you owed more than you realised, which isn't impropriety.

 

How can he possibly claim he had no response to his adjudication when in his first post he says he lost and paid £25, unless he is psychic he must have had a response.

[Jamberson]

Perhaps he can clarify that?

[crocket]

I've just gone through the documentation again, I did receive a response from the tribunal but nowhere does it state the amount due.

 

At the beginning of the Traffic Penalty Tribunal decision letter it states:-

 

If payment is required, please send payment to the council, not the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

 

This and any subsequent letters do not state a deadline or amount or even payment is required! Just says appeal is dismissed.

[green_and_mean]

I've just gone through the documentation again, I did receive a response from the tribunal but nowhere does it state the amount due.

 

At the beginning of the Traffic Penalty Tribunal decision letter it states:-

 

If payment is required, please send payment to the council, not the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

 

This and any subsequent letters do not state a deadline or amount or even payment is required! Just says appeal is dismissed.

 

To get to the adjudication stage you must have got an NTO which stated the correct penalty that was due as did the penalty charge explain the discount only lasted 14 days thats why its called a 'discount'.

[crocket]

So if I appeal at any stage I loose the right to the 50% discount? The 14 days grace period is not extended?

[green_and_mean]

So if I appeal at any stage I loose the right to the 50% discount? The 14 days grace period is not extended?

 

You cannot appeal until the NTO ie 28 days have passed so the discount will have expired. You can make informal representations before the discount expires and if you get rejected it will often be extended as a matter of goodwill but it is impossible to go to adjucication and still get the discount.

[crocket]

So that clears that up then! Due to no paperwork with amount AFTER the adjudication I thought it was £25 not £50.

[green_and_mean]

So that clears that up then! Due to no paperwork with amount AFTER the adjudication I thought it was £25 not £50.

 

Sadly no, the NTO should have clearly stated the penalty charge that was due which is logical otherwise there would be no point in having a discount and full amount if at any point you could still choose to pay 50%.

[Jamberson]

I've been to hearings where the adjudicator has obtained verbal agreement from both parties that the discount can be paid as full and final settlement. That may not have been the case here, but I am surprised if their letter did not stipulate "full charge" or some such statement, as it's not always a given. In any case, there is no appeals process for the adjudicator (as the OP found out), so I guess there's noting you can do now.

[green_and_mean]

I've been to hearings where the adjudicator has obtained verbal agreement from both parties that the discount can be paid as full and final settlement. That may not have been the case here, but I am surprised if their letter did not stipulate "full charge" or some such statement, as it's not always a given. In any case, there is no appeals process for the adjudicator (as the OP found out), so I guess there's noting you can do now.

 

Whilst not doubting your experiences, I cannot see why this would arise since you have to appeal the NTO which states the discount has gone, why a Council would take it all the way to adjudication and then decide to accept half the penalty is beyond me. Its also very unfair unless they do it to every appealant allowing some people to pay 50% and others not is far from being consistent.

[tomtubby]

I had a ticket in Jan 08. This was informally appealed with council and lost. Went to tribunal (as the ticket wording was not legal enough) and lost. Re-appealed the tribunal decision and it was dismissed. Copy of recording etc was rejected.

I was advised to contact MPs etc but I really couldn't be bothered as the fight had already been 6 months, and I'd must of had 100 pages of letters and evidence etc...

Genuinely paid what I thought was due, everywhere it says that the amount should be frozen to the 'pre-appeal stage' and paid the £25.

The cheque was banked in October sometime.

I haven't received any letters since and today the bailiff turns up demanding £250!

Rang the council and they say the amount was not paid in full, I asked them why they didn't contact me and they said 'we don't chase payments, it's up to you to pay in full' although I thought I did at the time.

What can I do to stop the bailiffs, reading other posts a TEC or N244???

I rang the bailiff up asking if the warrant was genuine, he said yes - asked him where it was issued and date and said he didn't have it on him... sounds dodgy…

Haven't received a court warrant through the post?? do these get posted out?

Hope you can help! To at least get the cost back down to the original £50 or £80 without paying the bailiff extra money

 

You should have received a Charge Certificate and an Order for Recovery. Did you receive these statutory notices? Have you moved address since the PCN was issued to you?

 

You need to telephone the Traffic Enforcement Centre on Monday ( on 08457 045 007) to ask for confirmation of the ADDRESS and THE DATE of the warrant. You need to ask them whether you would need to file a PE 2 & PE3 or the TE7 &TE9. Whichever form that you use you need to ENSURE that it is sent back to TEC by either email or FAX. Do NOT rely upon the post.

[crocket]

OK, so before christmas I filled out forms TE7 & TE9.

 

I've received a response back from a court officer saying the application has been rejected.

 

There is a letter attached from the council stating they posted out letters with dates.

 

Do I fill out form N244 (£40 hearing) or do I just give up and pay the bailiffs?

 

I posted out a cheque for £25 and £50 to the council but they returned them saying pay the bailiffs!

[Jamberson]

If, after the adjudication hearing, the council sent a Charge Certificate and then an Order for Recovery to your correct address, your case is looking weak.

 

If they did not, it's probably worth going for an N244.

[crocket]

On the letter from the council to TEC it says:

 

Charge Certificate sent 17/09/2009

 

A payment of £25 received on 30/09/2009 leaving balance of £50

 

Pre-Debt letter sent 10/12/2009

TE3/TE9 09/07/2010

 

The pre-debt letter according to them showed amount due & payment made...

[Jamberson]

If these docs went to the correct address, you will struggle with an N244. The Charge Certificate should have advised on an amount, and then follow-up documents were sent as well. I think you're on to a loser if you go for it, but it's very much your call of course.

[crocket]

Didn't move address or anything so they were sent to the correct address by the council.

 

What's £40 is not much compared to the £250 ... think I may try it

 

Can the bailiff just charge what they like, I can't see how they have racked up say a £50 amount due and put on £200 ontop for their visit?

[Jamberson]

Bailiffs should have a fixed scale of charges and you are entitled to a breakdown of what they are charging for, if you ask them. They will apply a fixed fee for each letter, knock on the door, etc. So far as I am aware their charging structure is not fixed by legislation, so in that sense they can charge what they like, provided they don't get ridiculous about it.

[green_and_mean]

Didn't move address or anything so they were sent to the correct address by the council.

 

What's £40 is not much compared to the £250 ... think I may try it

 

Can the bailiff just charge what they like, I can't see how they have racked up say a £50 amount due and put on £200 ontop for their visit?

 

Debt collection is a business with associated costs you are not just paying the wages of a baliff for the time spent at your house.